Settling an argument: G04 and G05 multi-use or space only?

[Strike105]

Like the title says, this topic is meant to settle an argument. Over the past year 1/2, there have been many, many suggestions to the list of possible mobile suits that could be added to the Gundam Battle Operation game, which only contains Earth-based maps, and Gundams G04 and G05 have always come up, despite the fact that almost all information related to them states that they are designed with space use specifically in mind, and all video games to feature them (including Side Stories, which is apparently liberal enough to allow the use of something like the GM Striker in space), disallows their use on Earth.

I have contributed to the argument myself on behalf of the "space only" side because I'm OCD as hell, and, petty as it is, it's always bugged me whenever someone says something Gundam-related that runs counter to what I think is common knowledge. I've mentioned AMBAC and the removal of a space suit's innards, such as parts and balancers which could possibly help distribute weight, which would be necessary for use in Earth's gravity and would probably be less important in a zero-G/low gravity environment, to make room for more fuel/propellant and thrusters, and that it would probably collapse under its own weight if it were to try to move in Earth's gravity. These arguments are constantly countered with "It was only optimized for space with more thrusters, and it still has legs, so it should be considered fair game." which I believe is pretty weak. After all, Rick-Dom. "If it was meant to be used only in space, then they should have replaced the legs with fuel tanks or thrusters or something like the Dra-C, and it would still use AMBAC", which is better, but the Dra-C was a special case because it was cobbled together from damaged Zakus, Gattles, and whatever else was around to build up numbers, and the humanoid shape has always been considered highly adaptable for multiple tasks, be it for combat purposes or maneuvering. This does, however, lead to something that I can't come up with a counterargument for: "If it's been partly hollowed out for fuel, it should suffer far more stress from bounding off asteroids, kicking other suits, and being launched from catapults than walking on Earth", which I actually didn't consider, and it is something we do see a lot of suits doing. So... help us end this?

[Calubin_175]

I think GBO had the Zudah and Pezun Dowage, which are arguably space only, but I am not sure how G Generation took them.

[AmuroNT1]

G Gen Overworld has both the G04 and G05 as ground-capable; they're merely better in space (A-rank for Space terrain as opposed to B for Ground).

[Evex]

I think we need to clarify which versions of the G-04 and G-05 are we talking about. Are we talking about the base G-04 and G05 or are we talking about the G-04BST and G-05BST. If its the base models SD Gundam G Genration world the Base G-04 and G-05 are given B ratings in ground, space and underwater. The BST versions have an A rank for space terrain B for ground and water.

I account the SD gundam games to be the most accurate when it comes to a mobile suits capabilities. This is because they're not dealing with a single time period, which can make the stats unreliable at times. It also boils down to this that both of them are G series Gundams for all intents and purposes, unless other wise stated by an official source, the G series were designed to operate both in space and on earth. Many might think the G-04 and G-05 are space only since they appeared in Mobile suit gundam: encounters in space, which takes place entirely in space and is more of an on railes shooter.

Edit:

You also have to realize that the G-04 and G-05 were built on earth most likely at Jaburo, before they were launched into space on board a pegausus class. If they were built on earth then it is most likely both gundams were tested on earth to make sure they worked. On the note of the GM Striker. The base machine for the GM Striker is a GM Kai it just features additional armor on it, so the suit can close in with the enemy with out being made into scrap metal. Since the base model is an unmodified GM Kai then it should work just fine in space. The only difference between the GM Kai and GM striker is improved leg thrusters.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I'm not sure about the G04 and G05, but maybe the manuals from the MG kits might have the information Strike105 is looking for:

http://dalong.net/review/mg/m63/m63_i.htm
http://dalong.net/review/mg/m64/m64_i.htm

I think GBO had the Zudah and Pezun Dowage, which are arguably space only, but I am not sure how G Generation took them.

