What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

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toysdream
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:43 pm

The Hyperion's "magazines" are supposed to be power cartridges or power cells, which basically sound like batteries to me. At the end of the X Astray comic, Canard attaches a nuclear reactor to his "Super Hyperion", and at that point he removes the magazine from his beam submachine gun and replaces it with an adapter that plugs directly into the reactor. So it seems pretty clear that these power cartridges were storing electricity, not beam particles of some kind.

As for the anti-ship swords, I believe these are all laser weapons rather than plasma-in-magnetic-field devices - hence the different beam color, and the fact that the beam is capped at both ends. So a collision between an anti-ship sword and a beam saber is going to be an entirely different kind of effect.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Antares » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:03 pm

Drats, on both counts. :D
I confirm the linkage with the adapter going in to replace the mag. Once more CE manages to amaze me: a beam submachine gun that uses batteries like ammo. It's... a novel idea.
With the swords, I don't recall previously hearing that they'd have lasers, but I do bow to your knowledge on this stuff, Mark.
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BrentD15
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:39 am

Antares wrote:I'm throwing a few ideas into the ring after reading this discussion, because CE beam weapons have been a topic of discussion, debate and despair here from the start of GS. :mrgreen:

I dislike the level of argumentation by the YouTube poster (Whacky) already. And he seems to be taking this way too seriously for his own good (he's apparently also redesigned the Destiny into a new form hat he considers vastly better).
What's wrong with trying to make a bad design good? :)
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Antares » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:14 pm

BrentD15 wrote:What's wrong with trying to make a bad design good? :)
Because there was so much wrong with GSD that a revamped Destiny would hardly put a dent in it? :mrgreen: But to be fair, we've all been there, ranting at the TV when what we saw unfold... uh, unfolded. Just felt like the guy was taking this a bit too seriously. :P
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:21 pm

BrentD15 wrote:What's wrong with trying to make a bad design good? :)
Nothing - I've done the same thing myself *gazes fondly at the shelf prominently displaying heavily modified MG Destiny Gundam*
At least, not IMO.
Antares wrote:A precursor of beam shield tech would, on the other hand, seem more plausible than Shinn tossing the shield miraculously in the correct angle so that the shot bounces off, rather than is absorbed. Regarding the ban of Geschmeidig Panzer, we've seen that CE treaties are rarely worth the paper they're printed on. ZAFT could've re-engineered EA tech and called it something else, and applied it in a less conspicuous way.
With respect, you're pointing out an issue - Shinn launching his shield and bouncing a shot off the shield at precisely the right angle to hit the Freedom - but neither of the hypotheses you mention actually addresses that issue in its entirety.

The issue here is this:
1. The shot is bouncing off rather than being absorbed/dissipated.
2. In this specific instance, the angle of the shot striking the shield was such that when it bounced off, it hit the Freedom's shoulder

Now, the hypothetical presence of either a precursor to beam shield technology or a Geschmeidig Panzer-esque system on that shield only addresses the first of those points - if such a thing is present(and that's IF), then it could address the green "flash" being more than simple Rule of Cool in action as well as the fact that shots bounce off the Impulse's shield rather than being dissipated as is usually the case.

It does not, however, address the fact that the shot bounced off the shield at the right angle and trajectory to hit the Freedom. That is entirely dependent on the angle and trajectory of the beam at the moment of impact - and the pilot has a lot to do with that.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Antares » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:35 pm

Dark Duel wrote:Now, the hypothetical presence of either a precursor to beam shield technology or a Geschmeidig Panzer-esque system on that shield only addresses the first of those points - if such a thing is present(and that's IF), then it could address the green "flash" being more than simple Rule of Cool in action as well as the fact that shots bounce off the Impulse's shield rather than being dissipated as is usually the case.

It does not, however, address the fact that the shot bounced off the shield at the right angle and trajectory to hit the Freedom. That is entirely dependent on the angle and trajectory of the beam at the moment of impact - and the pilot has a lot to do with that.
On the latter point, I fully agree. I thought it was stylistically presented as evidence of how much Shinn had improved, and how much natural talent he had. Did he plan for it or strictly improvise is probably also up for debate.

The technical side of it was pure conjecture of a possible reworked tech similar to GP had been added to give the shield more durability (and explain the green flash as something else than Rule of Cool). But admittedly this gets us nowhere if there are no official specs to go with here or more convincing animated scenes...

Still on the beam sabers, I wonder if the Red Frame's Gerbera clashes with a beam saber ever in the manga...
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Deathzealot
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Deathzealot » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:30 pm

Antares wrote:Still on the beam sabers, I wonder if the Red Frame's Gerbera clashes with a beam saber ever in the manga...
Interesting Question... I don't remember and I don't have the Mangas on hand. Anyone else?

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Amion
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Amion » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:49 pm

From what I understand, asking for evidence from the Astrays would probably cause more harm to this discussion than good.

