What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

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kingjr9000
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by kingjr9000 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:59 am

Fair enough. Although, if the beam sabers have mag fields and they're not repelling when they clash, then something is probably wrong somewhere. I do recall seeing one guy posting about how the particles could just be regular particles floating around at the moment and uses the electricity from the reactor to operate the gun, so maybe that could be what it is.

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BrentD15
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:59 am

The main problem I see with CE's Beam weaponry is the inconsistencies of it's depiction.

This is especially egregious in SEED Destiny, where positron cannons and rail cannons are depicted as regular beam weapons. And other times they're portrayed as they approx. should be. And this becomes especially heinous in regards to the plot.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by domino » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:20 am

One thing we know is that beams CAN block beams using various techniques - even so much so that beam sabers can block beams.

The jury still seems to be out on whether or not the ASSword is actually using a beam or is infact a laser hence why it may not be suitable for parrying beam sabers. This would explain why the Destiny's beam boomerangs can operate as beam sabers (though rarely - if ever - used for that)

The reason why CE pilots tend to block with their shields seems to be less due to necessity and moreso an attempt at parrying and creating an opportunity to counterattack. I think we see that the shield-blocking only works for so long since the solid shields can also be destroyed by beam sabers (e.g. Akatsuki's shield)

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BrentD15
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:57 pm

domino wrote:One thing we know is that beams CAN block beams using various techniques - even so much so that beam sabers can block beams.

The jury still seems to be out on whether or not the ASSword is actually using a beam or is infact a laser hence why it may not be suitable for parrying beam sabers. This would explain why the Destiny's beam boomerangs can operate as beam sabers (though rarely - if ever - used for that)

The reason why CE pilots tend to block with their shields seems to be less due to necessity and moreso an attempt at parrying and creating an opportunity to counterattack. I think we see that the shield-blocking only works for so long since the solid shields can also be destroyed by beam sabers (e.g. Akatsuki's shield)
I've heard that the beam sabers and the beam guns are two different beam types, and that the beam sabers lack a repulsion field, which is why the sabers can't parry other sabers, while being able to parry other beams.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Erisie » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:38 pm

BrentD15 wrote:The main problem I see with CE's Beam weaponry is the inconsistencies of it's depiction.

This is especially egregious in SEED Destiny, where positron cannons and rail cannons are depicted as regular beam weapons. And other times they're portrayed as they approx. should be. And this becomes especially heinous in regards to the plot.
Those problems derive from a much bigger one: we don't really know what is the nature of the "beams" used in the Cosmic Era. UC has mega particles: highly-energetic condensed Minovsky particles (sabers are just plasma inside a force field). 00 had the GN particles, a type of baryon.

With SEED, we don't know what the heck beams are. On the technical side of things, we know that:
- The Archangel, Minerva and Izumo-class have positron blaster cannons, which accelerate subatomic antimatter.
- The GINN uses an ion cannon (particle accelerator) as an early type of beam rifle.
- Freedom and other MS have plasma cannons, which are distinct from "beams" in and on themselves.
- Plenty of ships and MS use railguns, which are not beams, but regular slug-shooting weapons.
- On the larger side of things, we have GENESIS, which is basically a gamma-ray laser powered by a nuclear weapon (which, believe it or not, is based on a real-life proposal for a weapons system)

"Regular" beam weapons, such as those used by MS rifles/sabers and in ship weaponry are never defined in detail, not even by side materials (and trust me, I've looked for them in Japanese source books and the like) beyond being just "beams". Are they particles? A type of laser? Another state of matter?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by E08 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:07 am

BrentD15 wrote:I've heard that the beam sabers and the beam guns are two different beam types, and that the beam sabers lack a repulsion field, which is why the sabers can't parry other sabers, while being able to parry other beams.
AFAIK, that is fan theory based on how rare it is to see beam sabers clashing in the anime.
domino wrote:The jury still seems to be out on whether or not the ASSword is actually using a beam or is infact a laser hence why it may not be suitable for parrying beam sabers.
As Toysdream noted on the previous page, anti-ship swords are laser weapons. The Sword Strike's "Schwert Gewehr" has consistently been identified as having a laser blade in all the model kit manuals (NG 1/100, HG(perfect strike), MG and RG). This likely also applies to Sword Calamity's "Schwert Gewehr". All the model kits' manual also noted the same for Sword Impulse's "Excalibur", not to mention the word 'laser' is explicitly included in the weapon's full name.

