What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

[Wingnut]

It's also possible that much energy coming at them overwhelmed the ability of the coils to reflect the beam back or anywhere else as I doubt Izumi or anyone else intended for Cagalli to stand in the way of a blast like that. Thus settling for dissipating the blast was the best they could do while still doing their job of keeping suit and pilot from becoming assorted bits and pieces.

[toysdream]

This kind of begs the question of what CE beams are actually made of, but the official explanation that the Akatsuki's armor is made up of both "beam-diffracting lattice layers" and "critical plasma suppression layers" always led me to think that it's actually a combination of two distinct systems for dealing with different types of beams. The diffracting lattice would presumably work against lasers and other optical beams, bending them back around against the attacker; the plasma suppression would work against charged particle beams, of which a positron blaster would likely be an extreme case.

Depending on how the anti-plasma system works, this could explain that last scene. If the plasma is absorbed, stored, and then re-emitted rather than reflected outright, the Akatsuki simply may not have enough storage capacity to hold the entire blast.

-- Mark

[Enchanter468]

IIRC The Akatsuki was shot in the face at one point during the Orb battle and the shot simply dissipated.

I believe you're referring to the beginning of Phase-42 (40 or 41 in the remaster), where after Shinn sees his beam cannon shot bounce off the Akatsuki's torso and come back at him, he decides to see if the head is more vulnerable (using his beam rifle for the second shot). The particle beam does not dissipate; it bounces off, though it is not sent back at Shinn. Around the end of the previous episode, the Akatsuki gets hit with two rifle beams from unseen ZAFT machines, one in the shoulder and one on the leg. These beams also bounce off without being sent back whence they came, which leads me to believe that only beams that hit the mobile suit's torso are sent back at the shooter.

[BrentD15]

And there's the part about the reflection armor not working against beam blades (i.e., Shinn severs one of the Akatsuki Gundam's arms with a Beam Boomerang).

How does a stream of beam particles hitting the armor not bounce off it from a beam blade?

[Enchanter468]

And there's the part about the reflection armor not working against beam blades (i.e., Shinn severs one of the Akatsuki Gundam's arms with a Beam Boomerang).

How does a stream of beam particles hitting the armor not bounce off it from a beam blade?

The answer's going to depend on what kind of system is being used. If we're going with the micro-coils, then the explanation is that when you're deflecting a particle beam fired from a gun somewhere, then its magnetic field is already decaying, and as such the repulsion system trying to bend the beam doesn't encounter significant resistance other than the particles' own momentum.

With a beam saber, on the other hand, the plasma is held in a constantly renewed magnetic containment field, meaning that it's fighting you as you attempt to bend it back.

If we're going with the diffraction lattices and critical plasma layers explanation, then I'm going to have to get back to you on that after doing a little more research into what a "critical plasma layer" might be.

[Enchanter468]

Well, I never thought I'd learn this much about plasma physics.

Anyway, before I talk about the Yata-no-Kagami again, let's lay some groundwork.

There is something called an electromagnetic electron wave (henceforth referred to as an EE wave). This is a wave that propagates through plasma. It has a magnetic field component and the main thing that moves in this wave is the free electrons in the plasma.

At low densities, an EE wave is essentially a light wave modified by the plasma, and it has a low frequency, at least by the standards of light. As you increase the density of the plasma, the frequency of the EE wave increases, until you reach what is called "critical plasma density", at which point the EE wave frequency matches the frequency of incoming light.

The end result of this is that critical plasma reflects light. In fact, that link MythSearcher left earlier, regarding how it takes a 5T magnetic field to contain plasma that will stop a laser, specifically refers to this phenomenon.

Next up: diffraction. This is a host of effects that occur when waves encounter an aperture with a diameter comparable to their wavelength, and can be seen with water waves, sound waves and light waves.

You can use diffraction to spread out and disperse energy as well as bend waves (though energy will be lost in the process).

As it turns out, matter (at the atomic and subatomic levels) has wavelike properties, and as such, particles like electrons and neutrons can be diffracted.