As for the Zudah and Pezun Dwadge, I actually think they are both ground combat capable:

-During the Zudah episode, Oliver May actually tells his superior that given the situation on Earth (EF forces surrounding Odessa), they should speed up the the deployment of the Zudah. Considering that the original Zudah also competed against the Zaku I, I'm quite inclined to think that it is a general purpose unit capable of operating on Earth.

-The Pezun Dwadge is a unit with very little info available. I recall reading somewhere that it was merely a Dom type better geared for melee combat. As we know, most melee focused units are for use on Earth. Other sources, including GBO, indicate that its main difference is the replacement of the beam spray gun for a proper beam gun. However, one thing that has is not clear is whether it is a ground or space combat unit.

Looking at the bigger picture, if we observe the other MS-X units, we have the MS-12 Gigan, which is most commonly depicted on its ground configuration. There's also the MS-13 Gatsha/Gasshia, which despite being sometimes depicted as a space unit, I'm convinced a ground unit, first due to its "ground sensors", but more importantly, due to the fact that is based on the Z'gok and seems to come from the idea of wanting a 100% ground combat use Z'gok, a MS commonly said to operate so well on both land and underwater. This proves that not only space combat units were developed at Pezun.

However, it is precisely the Side Story of the G04 and G05 which may give us the greatest hint: we have the Mallet team using not only an Act Zaku, but also Galbaldy Alphas. This means that they had access to the MS from Pezun, however they only brought those two models, despite 3 of their pilots potentially having the chance to upgrade to Pezun Dwadges from their Rick Dom IIs. This either means that the MS-10 is a downgrade compared to a MS-09R-2, or more likely, that it simply is not a direct replacement, quite possibly for it being a ground combat unit.

[toysdream]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any examples of a space-use mobile suit that actually fails to work on Earth. As long as it has legs, I'd assume it would at least function, however badly; we've never seen hard evidence to the contrary.

After all, even space-use mobile suits are still expected to operate on the lunar surface and inside colonies, environments which aren't all that different from Earth.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any examples of a space-use mobile suit that actually fails to work on Earth. As long as it has legs, I'd assume it would at least function, however badly; we've never seen hard evidence to the contrary.

After all, even space-use mobile suits are still expected to operate on the lunar surface and inside colonies, environments which aren't all that different from Earth.

-- Mark

Right, except for Zeong and Dra-C(The only two that I can think of right now that does not really have legs), I cannot think of any MS that can perform in space that cannot go into a colony, which, obvious enough, that it will be able to operate on Earth, with the only argument on "how well" instead of "possibility".

[toysdream]

And of course, if you stick legs on the Zeong then it works on Earth as well. (The legs are described in the old MSV books as "walking units for ground combat.")

Actually, the main issue I can see with things not working on Earth would be remote weapons like bits, funnels, incoms, and wire-guided turrets. Up until Gundam ZZ, there was never any indication that these could work under gravity, and since that's just ZZ I'm still not sure I believe it.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

And of course, if you stick legs on the Zeong then it works on Earth as well. (The legs are described in the old MSV books as "walking units for ground combat.")

Actually, the main issue I can see with things not working on Earth would be remote weapons like bits, funnels, incoms, and wire-guided turrets. Up until Gundam ZZ, there was never any indication that these could work under gravity, and since that's just ZZ I'm still not sure I believe it.

-- Mark

In ZZ, Qubeley Mk-II's Funnels seems to work in free fall only.
So I guess its not really working well, just that it took really long to hit the ground.

[Gelgoog Jager]

And of course, if you stick legs on the Zeong then it works on Earth as well. (The legs are described in the old MSV books as "walking units for ground combat.")

Actually, the main issue I can see with things not working on Earth would be remote weapons like bits, funnels, incoms, and wire-guided turrets. Up until Gundam ZZ, there was never any indication that these could work under gravity, and since that's just ZZ I'm still not sure I believe it.

-- Mark

In ZZ, Qubeley Mk-II's Funnels seems to work in free fall only.
So I guess its not really working well, just that it took really long to hit the ground.