Let's move on to anti-ship sword like weapons. The CGUE DEEP Arms' sword is a clear case of laser weapon, it is mentioned in the name and the weapon description. In fact, the weapon description supports that Sword Strike's "Schwert Gewehr" is a laser weapon, as DEEP Arms' sword was created using stolen EA technology and noted to have similar basic structure as the "Schwert Gewehr". GOUF Ignited's "Tempest" is known as a beam sword, but its weapon profile in the HG kit notes that it has laser blades just like Sword Impulse's "Excalibur". Then we have Destiny's "Arondight", it is known as a beam sword and all the model kits' manuals noted that it has a beam blade. At first glance, this seem to indicate that "Arondight" may have a different kind of blade from the anti-ship sword/anti-ship sword-like weapons, but things become kind of murky due to MG Launcher/Sword Strike. You see, that MG kit manual notes that Schwert Gewehr's blade is a high energy laser beam.

So even though "Arondight" is noted to have a beam blade, we cannot say if it is the same kind of beam as the beam saber, or that it has a laser beam blade like the other anti-ship sword/anti-ship sword-like weapon. Doesn't help that GOUF Ignited's "Tempest" Beam Sword is actually a laser weapon…

Perhaps, like the plasma beam cannon, laser weapon is just another flavor of beam weaponry. And that all beam weaponry have some kind of similar properties that enable anti-beam coating to be effectively against all of them, regardless of their differences in make up.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by domino » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:25 am

BrentD15 wrote: I've heard that the beam sabers and the beam guns are two different beam types, and that the beam sabers lack a repulsion field, which is why the sabers can't parry other sabers, while being able to parry other beams.
While rare, we do see beam sabers parrying - as pointed out in previous posts in this thread

Interesting info there E08. I wonder if beam sabers can clash with/parry laser-beam swords

Has there been a technical explanation about beam shields (there are different types in SEED right?) and how they work to deflect both ranged beam shots, laser beams and beam sabers?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by E08 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:26 pm

As with the other beam weapons, details on the beam shields and how they work are limited. From what i know and can find, the beam shields used by destiny, legend, SF, etc are based on/improved version of the Hyperion's "Armure Lumiere" mono-phase lightwave shield, which itself is based on/improved version of the Umbrella of Artemis. The ability of the beam shield and mono-phase lightwave shield to block both physical and beam attacks seem to be inherited from the Umbrella of Artemis, which is stated in the archived Gundam Official website to have such capabilities.

One of the improvements that the mono-phase lightwave shield has over the Umbrella of Artemis is that its user can shoot through the shield, which is why it is called a 'mono-phase' shield as it only blocks incoming attacks. This ability is explicitly stated to be present in the MX2351 beam shield used by Legend, Destiny and Dom Trooper. I believe the other model of beam shields based on the mono-phase lightwave shield also has this ability, i don't see why not when they share the same base technology… Also the beam shield has the ability to change their shape according to the battlefield conditions.

How the mono-phase lightwave shield technology ends up in ZAFT's hand is not really known, but the NG 1/100 Destiny and Legend model kit manual did wonder if the Eurasia Federation scientists are the ones who leak the technology out. Lowe Guele seems to be largely responsible for how MS outside the EA and ZAFT have beam shield technology (discounting SF, IJ & Dom Trooper since they are originally ZAFT design), he probably learn the technology when he created Dreadnought H, which is transplanted with a slightly modified version of the Hyperion's lightwave shield.

As for the EA's positron reflector, they are implied in the Seed Destiny Astray Photo novel to be also based on the mono-phase lightwave shield. The photo novel also showed that the positron reflector can be penetrated by the beam saber/beam lance form of the mono-phase lightwave shield. This is a weakness present in the mono-phase lightwave shield itself, and whether the beam shield has this weakness is unknown...

Finally, for the large beam barriers formed by Dreadnought's DRAGOONs and by Akatsuki's Shiranui pack's beam turrets, AFAIK they aren't really talk about much and so i couldn't find anything on them

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Product9
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:01 pm

But we've firmly established the beam sabers can block each other, right?

Or did I do all that research for nothing?*

*I did enjoy it though...

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BrentD15
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:21 pm

Product9 wrote:But we've firmly established the beam sabers can block each other, right?

Or did I do all that research for nothing?*

*I did enjoy it though...
Who knows?
The inconsistency of the source material certainly doesn't help. :P
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:55 am

BrentD15 wrote:
Product9 wrote:But we've firmly established the beam sabers can block each other, right?

Or did I do all that research for nothing?*

*I did enjoy it though...
Who knows?
The inconsistency of the source material certainly doesn't help. :P
What inconsistency? There are multiple instances of saber clashes in the show, one of which is in the intro (see my previously linked screenshot).

