The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

[balofo]

Relax, don't take my comments seriously.

Its just for fun

[Xenosynth]

I'm sorry if I'm taking it too seriously. I just didn't like that it seemed like you were getting jollies off people defending something you didn't like, when well, you like things that others dislike too. It's sort of frustrating. I also hope I didn't come across as too harsh with FT but it was the primary example I could think of.

[balofo]

No offense taken bro. I respect people's opinion and tastes, I just like to troll sometimes.

Anyway this particle thing will be discussed for generations, just like the Dobergun

[BrentD15]

Honestly, trolling should not be tolerated. At all.

[gunform1010]

Honestly, trolling should not be tolerated. At all.

*high fives Brent*

[BrentD15]

Honestly, trolling should not be tolerated. At all.

*high fives Brent*

*returns high-five*
And seriously, why would you want to troll anybody? You come off as more of a gadfly; someone who infuriates others for their amusement.


Anyways, back on topic: I honestly hope that this new Tri Fighters sequel actually comes out better prepared than Tri Fighters.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Except it contradicts the idea of Lucas being a good pilot if he's not holding back his power for when it's needed, especially in a battle where pacing is important.

The impression I got was that wasn't possible. Instead of being able to switch on and off at need, it seems to be something that's built into the Full Cloth. Think of it like an engine with extremely high performance at the cost of terrible fuel efficiency, I suppose.

The Full Cloth was on equal levels with the CS units, and regardless of what attacks are thrown out, it doesn't mesh with the fact that throwing out super moves is the only thing Sekai does and he has not once hit a particle limit.

Except that, as I said, the Full Cloth was presumably burning through particles rapidly all the time, not just when it was attacking. It makes sense that the guy who's constantly dumping a bunch of particles into his gunpla uses up his supply faster than a guy who dumps a bunch of particles into a super move two or three times per battle.

It didn't do anything that made it seem like it had greater strength, speed, agility, or defense compared to the other units.

If you're using particles at a higher rate to enhance your performance, you would, you know, expect visible enhancements in your performance.

Even ignoring the fact that Lucas generally trashed team Celestial Sphere (he blocked or dodged everything they threw at him, while countering hard enough to cripple the G-Portent and significantly damage The End), it's mentioned repeatedly by several people during the battle that they're surprised that his gunpla is able to fight at such a high level for so long. It's pretty clear that they know he's using some sort of gimmick to boost performance at the cost of endurance, and they're surprised that he's able to keep it up. The fact that it doesn't have a nifty visual effect like Trans Am doesn't mean that it's not addressed.

If you're using your particles two or three times faster than your opponents, your performance should at least be some considerable measure faster, more powerful, or otherwise better than an opponent who isn't, especially when you're hyped to be the best Gunpla in the tournament (uses particles more efficiently, etc). We don't see this.

So the fact that one guy can only fight three opponents to a standstill instead of beating them effortlessly means that his gunpla obviously isn't any better than theirs? It's also worth noting that Lucas doesn't actually start to lose until after both his particle suppliers have been taken out, when his gunpla's performance presumably is finally dropping back down to normal levels.

You're free to interpret this stuff however you want, but for me it's just not believable, and I don't think I am being unreasonable here (or anyone else who holds this position).

Sure, and like I said, if you don't find it to be a satisfying explanation, then I'm not going to disagree with you. But it is an explanation, and one presented in the show, so calling it inconsistent plothax BS isn't really fair.

[latenlazy]

So the fact that one guy can only fight three opponents to a standstill instead of beating them effortlessly means that his gunpla obviously isn't any better than theirs? It's also worth noting that Lucas doesn't actually start to lose until after both his particle suppliers have been taken out, when his gunpla's performance presumably is finally dropping back down to normal levels.

Uhh...that one guy used hit and run tactics and did most of the fight 1 vs 1, where he was only marginally better in that 1 vs 1. And he didn't fight them to a stand still. The two he supposedly took out were still standing, AND he would have lost without the time limit.