Since I know someone who's actually read those things, *Starts the Shadowcell theme music*, I'll leave it to them to extrapolate.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:29 am

Antares wrote:
BrentD15 wrote:What's wrong with trying to make a bad design good? :)
Because there was so much wrong with GSD that a revamped Destiny would hardly put a dent in it? :mrgreen: But to be fair, we've all been there, ranting at the TV when what we saw unfold... uh, unfolded. Just felt like the guy was taking this a bit too seriously. :P
Or he shows a lot of passion towards being a Gundam fan. :)
Antares wrote:On the latter point, I fully agree. I thought it was stylistically presented as evidence of how much Shinn had improved, and how much natural talent he had. Did he plan for it or strictly improvise is probably also up for debate.
Especially considering how badly they messed up his character in the second half of the series.
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Mimeblade
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Mimeblade » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:52 am

My main issue with Destiny is that it was pretty much a slimmed down Perfect Strike as far as I was concerned.

---Giant Sword: check
---Big Cannon: check
---Rifle: check
---High Maneuverability: check
---Beam Boomerang: check

The only things "good" it had going for it were the beam shields and palm cannons.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by monster » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:05 am

Mimeblade wrote:My main issue with Destiny is that it was pretty much a slimmed down Perfect Strike as far as I was concerned.
Why is that an issue?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:45 am

monster wrote:
Mimeblade wrote:My main issue with Destiny is that it was pretty much a slimmed down Perfect Strike as far as I was concerned.
Why is that an issue?
Because that's pretty much what it is for the most part.
And old design to replace the Strike Gundam from the previous series that was later modified and modernized.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by monster » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:22 am

BrentD15 wrote:Because that's pretty much what it is for the most part.
And old design to replace the Strike Gundam from the previous series that was later modified and modernized.
Ok, but my question is why that is an issue. I wasn't questioning whether or not it's true.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Enchanter468 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:17 am

Figured I'd drop by this thread again and see what was up.
monster wrote:Ok, but my question is why that is an issue. I wasn't questioning whether or not it's true.
It really depends on how much value you place on the originality of the machine's weapons loadout. It does have the same weapons/equipment as the Perfect Strike (beam shields, wings of light and Palma Fiocinas aside), but whether you consider that a problem is entirely a matter of personal preference.

Personally, while I had a lot of problems with Gundam SEED Destiny, the mechanical designs weren't among them. Well, okay, I was annoyed by how ZAFT abruptly dropped its original designs (GINN, CGUE, GuAIZ, etc.) and replaced them with Zeon ripoffs, because Lord knows we don't have enough Zaku, Gouf and Dom model kits out there, and we absolutely need at least four or five more.

Well, anyway, the non-Zeon mechanical designs were not among my problems with the show. My problems were more plot-related (the second half of the series in particular), but I shall go no further on that so as to avoid a rant.

Anyway, about something mentioned earlier...
Antares wrote:This would also explain why an ASSword gets snapped by a beam saber; the angle where the magnetic fields meet all too easily slips the opposing beam saber along the physical side of the ASSword.
toysdream wrote:As for the anti-ship swords, I believe these are all laser weapons rather than plasma-in-magnetic-field devices - hence the different beam color, and the fact that the beam is capped at both ends. So a collision between an anti-ship sword and a beam saber is going to be an entirely different kind of effect.
While Gundamofficial does support the laser assertion, I've always felt that contradicts the animation. In SEED we see the Schwert Gewehr stopped at least once by a shield and once by a beam saber (both in Phase-29). If the beam blade on an anti-ship sword is a laser, then it should be both unblockable and impossible to block with (since the laser blade will pass right through the plasma of a saber blade and ought to carve through a shield, absorptive paint or no). My personal hypothesis is that the blade element is a plasma arc, like what we see in beam sabers. The reason it's capped is presumably to allow for the metal stabbing element at the front end.

As for how Athrun cut through the Arondight, the image that drove Whackymodder to madness? I think the solution has nothing to do with the internal technology of the Cosmic Era and everything to do with deadlines and stock footage.

From what I've read, by the time we hit Destiny Phase-50, Chiaki Morosawa was extremely ill. They may not have known she had cancer at this stage, but the illness was nonetheless making her very tired at pretty much all times. The result was that her scripts tended to arrive late, leaving very little time for the crucial storyboarding and animation steps. The result was that stock footage/animation had to be used even more during the final episodes than it was in the previous parts of the series. Thus, Athrun vs. Shinn had to use as much stock footage as possible to make the deadline set for the episode (contrast with Kira vs. Rau at the end of SEED which employs mostly new animation with only a few stock shots here and there).

What does this have to do with the Infinite Justice cutting the wrong way through the Arondight? Well, while the shot of the bisected anti-ship sword flying apart is new, the all-important shot of Athrun swinging his weapon in for the blow is stock footage. Specifically, it's a shot lifted from the end of the Second Battle of Orb in Phase-43 (42 in the remaster). In its original, non-stock incarnation, the shot is of Athrun swinging the Infinite Justice's blade upward, cutting off the Destiny's right arm just below the elbow.

Fast forward to Phase-50 (48 in the remaster) and all they do is swap out the blue sky behind the IJ for black space, but otherwise the shot is exactly the same. In this new context, it no longer makes any sense, but it's the closest stock footage they could find to what they need.