Unicorn pretty much confirmed that do funnels work under gravity, however are quite unstable and difficult to aim: when Marida is fighting the Rezels in Industrial 7, she tries to finish a crippled Rezel that fell to the ground with her funnels, but these are unable to stabilize so close to the ground and she ends up accidentally hitting the Rezel's generator, to her own surprise.

On the other hand, we have the Shamblo, which uses those reflector bits kept airborne using propellers, which seems to solve the stability issue.

[Massignifico]

The ZZ's MS-09G Dowadges were supposed to be MS-10 Pezun Dowadges modified for use on earth (that's why after ZZ the MS-10 was renamed as Pezun, despite there seems to be no connection between the models), because in the first draft Axis would use many earlier mobile suits modified for gound combat (the Zaku III was an enhanced High Mobility Type, the Mariner an amphibious version of the the III etc.) so we can think that:

1. The Pezun Dowadge can fight only in space and needs to be adapted for ground combat
2. It can be used anyway but it was going to be enhanced regardless

[Gelgoog Jager]

The ZZ's MS-09G Dowadges were supposed to be MS-10 Pezun Dowadges modified for use on earth (that's why after ZZ the MS-10 was renamed as Pezun, despite there seems to be no connection between the models), because in the first draft Axis would use many earlier mobile suits modified for gound combat (the Zaku III was an enhanced High Mobility Type, the Mariner an amphibious version of the the III etc.) so we can think that:

1. The Pezun Dowadge can fight only in space and needs to be adapted for ground combat
2. It can be used anyway but it was going to be enhanced regardless

I'm still not convinced that the Pezun Dwadge is a space machine: one of the few pieces of data we have on the MS-10 Pezun Dwadge is its empty weight:

Weight: empty 61.4 metric tons
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/ms-x/ms-10.htm

This is in the same ballpark as the ground use MS-09B Dom:

Weight: empty 62.6 metric tons
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/ms-09.htm

But it is almost 50% higher than the space use MS-09R Rick Dom:

Weight: empty 43.8 metric tons
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/ms-09r.htm

The reasoning behind the Rick Dom's lower weight compared to the Dom is that the ground use hover jet thrusters are replaced with standard space use rocket thrusters, which end up freeing a lot of internal space which is then used for laoding more propellant, the later which is not included in the empty weight spec.

Assuming that the Pezun Dwadge could truly be converted for space use, its empty weight after replacing the thrusters and other equipment should be closer to the Rick Dom's.

[Strike105]

Not as much debate as I was expecting... Even though there's no solid answer yet, and I still very much doubt G04 and G05 will ever make it into GBO, it appears that everyone seems to have a somewhat similar view on these suits' functionality in multiple environments, so I'll accept the defeat... For now.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Not as much debate as I was expecting... Even though there's no solid answer yet, and I still very much doubt G04 and G05 will ever make it into GBO, it appears that everyone seems to have a somewhat similar view on these suits' functionality in multiple environments, so I'll accept the defeat... For now.

I'm sorry, but the best argument I could provide is that the external propellant tanks hint that at least that configuration is meant to be used exclusively in space, at least by OYW standards, where propellant is more likely to run out.

On Earth I can only think of the MS-09G Dwadge as having external propellant tanks, however this is due to its extensive use of its hover jet thrusters, which most OYW units do not use as extensively on Earth. As a minor example, Ketih's MS-14F is not using propellant tanks on Earth during the 0083 epilogue.

And you may already have noticed that in GBO both the MS-14F and MS-14FS have their propellant tanks removed.

However, the G04 and G05 doesn't seem to use similar removable propellant tanks, but rather their "propellant tanks" have integrated thrusters (think of them as something similar to the Dra-Cs legs). In the end these are largely useless on Earth, and instead just make the G04 and G05 larger targets, which might mean that these aren't mean to operate on Earth, at least in their given configuration.