So, what does this mean for the Yata-no-Kagami? Well, there's a diffracting lattice layer and a critical plasma layer, presumably beneath/inside of it. An incoming laser beam strikes the lattice, and the apertures cause the light to spread out, lessening its otherwise destructive force and reducing damage to the armor itself. Then the light hits the critical plasma layer and bounces off, and on its way back out, discovers yet another use for diffraction: focusing waves.

Notice in the image how, after the waves pass around the sphere (the same effect can be achieved by waves passing through two slits), they overlap and (in the right areas) add to each other, producing a narrow cone on the right side of the image that is at least as intense as the original beam. The same effect can be seen here.

Thus, while some energy is lost, the laser emerges from the YnK armor as a beam, rather than just a diffuse burst, and still has the power to kill an enemy (though at shorter range than it had before entering the armor).

Because matter has wave-like properties at the very small scale, a particle beam could also be affected by this system, the important difference being that the apertures in the lattice would need to be smaller to diffract stuff like electrons. It's possible that the Akatsuki uses some manner of microtech or nanotech to allow the apertures in the lattice layer to change size, or that there are several lattice layers with differently sized apertures for lasers or particle beams.

As for the plasma, I think it can bounce particle beams back, but I'm not sure how it does this, though hypotheses are:

A. The wavelength of the EE wave is matched to the de Broglie wavelength of the incoming particles and thus repels them.
B The oscillating magnetic field (recall that an EE wave has a magnetic field component) snags the particles and then throws them back when it reverses.
C. The electrons oscillating within the plasma result in the plasma rapidly switching its electrostatic charge (when the electrons move away and leave the ions exposed, it's positive; when the electrons come to the near side, it's negative). When the particles arrive, they are either immediately repelled by the plasma (which would have the same charge they do) or are at first grabbed by the opposite charge in the plasma, and then fired back out when the charge reverses.

On the way back out, the particle beam would presumably be refocused the same way the laser would be. Note that since diffraction won't refocus all of the particles, some will come out as a sort of flare, which dovetails rather nicely with the flash of light we see when the Yata-no-Kagami reflects a beam off its torso.

[toysdream]

That's cool! I confess, when I translated the Akatsuki text, I had no idea what "critical plasma suppression" meant - turns out it's actually completely relevant, at least when it comes to deflecting lasers.

As you say, this doesn't tell us how it deflects plasma and charged particle beams. I guess we already know that a powerful magnetic field (like the Forbidden Gundam's force field) can at least curve particle beams, so it's not impossible that it could deflect them outright. But then, why doesn't everybody do it?

Time to read up on those "anti-beam coating" shields, I guess. The MG Freedom kit manual says that "while the anti-beam shields carried by the GAT-X series used a resonance phenomenon to divert beams, the Freedom's one incorporates an improved version of the laminated armor technology that was developed mainly for warship armor." The mention of "resonance" does suggest the kind of wavelength-matching you're talking about.

So yeah, excellent work, Enchanter468! You may well be on the right track here.


EDIT: And from the Gunbarrel Dagger kit manual: "This anti-beam armor shield uses the energy of incoming beams to induce a resonance function in the armor material, forming a molecular-level mirror that diffuses and reflects the beam, reducing its destructive force. The armor material degrades easily, and its short effective lifespan is a shortcoming."

-- Mark

[toysdream]

Aaaand here's a detailed explanation on the "anti-beam shield" from the MG Aile Strike kit manual. If you can make sense of this, you're wiser than I am!

Standard equipment for the GAT series (except for the Buster, whose primary purpose is out-range attacks), in order to deal with the beam weapons that are the weak point of PS armor. As well as being coated with special paint that diffuses and absorbs beams, the parts themselves are made from a composite alloy of steel materials, whose natural frequencies produce a special resonance phenomenon. As a result, the surface has a unique tread pattern processed in micro units, which is constantly undergoing minute vibrations and changes the movement direction of incoming beams. It is said that a certain member of the Alliance leadership who secretly investigated its MS development proposed that the entire body of the MS should use this material, but the technical officer who was briefing him gently informed him that this was impossible since the metal fatigue of this vibrating steel material was almost twice as severe as that of normal alloys, and its compatibility with PS armor was also extremely poor. It was later credibly rumored that these two people were William Sutherland and Murrue Ramius.