This is somewhat of a lesser problem though. The bigger problem really comes down to whether you're willing to accept that being in some high output mode uses up even more particles than spamming giant beams and doing ridiculous planet busting feats. I find that difficult to swallow.

Sure, and like I said, if you don't find it to be a satisfying explanation, then I'm not going to disagree with you. But it is an explanation, and one presented in the show, so calling it inconsistent plothax BS isn't really fair.

I do not remember anywhere where the show presented it as an explanation. The first time I heard of this as an explanation for anything was on this forum, and I'm not one to miss details presented in shows (but you're free to point to the episode and minutes where this was explained).

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I do not remember anywhere where the show presented it as an explanation.

They never spell out "ah, the Full Cloth is using Full Mode, where it uses up its particle supply quickly in order to boost its performance in the meantime" in so many words, but during its battle with Team Celestial Sphere, multiple people call out the Full Cloth for being higher performance than it should be (even taking into account that Lucas is a world-class builder) and express surprise that it's able to maintain that level of performance for so long. Given that, and the fact that Lucas is explicitly using his teammates as glorified particle supplies in order to extend his gunpla's endurance, it's not much of a leap to reach the conclusion that he's burning through his particle supply at a rapid pace in order to boost his performance.

Whether you buy the idea that using a plavasky particle afterburner uses more particles than using planet-destroying super moves is a separate question, of course. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that those are just visual effects rather than being an actual true-to-life simulation of the attacks, but I can see why other people would feel differently.

[Kuruni]

Uhh...that one guy used hit and run tactics and did most of the fight 1 vs 1, where he was only marginally better in that 1 vs 1.

Except Gunpla Battle isn't some old turn-based tactical RPG that when unit engage in battle they will appear in isolated field that other units become irrelevant to the battle. As you engage one target, the other guys can move around too, in real time. That's why maneuver become even more important, you need to be faster in order to atatck and leave without giving the other guys a chance keep you engaged.

Remember that his opponents are the Celestial Sphere, not White Wolves (although I have to admit that it would be much better if they show us his one side beating against the White Wolves to establish how good Lucas is against some norms).

[latenlazy]

I do not remember anywhere where the show presented it as an explanation.

Whether you buy the idea that using a plavasky particle afterburner uses more particles than using planet-destroying super moves is a separate question, of course. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that those are just visual effects rather than being an actual true-to-life simulation of the attacks, but I can see why other people would feel differently.

I was referring to the theory that the planet busting was just visual flourish and not representative of particle expenditure.

[Raikoh]

Let's put it this way:

Lightning Gundam was utterly demolished by The End in their first battle. A little tweaking and its power level suddenly becomes high enough to beat The End. This suggests that even a minor adjustment to build quality makes a major factor in specs. When Wilfrid says that the Crossbone was the best unit in the tournament, we can only assume that it must have been built head and shoulders above all the other units. Overclocking it should only make it more absurd. But we never see an indication of this. When it clashes sabers with Transient, the two are evenly matched. It's constantly running away, but is not fast enough to shake the members of Celestial Sphere, not even The End which is pretty obviously slower than the others. It doesn't take direct hits, but that speaks nothing of its specs. It just says it's agile which, well, it's a Crossbone, that should be right out of the box (never mind that it moves like a brick in animation most of the time). The one notable time it does actually take a direct hit, i.e. Transient Burst, it gets destroyed without crippling the Transient. It didn't even damage the Potato in a one-on-one and it needed one of the Geara Dogas to help out. From where I sit, the presentation made the Full Cloth a "2500" unit against a team with two "3000"s and a "2500". It's hardly on par with other cases where a person is outnumbered but still puts on an impressive show like, for example, the Gouf Custom battle from 08th. The only people Lucas actually had dominance over was a team that habitually jobbed and everyone knew that their only purpose in the plot was jobbing from day one. Not that impressive that you can beat up the equivalent of Yamcha.