[bumsdeclaf]

Not as much debate as I was expecting... Even though there's no solid answer yet, and I still very much doubt G04 and G05 will ever make it into GBO, it appears that everyone seems to have a somewhat similar view on these suits' functionality in multiple environments, so I'll accept the defeat... For now.

haha I win , JK

But really i dont think they will make it either because its alot more work for developers. Notice the recent suits added have already existed in other PS3 games, so I would guess its easier to add because CAD models exists and animations of these models exist as well. Thats why I thought RX-178 would be more likely since it was in the gundam 0081 game and they could easily transfer it over like they did with G-line light armor.

but at least we established that its feasible for them to be on this game

[Gelgoog Jager]

haha I win , JK

But really i dont think they will make it either because its alot more work for developers. Notice the recent suits added have already existed in other PS3 games, so I would guess its easier to add because CAD models exists and animations of these models exist as well. Thats why I thought RX-178 would be more likely since it was in the gundam 0081 game and they could easily transfer it over like they did with G-line light armor.

but at least we established that its feasible for them to be on this game

But if that's really the case, why not add the Dreissen, Musai Kai and maybe even the Dra-C from Gundam UC for PS3 to Side Stories, for the U.C. 0090 part of the story?

Instead we get a bunch of out of place units like the Zaku, Dom, Gelgoog and Galbaldy Alpha, along just a few Gaza D and Dooben Wolf units. In particular they could have simply included a bunch of Musai Kai cruisers instead of an assorted group of older Chivvay, Musai and Zanzibar ships.

[toysdream]

The reasoning behind the Rick Dom's lower weight compared to the Dom is that the ground use hover jet thrusters are replaced with standard space use rocket thrusters, which end up freeing a lot of internal space which is then used for laoding more propellant, the later which is not included in the empty weight spec.

Assuming that the Pezun Dwadge could truly be converted for space use, its empty weight after replacing the thrusters and other equipment should be closer to the Rick Dom's.

It may be unwise to read too much into those weight specs - like the conflicting weights for the Gelgoog series, they really don't hold up to scrutiny. Anyway, Gundam Century says (and Entertainment Bible 1 echoes) that the Rick Dom is supposed to be a bit heavier than the original Dom.

To begin with, since the hybrid nuclear thermal jet/rocket engines were to be used as pure rockets, their combustion chambers were expanded by removing air compressors and other systems. As a result, they could produce 490 tons of thrust, about four times that of the jet type. But this increase in thrust meant reduced energy conversion efficiency, so its propellant consumption rate was about one-half to one-third that of a chemical type. And with the addition of space cooling systems, navigation systems, and magnets, its propellant tank space was also decreased.

The nuclear thermal jet engines in the legs and waist skirt were replaced by rockets, and cooling systems and other space equipment were added. Although its exterior was unchanged from the land warfare type, its propellant capacity was reduced and its base weight increased in proportion to the added equipment, thus lowering its maneuverability.

As so often happens, the current official specs conflict with the profile text, but since the F type Zaku is heavier than the J type it does stand to reason that the same is true with the Rick Dom.

In any case, if you're taking low base weight as an indicator of Rick Dom-relatedness, then logically the Dom Tropen and the ZZ version of the Dowadge would be based on the Rick Dom, right? That might even give us an alternate explanation for the Dowadge's external tanks - it could be an adaptation of a space type, with rockets instead of fuel-efficient jet engines.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

The example of the MS-06F & MS-06J has problem though: depending of the version, some J-types lack feet thrusters altogether (MS Igloo 2). In such case the lower weight could simply be the result of removing thrusters and verniers without replacing them with anything (simply patching the armor). The Dom on the other hand do replaced the removed space equipment.

Also, the Gundam Century quote doesn't actually say that the Rick Dom is heavier, but rather that the space equipment uses up more volume, which might not necessarily translate into more weight.

As for the MS-09G and MS-09F/trop, these particular units do might have a potential explanation for their lower weights:

-The MS-09G could simply has had its weight reduced as the result of its post OYW modifications, namely the use of Gundarium Gamma, a much lighter armor material.