And thus, whackymodder is driven to ranting (well, ranting even more), and this entire thread is born, all to save a few frames of animation.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by monster » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:22 am

Enchanter468 wrote:As for how Athrun cut through the Arondight, the image that drove Whackymodder to madness? I think the solution has nothing to do with the internal technology of the Cosmic Era and everything to do with deadlines and stock footage.

From what I've read, by the time we hit Destiny Phase-50, Chiaki Morosawa was extremely ill. They may not have known she had cancer at this stage, but the illness was nonetheless making her very tired at pretty much all times. The result was that her scripts tended to arrive late, leaving very little time for the crucial storyboarding and animation steps. The result was that stock footage/animation had to be used even more during the final episodes than it was in the previous parts of the series. Thus, Athrun vs. Shinn had to use as much stock footage as possible to make the deadline set for the episode (contrast with Kira vs. Rau at the end of SEED which employs mostly new animation with only a few stock shots here and there).

What does this have to do with the Infinite Justice cutting the wrong way through the Arondight? Well, while the shot of the bisected anti-ship sword flying apart is new, the all-important shot of Athrun swinging his weapon in for the blow is stock footage. Specifically, it's a shot lifted from the end of the Second Battle of Orb in Phase-43 (42 in the remaster). In its original, non-stock incarnation, the shot is of Athrun swinging the Infinite Justice's blade upward, cutting off the Destiny's right arm just below the elbow.

Fast forward to Phase-50 (48 in the remaster) and all they do is swap out the blue sky behind the IJ for black space, but otherwise the shot is exactly the same. In this new context, it no longer makes any sense, but it's the closest stock footage they could find to what they need.

And thus, whackymodder is driven to ranting (well, ranting even more), and this entire thread is born, all to save a few frames of animation.
Actually, while the Infinite Justice did make an upward swing, it was also made diagonally from the side, which means it did not necessarily hit the Arondight from below. As long as the saber managed to hit from the side, it will still make the cut. In fact, depending on the relative position of the Arondight, the beam saber could still have made a cut from the top on its return downward swing.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:52 pm

Hey guys, I'm new here (I think)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this, since it still seems to be a topic of discussion. Watching the episode (HD Remaster, so maybe something changed since the original broadcast) it really looks to me like Athrun cut Destiny's sword from behind. Maybe I'll make a slowed down GIF if I can figure out how to do that.

Edit: Yep, the sword was cut from behind. This is evidence by the front portion of the sword rotating counter-clockwise (from the viewer's perspective) from the impact along its spine. If it had been cut in the front, it would be rotating clockwise. I linked the GIF I made below:

Proof

Edit 2:

Noticed a pretty definitive example of a saber clash in the show. The end of the third intro (Destiny, HD Remaster) has a still image of Strike Freedom's saber being blocked by Destiny's beam sword.

Screenshot

Really, it kind of amazes me the lengths some fans will go to trying to defend, or condemn, something. There are a lot of crazy theories, speculation, and headcanons, but all that is needed is to just look at the show. The answers are right there...

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by kingjr9000 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:52 am

It has been a while since i watched seed, but would it be possible for the beams to be "hard light" like in halo?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:45 pm

As a general rule, IMO it is a bad idea to try to explain the made-up sci-fi tech of a fictional universe by comparing it to the made-up sci-fi tech of an entirely different, unrelated universe, especially when the latter is not only mostly unexplained, but also extraterrestrial in origin.
And what exactly is, in scientific terms, "hard light" supposed to be, anyway? What's the explanation for that technology? As far as I know from my own limited experience of the HALO franchise, there isn't one.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by kingjr9000 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:40 pm

Hmm, I probably should have used a different word instead of "hard light". I should have probably used "solid light" or "photonic molecule". But there was an article a few years ago about how some MIT and Harvard scientist were finally able to get light to act as a solid. So much so that once they finally get the process down to an art, they could probably create 3D crystals and structures out of solid light. I'll post an article below about it. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding it?

http://phys.org/news/2013-09-scientists ... -seen.html

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:50 pm

I very, very much doubt it. And while it's a theory that could be interesting in other contexts, in the context of this particular discussion, it's an unnecessarily complex addition to an already tricky topic.

As I recall, beam saber blades are essentially a mass of plasma held in place by a magnetic field.
Some close-range beam weapons, such as the Schwert Gewehr(Sword Strike, Sword Calamity) and Excalibur(Sword Impulse), have been referred to as "laser" weapons, though I am somewhat skeptical of this, myself.

As far as long-range beam weapons(beam rifles, etc...), I don't think there's ever been much of anything said on the subject - hence the discussion. All we can say with relative certainty is that they are almost certainly not lasers.
The GINN's big beam gun was specifically identified as an "ion cannon". Thus we can say with reasonable certainty that it is a particle-beam gun that fires ionized atoms of some element at very high(though sub-light) speed.
Despite the differing nomenclature, I would be strongly inclined to believe that the beam rifles of Alliance mobile suits, as well as those of later ZAFT mobile suits, work more or less the same way, and may in fact merely be compact, more energy-efficient versions of the same technology.

The so-called "positron cannons" are a whole other matter entirely, but that can of worms has already been opened before and I'm not going to get into it.
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