-- Mark

[Enchanter468]

Aaaand here's a detailed explanation on the "anti-beam shield" from the MG Aile Strike kit manual. If you can make sense of this, you're wiser than I am!

Standard equipment for the GAT series (except for the Buster, whose primary purpose is out-range attacks), in order to deal with the beam weapons that are the weak point of PS armor. As well as being coated with special paint that diffuses and absorbs beams, the parts themselves are made from a composite alloy of steel materials, whose natural frequencies produce a special resonance phenomenon. As a result, the surface has a unique tread pattern processed in micro units, which is constantly undergoing minute vibrations and changes the movement direction of incoming beams. It is said that a certain member of the Alliance leadership who secretly investigated its MS development proposed that the entire body of the MS should use this material, but the technical officer who was briefing him gently informed him that this was impossible since the metal fatigue of this vibrating steel material was almost twice as severe as that of normal alloys, and its compatibility with PS armor was also extremely poor. It was later credibly rumored that these two people were William Sutherland and Murrue Ramius.

-- Mark

I think this is an example of how an explanation can get too clever for its own good. I think what they're going for is quantum reflection by the creation of a ridged atomic mirror. Basically, a ridged mirror is a surface covered in really tiny ridges that are very close together, which will reflect atoms at low angles of incidence (referred to as "grazing angles"). I've heard that there are also ways of using quantum reflection to reflect charged particles as well.

I think the idea here is that the shield surface has a shifting set of ridges, presumably with even smaller ridges on them, that reflect particles up to around 90 degrees. No mirror is 100% efficient, which is presumably where that absorptive paint comes into play.

Why do I say this is too clever for its own good? Well, whoever wrote that piece went so far to explain how the shield deflects charged particle beams that they never bothered to explain how it stands up to the hot plasma blade of a beam saber, much less how it takes the full force of a ship-killing antimatter beam without being blasted apart.

Much though I hate to say this, given that I don't know how canonical model kits are, I still think my permanent magnet idea fits what we see in the anime better.

[toysdream]

As far as I'm concerned, information in the kit manual isn't really official - that term's reserved for the filmed works themselves, as per Sunrise. (So in my personal head-canon, funnels physically bounce off the Nu Gundam's barrier because it's literally a beam barrier just like that generated by a beam shield - rather than a beam-deflecting I-field combined with a funnel-jamming interference effect, as the kit manuals would have it.) I agree that the explanation for the Gundam Seed shields is too clever by half!

That said, the notion that there's something special about the material of the shield - rather than just an ablative coating, as in the U.C. series - does explain why the call these "anti-beam shields". And the notion of making the whole mobile suit out of that stuff may account for the Akatsuki's special armor.

It's also interesting that the Freedom's shield is said to have a laminated armor function, unlike the GAT-X series. In the Archangel, its laminated armor absorbs beam energy and distributes it across the entire hull to reduce the damage, and this accounts for the Archangel's streamlined shape. Supposedly the Freedom's laminated armor shield is derived from the hull of ZAFT's Laurasia-class warships, which suggests that these streamlined ships also have laminated armor, and that the Archangel may in fact be borrowing a ZAFT technology.

-- Mark

[BrentD15]

As far as I'm concerned, information in the kit manual isn't really official - that term's reserved for the filmed works themselves, as per Sunrise. (So in my personal head-canon, funnels physically bounce off the Nu Gundam's barrier because it's literally a beam barrier just like that generated by a beam shield - rather than a beam-deflecting I-field combined with a funnel-jamming interference effect, as the kit manuals would have it.) I agree that the explanation for the Gundam Seed shields is too clever by half!

-- Mark

I find that highly problematic, because the kit manual is supposed to give us the specific details of how the technology works that isn't explained in the animations.

What's the point of giving us the details in the kits if the animation prioritization won't consider them "official" anyway? Might as well just give a list of the weapons and technology, and not even describe them or how they work.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not fair to discredit the manual kits if they won't mean jack ZOINKS.