The real irony here comes that in the very episode after the Crossbone, we saw everything they wanted to do with that fight and more in the form of the Tryon 3. Tryon totally stole the show from the entire rest of the series, letting its power be conveyed by what's actually on-screen instead of what we're told with no solid evidence to support it. Minato showed superb piloting and tactics by doing things like damaging the Burning's waist to disable its martial arts. In fact, Minato was so dominant that it took even more blatant plot armor than the Crossbone fight to keep him from winning!

If destroying planets is just a function in the system for flavor (which I'd blame Nils for), then how come it doesn't happen more often?

[Kuruni]

Simple, pulling dramatic effect one after another without proper invocation only make it dull and dramatically loss the suppose dramatic effect.

Hey, go ahead, write a story where everything is over the top dramatic, start with dramatic wake up, follow by dramatic brushing and entering dramatic kitchen to make dramatic breakfast so they can dramatically eat it while wathcing dramatic TV news. Lets see how long you can keep it, and if the climax of the story still hold any dramatic effect when everything is so dramatic already.

[Raikoh]

Yeah, it makes sense from a meta perspective, but in-universe the mechanics need to be set up a certain way. Saying "it's a game" doesn't justify it. If anything, it only makes it more confusing.

Let's go with the moon, since that's less over-the-top than biting a chunk out of Earth and more likely to get shots flying towards it. What in the system triggers the Object Crash? I doubt it's dealing a certain amount of damage like armor breaking in Soul Calibur, because then you could have someone just spray vulcans at the Moon for a while and blow it up. Is it just any attack flying towards the moon above a certain damage threshold? If so, what's the damage that it needs? Would someone like Meijin be able to stab the moon with a beam saber and make it explode? Is it like breakable floors and walls in Tekken, that require a body be slammed against it with certain types of attacks? If so, what type of attack triggers moon explosion? Even with stuff like Hyper Mega Cannon and Sekiha Tenkyoken I don't see that happening.

Ordinarily a series would distract the viewer from asking these types of questions, but that kind of requires that they be putting enough emphasis on good characters, fight choreography, story, worldbuilding, etc etc. Besides, this is Gundam, not Dragon Ball. Even in G Gundam we never saw anything THAT over-the-top, and that was a series where Imagawa didn't care if the fights made sense as long as they looked cool.

[BrentD15]

Saying "it's a game" doesn't justify it. If anything, it only makes it more confusing.

I hate that whole "It's just a game/movie/T.V. show/book." argument.

Just because it's a game, that doesn't mean it defies criticism. If you notice a flaw in a show, acknowledge that it's a flaw that the production team failed to address, and don't make up excuses for it.

[Kuruni]

Well, it's kind of work here because Gunpla Battle is really a game within the show.

For what trigger it, one possibility is that the battle system AI is very smart and complex enough that it actually recognize the situation that may worth to crank up a dramatic factor (Transient and Build Burning fighting in pattern that it recognize as "tense", and then Build Burning pull two powerful moves that it never seen before, so the AI decide to spiced up some effect for cool factor as it recognize how this can make audiences go wild).

Just my guess, because we still know so little about the machine itself.

[latenlazy]

Well, it's kind of work here because Gunpla Battle is really a game within the show.

For what trigger it, one possibility is that the battle system AI is very smart and complex enough that it actually recognize the situation that may worth to crank up a dramatic factor (Transient and Build Burning fighting in pattern that it recognize as "tense", and then Build Burning pull two powerful moves that it never seen before, so the AI decide to spiced up some effect for cool factor as it recognize how this can make audiences go wild).

Just my guess, because we still know so little about the machine itself.

The point is that in order for a game within a show to not seem contrived and plot devicey there needs to be well defined and consistent rules within that game. This is especially true for shows where the game is the central focus.

Let me know when the show itself invents this justification, and not prognosticators on a forum.