At the same time, there are *zero* instances of sabers passing through one another.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:23 pm

It occurs to me that the Seed series is generally very (ruthlessly!) consistent about how weapon effects are animated. A quick initial breakdown...


Pink: All beam blades, including beam boomerangs and anti-ship laser swords, with the exception of the Aegis and Strike Dagger.

Yellow: All projectile weapons, including machine guns and railguns.

Green: Most beam weapons, including high-energy beam rifles, phonon masers, and the main guns of warships. I believe the GINN's heavy ion cannon uses the same effect.

Red with white aura: The most powerful beam weapons. Examples from Seed include the Scylla multi-phase energy cannon (Aegis and Calamity), Agni hyper impulse cannon (Launcher Strike), Balaena plasma beam cannon (Freedom), 120cm high-energy beam cannon (METEOR), Zorn energy cannon (Raider), Hresvelgr guided plasma cannon (Forbidden). From Seed Destiny, there's the Callidus multi-phase beam cannon (Abyss, Chaos, Strike Freedom), Amfortas plasma beam cannon (Saviour), etc. And, of course, the Lohengrin positron blaster cannon.

I'm not sure about the Orthros high-energy long-range beam cannon (Gunner ZAKU Warrior), Kerberos high-energy long-range beam cannon (Blast Impulse), and M2000GX high-energy long-range beam cannon (Destiny). It would be a little odd if they used the red-and-white effect since previous "high-energy beam cannons" were green, but let's check that if we can.


Initial conclusions? Well, laser swords and beam sabers/swords are animated exactly the same way, which suggests they may all use the same technology. How could you generate a laser blade that stops at a specific point in mid-air? Maybe it has something to do with Mirage Colloid - the kit manuals do say that ZAFT had to redesign its beam sabers after Mirage Colloid was banned.

Interestingly, of the few ranged weapons whose technological basis is specified in the name itself, the plasma beam cannons (Balaena, Amfortas, and Hresvelgr) all use the red-and-white effect. We can be pretty sure the Hresvelgr is genuinely a plasma weapon because the Forbidden can curve the beams electromagnetically. The Lohengrin, of course, is also a charged particle beam that uses the same effect.

It's not clear to me whether there's actually a technology difference between the two types of beam, though. Starting with the METEOR, we do have some examples of so-called "high-energy beam cannons" that use the red-and-white plasma effect. It's possible that ZAFT doesn't really care about the terminology distinction, and applies this term to plasma cannons and green-beam weapons interchangeably.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:32 pm

toysdream wrote:I'm not sure about the Orthros high-energy long-range beam cannon (Gunner ZAKU Warrior), Kerberos high-energy long-range beam cannon (Blast Impulse), and M2000GX high-energy long-range beam cannon (Destiny). It would be a little odd if they used the red-and-white effect since previous "high-energy beam cannons" were green, but let's check that if we can.
All three of those do indeed use the red-and-white beam effect.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:49 pm

Which is interesting given that the Calamity's Schlag high-energy long-range beam cannons fire standard green beams. Perhaps ZAFT just isn't that finicky about weapon naming...

What about the Buster Gundam's hyper impulse long-range sniper rifle? I'm having a hard time finding pics of that in use - another unloved weapon.

Anyway, putting aside vague terms like "high-energy", we have a few confirmed examples of plasma (and antimatter) beams that are all animated with the red-and-white effect, and one example of a "heavy ion" cannon that uses a green effect. So it's possible that all the other beam weapons fall into these two categories as well.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:03 pm

IIRC, the Buster's beam rifle, both used singly and in its combined form(with the beam rifle barrel facing forward) fires standard green beams.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Wingnut » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:09 am

Dark Duel wrote:IIRC, the Buster's beam rifle, both used singly and in its combined form(with the beam rifle barrel facing forward) fires standard green beams.
Separate is indeed green, however the combined shot is in fact yellow of all colors.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:05 am

Well, there are two combined forms - shotgun and sniper rifle, depending on which order they're combined in. Are they both yellow?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Deathzealot » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:24 am

If I remember right one is a straight yellow shot and the other is not even a beam but a scatter like shot.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:02 am

I can only tell you how it is in video games like the Versus Series, since I haven't seen Seed in ages. But in those games, both the Buster's regular beam rifle and the combined long-range sniper rifle are green. The gunlauncher is depicted as a shotgun in both the regular and combined versions, but I know that's not quite accurate to the show.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:51 am

toysdream wrote:Well, there are two combined forms - shotgun and sniper rifle, depending on which order they're combined in. Are they both yellow?

-- Mark
Combined beam is yellow. Made a gif from SEED ep45 to showcase:

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Pew. Bing.

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