[toysdream]

I do pay attention to the manuals - after all, I've wasted years of my life translating them for people! But if they claim something transparently silly (like the Nu Gundam barrier thing), I don't feel the need to fret about it, because that kind of supplemental material is always going to have second-class status as far as Sunrise is concerned.

Besides, the side materials often contradict each other. That's why we still have no idea what the Strike Freedom uses as a power source.

-- Mark

[Enchanter468]

It's also interesting that the Freedom's shield is said to have a laminated armor function, unlike the GAT-X series. In the Archangel, its laminated armor absorbs beam energy and distributes it across the entire hull to reduce the damage, and this accounts for the Archangel's streamlined shape. Supposedly the Freedom's laminated armor shield is derived from the hull of ZAFT's Laurasia-class warships, which suggests that these streamlined ships also have laminated armor, and that the Archangel may in fact be borrowing a ZAFT technology.

-- Mark

I noticed that earlier, and it might account for why the Freedom and Justice's shields have what appear to be cooling vents on them. If you're using laminated armor, then that's only going to function until the heat builds up to a critical level, and using open cycle cooling would be one way to cool the shield down after it's had one too many particle beams or plasma blades slam into it.

This also means it's a really good thing it was the Strike, rather than the Freedom, that stopped the Lohengrin beam in Phase-49.

As for whether laminated armor was originally a ZAFT invention, I'm not sure. I had heard that ZAFT ships had a thin layer of anti-beam coating applied to the hull (clearly not enough to stop a direct hit, but a decent defense against grazing shots). Of course it could be that the Laurasia has different armor from what the Nazca uses, but then I would have expected the Gamow to hold up better when it was getting shot by the Menelaos in Phase-13.

Maybe the early Laurasia version is more primitive or has a less efficient cooling system than the kind on Archangel-class ships?

[Enchanter468]

One thing I forgot about earlier.

Spoiler

It was asked why the Yata-no-Kagami would reflect rifle and cannon beams but not beam sabers. Well, here's my hypothesis.

A saber blade in the Cosmic Era is hot plasma contained in a powerful magnetic field. The magnetic field is probably the single most important thing here, because it's likely the spanner in the works when it comes to the YnK. Because of the containing field, the plasma resists diffraction, holding itself together as it burns its way through the diffraction lattice. When it reaches the critical plasma, the saber's containing field is going to ruin that too, either by interfering with the EE wave in the plasma, or simply by distorting the plasma itself (pushing/pulling it out of the way).

Since we're discussing Cosmic Era technology and shields have come up in the last few posts, does anyone know if there's anything special about the Impulse's shield? I ask because of a structure I've noticed on it.

As you can see here (apologies for linking directly to MAHq), there's a raised structure in the center of the shield, visible only when the shield expands. This raised object has eight openings around its circumference.

I didn't think this was of any significance, but then I recently noticed what looks like the exact same structure on the Forbidden Gundam's shields.

Does anybody know if this object does anything special?

[monster]

Since we're discussing Cosmic Era technology and shields have come up in the last few posts, does anyone know if there's anything special about the Impulse's shield? I ask because of a structure I've noticed on it.

As you can see here (apologies for linking directly to MAHq), there's a raised structure in the center of the shield, visible only when the shield expands. This raised object has eight openings around its circumference.

I didn't think this was of any significance, but then I recently noticed what looks like the exact same structure on the Forbidden Gundam's shields.

Does anybody know if this object does anything special?

Although I can't be certain from the animation, it's probably this thing: https://youtu.be/B33OvWdeXfg?t=26s

[BrentD15]

Besides, the side materials often contradict each other. That's why we still have no idea what the Strike Freedom uses as a power source.

-- Mark

I assume it's the same type of nuclear reactor and N-jammer canceller used by most nuclear-powered mobile suits in the CE-era.

And about the whole beam barrier thing with the Nu Gundam's Fin Funnels, it would make sense if it used an I-field, because beam sabers use that same I-field to repel each other.