-MS-09F/trop might be more complicated to explain, but basically I think that the listed empty weight belongs to its basic configuration, the MS-09F, whose only sighting AFAIK is at A Baoa Qu, indicating that it is a space use unit. The listed weight of the MS-09F is the same as the MS-09F/trop despite the differences in equipment, nor to mention it's intended use (space and ground respectively). My guess is that they are simply considering the Dom Tropen as a different load out/equipment for the Dom Funf. Perhaps the simplified process to change between space and ground equipment led to such decision, since unlike other MS, the Dom Funf may have been intended to constantly switch between equipment as needed.

[toysdream]

The specs from Gundam Century do list the Rick Dom with a higher dry weight, though. (And a lower full weight, reflecting the reduced propellant supply.) Unlike later publications, the specs in Gundam Century actually match the profile text, or vice versa.

As for the Dom variations, I feel like you may be trying too hard to make sense of irrational specs. The ZZ Dowadge and Dom Tropen are ground types with low base weights; Dozle's custom Rick Dom, from the MSV-R series, is a space type with a high base weight. There's really no rhyme or reason to it, but no matter what number they make up for base weights, the full weight of every Dom type is right around 80 tons.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

The specs from Gundam Century do list the Rick Dom with a higher dry weight, though. (And a lower full weight, reflecting the reduced propellant supply.) Unlike later publications, the specs in Gundam Century actually match the profile text, or vice versa.

As for the Dom variations, I feel like you may be trying too hard to make sense of irrational specs. The ZZ Dowadge and Dom Tropen are ground types with low base weights; Dozle's custom Rick Dom, from the MSV-R series, is a space type with a high base weight. There's really no rhyme or reason to it, but no matter what number they make up for base weights, the full weight of every Dom type is right around 80 tons.

-- Mark

Those two paragraphs seem a bit contradicting considering that Gundam Century gives the MS-09 and MS-09R full weights of 183.8 and 171.6 tons respectively (more than twice the 80 tons of other soruces), not to mention that the same source says that a Z'gok is heavier than a Gogg

Regarding MSV-R, while it does gives Dozle's Rick Dom an empty weight of 63.7 tons, it also gives two grounds use Dom variants higher empty weights:

MS-09 (Cold climate) - 69.4 tons
YMS-09J: 68.2 tons

If we were to apply the 80 tons rule to these units, it would mean that they are barely going to have 10 tons worth of fuel, weapons and ammo.

As for the MS-09G Dwadge, I do have an example showing how the a MS gets upgraded over the years and has its weight reduced as a result:

MS-08TX (U.C. 0079) - 59.4 tons
MS-08TX/S (U.C. 0096) - 52.4 tons (scroll down to the bottom)

Let me show another example; the case of the high mobility Zakus and their retconned empty weights:

MS-06G - 58.1 tons
MS-06R-1 - 56.8 tons
MS-06R-1A - 56.8 tons
MS-06R-2 - 58.2 tons

Note: Uma Lightning's custom MS-06R-1A from MSV-R echoes the claim that the empty weight of the MS-06R-1A is 56.8 tons instead of the original 61.8 tons.

What we can observe here is that essentially the space use R-1 & R-1A types are lighter than the ground use G-type, despite having a similar amount of upgrades (additional thrusters to their legs). More importantly, the even more modified R-2 type, which boasts a larger backpack, more larger thrusters and additional leg armor is as heavy as a G-type.

Despite their differences, this does seem to indicate that the space bound units generally have lighter weight than their ground counter parts. The exception of course is the MS-06J, which if depicted as in MS Igloo 2, can simply justify its lower weight as the result of having its legs thrusters and verniers removed (rather than replaced by other equipment, as in the case of the Dom). This wouldn't apply to those FJ-types that preserve their feet thrusters.

Last, but not least, is the case of the MS-06Z, which the Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story Missing Link Archives gives a retconned base weight of 43.8 tons, far below the 60.4 tons from the original MSV profile. This machine essentially has the same proportions as a Dom type and was also developed late in the war, so it does serve as a good reference point for other space-use heavy-type MS introduced late in the war.