Simple, pulling dramatic effect one after another without proper invocation only make it dull and dramatically loss the suppose dramatic effect.

Funny, because that was one of my criticisms of Try

Uhh...that one guy used hit and run tactics and did most of the fight 1 vs 1, where he was only marginally better in that 1 vs 1.

Except Gunpla Battle isn't some old turn-based tactical RPG that when unit engage in battle they will appear in isolated field that other units become irrelevant to the battle. As you engage one target, the other guys can move around too, in real time. That's why maneuver become even more important, you need to be faster in order to atatck and leave without giving the other guys a chance keep you engaged.

Remember that his opponents are the Celestial Sphere, not White Wolves (although I have to admit that it would be much better if they show us his one side beating against the White Wolves to establish how good Lucas is against some norms).

I don't disagree with the logic of the argument, especially with the bolded sentence, but the question is is this what we see on screen?. The Crossbone had to recharge two or three times in that battle. It would not be illogical to assume 3 times the particle expenditure, on a better gunpla to boot. I would argue we did not see performance that would believably justify the assumption of 3 times the particle expenditure, or even some lower multiple of that, especially when the other side is spamming giant beams and the Crossbone is just using conventional attacks.

[Kuruni]

I don't disagree with the logic of the argument, especially with the bolded sentence, but the question is is this what we see on screen?. The Crossbone had to recharge two or three times in that battle. It would not be illogical to assume 3 times the particle expenditure, on a better gunpla to boot. I would argue we did not see performance that would believably justify the assumption of 3 times the particle expenditure, or even some lower multiple of that, especially when the other side is spamming giant beams and the Crossbone is just using conventional attacks.

And constantly moving, heck, some guy here even complain Lucas was running around for most of the battle (semi off-topic, that was one moment that make me giggle; people often mock Art of War as book of simple common sense, and people prove it again and again that they have no common sense in this regard).

And unlike Celestial Sphere's gunpla which are based on GN drive-powered MS (which give them free maneuver in air, it's even said so in Transient's gunpla manual), CBFC moving around with normal thrusters, in sky battlefield. Unless CBFC's manual actually shoot itself in foot by claim it also has some flight system, I say the constant flying in flying brick gunpla with speed that keep outrunning actual flyer justify the particle use.

Funny, because that was one of my criticisms of Try

And I'm actually agree with you at time.

[latenlazy]

I don't disagree with the logic of the argument, especially with the bolded sentence, but the question is is this what we see on screen?. The Crossbone had to recharge two or three times in that battle. It would not be illogical to assume 3 times the particle expenditure, on a better gunpla to boot. I would argue we did not see performance that would believably justify the assumption of 3 times the particle expenditure, or even some lower multiple of that, especially when the other side is spamming giant beams and the Crossbone is just using conventional attacks.

And constantly moving, heck, some guy here even complain Lucas was running around for most of the battle (semi off-topic, that was one moment that make me giggle; people often mock Art of War as book of simple common sense, and people prove it again and again that they have no common sense in this regard).

And unlike Celestial Sphere's gunpla which are based on GN drive-powered MS (which give them free maneuver in air, it's even said so in Transient's gunpla manual), CBFC moving around with normal thrusters, in sky battlefield. Unless CBFC's manual actually shoot itself in foot by claim it also has some flight system, I say the constant flying in flying brick gunpla with speed that keep outrunning actual flyer justify the particle use.

Heheh, you have to actually understand the Art of War to understand the Art of War. Too many read these things hoping to take away conclusions, when the real wealth of knowledge is in understanding the reasons.

At the end of the day I just don't buy it. I could struggle to work myself into accepting that explanation (barely, and very begrudgingly) if it were just that episode, but that flimsy suspension of disbelief completely shattered the episode after when they started blowing up colonies and planets.

[Kuruni]

Well, you have that right. Because the dramatic visual theory is still fan theory, after all.