[Enchanter468]

Although I can't be certain from the animation, it's probably this thing: https://youtu.be/B33OvWdeXfg?t=26s

I don't think it has anything to do with the deuterion beam, but if you were referring to the green flash that we see when the shield expands, then that opens the question of what the green flash is. I had in the past just assumed it was an effect for the sake of coolness, but now it seems more significant.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[monster]

I don't think it has anything to do with the deuterion beam, but if you were referring to the green flash that we see when the shield expands, then that opens the question of what the green flash is. I had in the past just assumed it was an effect for the sake of coolness, but now it seems more significant.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

I was indeed referring to the green flash. It may be an extra anti-beam coating applied to the shield or a precursor to beam shield technology. It may even have been what allowed the Impulse to bounce a beam rifle shot against its own shield in its fight with the Freedom.

As for the Forbidden, that may have been where mirage colloid was released to help it with deflecting oncoming beams. Or actually, MAHQ states that the colloid gas is held in place by the magnetic charge generated by the shields.

[stormturmoil]

Actually, if the Impulse's Shield does use Geschmeidig Panzer technology, that could be something of a plot hole, since use of Mirage Colloid Technology (including Geschmeidig Panzer) is supposed to be banned by the Junius Treaty.
however, that could lead to a bit of fridge logic: That could be why the Armory 1 Gundamjack took place: to get dirt that ZAFT is violating the Treaty. Unfortunately, they managed to get all but the one that would actually count.

As for Strike Freedom's power source, the Model Kit manual I believe mentions Inertial Confinement Fusion (the Archangel has some comments that might imply it uses this for power)
I find it best to split it into power and propulsion, and assume the IC fusion is for propulsion but not power, probably due to mass/bulk issues with the necessary power conversion gear. That reconciles the comments that it has a Deuterion powerplant with the model kits IC fusion refrences

[Antares]

I'm throwing a few ideas into the ring after reading this discussion, because CE beam weapons have been a topic of discussion, debate and despair here from the start of GS.

I dislike the level of argumentation by the YouTube poster (Whacky) already. And he seems to be taking this way too seriously for his own good (he's apparently also redesigned the Destiny into a new form hat he considers vastly better).

Early on someone mentioned that

Additional ammunition or materials for standard beam weapons aren't mentioned or shown which leads me to believe that aside from magazine using weapons like the Zaku's beam rifle, that CE beam weapons generate what ever the beam composed of.

In the Astray X manga the Hyperion series feature a beam submachine gun, which to my recollection does have a clip, and the pilot Canard Pars does exchange clips in combat. The Hyperion 1 unit also carries spare clips on the rear hip armor. The beam submachine gun also ejects some sort of cartridges, assumedly like spent e-caps?

Regarding the beam saber-on-beam saber encounters, could it be that the magnetic field holding the saber is a narrow one, and thus it's a bit risky to clash sabers? Like almost everyone has said, pilots show great preference for the shield, if it is available. The times that we've seen beams clash refer to Kira and Yzak, and there I suggest Yzak's exceptionally aggressive style of attacking forced Kira to parry with the beam saber, rather than the shield. I rewatched the first 20 episodes of GS (for an unrelated reason), and in those instances when Kira and Yzak's sabers meet, it's because Yzak has rushed Kira, and he has to pull out his saber quick.

In short, I hypothesize (without a single tech spec beyond what I saw in the animation and what you guys discussed about magnetic fields to back this up) that the saber's magnetic fields can be used to block, but that it's considered pretty risky, which is why it's so rarely seen.

This would also explain why an ASSword gets snapped by a beam saber; the angle where the magnetic fields meet all too easily slips the opposing beam saber along the physical side of the ASSword.

In this beam argument, I ain't touching the grandest of all CE cheese-graters, the Akatsuki. Although a surprising amount of sense has been managed in this thread; kudos to everyone who dug deep.

Lastly, we were discussing the Impulse's shield's green flash. At the time this was, indeed, a subject of some debate, with some of us opting for dramatic flare. A precursor of beam shield tech would, on the other hand, seem more plausible than Shinn tossing the shield miraculously in the correct angle so that the shot bounces off, rather than is absorbed. Regarding the ban of Geschmeidig Panzer, we've seen that CE treaties are rarely worth the paper they're printed on. ZAFT could've re-engineered EA tech and called it something else, and applied it in a less conspicuous way.