The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:37 pm

balofo wrote:We all wanted Lucas taking out Shia/Muh wrist and then having a close defeat to Mr. Cardboardbox.
"We all" isn't a phrase to be throwing around casually. And as I've said many times, he DID take out Shia; it's not like her having a secret repair system suddenly invalidates Lucas and the Full Cloth's abilities. To give a similar example: Are the villains from Dragon Ball Z any weaker just because the heroes have access to virtually unlimited wishes that they use to undo all the death and destruction those villains cause?
latenlazy wrote:If by not bothering to explain everything you also mean not hyping the full cloth, maybe. Or they could have given it more impressive feats to justify the gimp...or just not have transient and try burning blow up a planet. Establishing particle limitations itself isn't the problem. Its when the rules of the universe aren't intuitively consistent and feel like super forced plot devices that this becomes a problem (I don't normally accuse everything of being a plot device but this is one).
They hyped Lucas a lot more than they did the Full Cloth.

And this is kind of what I mean: They introduced a concept and people disliked it. They tried to explain the concept, and people still dislike it. Would it have been better off to just let it be, as with many of the unexplained elements of Gunpla Battle, rather than bothering to try explaining things in the first place?
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by balofo » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:06 pm

Does taking out Shia means medium damage and she having a repair gimmick? Same with Adou receiving minor damage.

I can see you love your shonen but it just doesn't work with Gundam, take Try and remove the gunpla and use something like beyblades in place. It will be same show...

I agree with Lucas being hyped more than his gunpla and this makes him look even worse.

FC had the speed, armor, firepower, hidden gimmicks, etc to make an awesome battle taking out at least Shia/Adou, even if it was a short one. At least Hasegawa always gives us inventive battles in the manga.

The problem with particles storage is that it affected more the rivals than the heroes/main villains.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Raikoh » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:09 pm

The issue isn't with the particle cap alone, it's the consistency of it. Like stated before, we don't have any reason to believe the Full Cloth was even half as powerful as the Tryon or any of the six mainline units in the final match other than we're told it's supposed to be awesome.

Using Dragon Ball as an example, you can come up with a perfect analogy. Compare the particle caps to Super Saiyan 3. Every single time SS3 is used - excluding the fight with Beerus - it makes a tremendous difference in the fight (usually turning it into a curb stomp in the Saiyan's favor). On the other hand, they make it very clear how that power comes with a huge risk (it halved Goku's time on Earth the first time it was used).

Lucas, on the other hand, had what is supposed to be the best Gunpla in the tournament and even with overclocking the specs causing particle handicaps, he could barely fight against Celestial Sphere. He was never in a position where it looked like he had the advantage even once. On the other hand, the main characters are perfectly fine with doing everything Lucas did in that fight AND MORE without ever needing to worry about running low on particles.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by balofo » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:18 pm

^^^^perfect!

BTW we finally got the weight spec for the FC, the extra armor just adds 2,6t to the base X1(I believe the X1 Kai, Skull Heart and Patchwork should all have minor different weights due to different built-in equipment)

MG X2 and X3 have the same specs as the X1, but I find that strange unless the different head for the X2 and the arm I-Field Generators(should be heavy) don't make a difference in the decimal weight spec: 24.8t. I can accept the X2 having the same weight but the X2 Kai should be heavier

The HGUC X1 manual also finally gave us its armor material: Gundarium+High Ceramics.

Slowly the F97s are getting canon specs

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by latenlazy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:48 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:
They hyped Lucas a lot more than they did the Full Cloth.

And this is kind of what I mean: They introduced a concept and people disliked it. They tried to explain the concept, and people still dislike it. Would it have been better off to just let it be, as with many of the unexplained elements of Gunpla Battle, rather than bothering to try explaining things in the first place?
"By far the best Gunpla in this tournament." I'll let people decide for themselves how much hype that is.

They tried to explain a shoehorned concept. Actually, they're not even trying to explain a shoehorned concept so much as a shoehorned application of the concept. No one dislikes the concept on the face of it. In fact, if I recall, particle supply has been briefly mentioned before and no one exhibited any problems with that being a factor. It's when they apply the concept in a contrived way that we have problems.

They want to argue that the Crossbone uses more particles and thus needs resupply? That's fine actually, so long as it actually seems like it's using more particles compared to its opponents. However, you can't argue away how unintuitive it is that the Transient blew a giant raiser sword sized hole and had more than enough particles left to fight toe to toe with the Full Cloth AND have a special burst mode, or have Adou constantly spam giant beams at the Full Cloth while the Full Cloth responds economically, and then have the Full Cloth somehow be the one with particle limitations. It's hard to justify "the best gunpla" seemingly doing normal things and running out of particles, while the episode afterwards you have gunpla blowing up a colony and then half a planet all in one match. How is it plausible at all for the "best gunpla" to run out of particles when supposedly other gunpla have enough particles to blow up celestial bodies. This is not a feature problem. This is a writing problem.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by BrentD15 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:03 pm

latenlazy wrote:
AmuroNT1 wrote:
They hyped Lucas a lot more than they did the Full Cloth.

And this is kind of what I mean: They introduced a concept and people disliked it. They tried to explain the concept, and people still dislike it. Would it have been better off to just let it be, as with many of the unexplained elements of Gunpla Battle, rather than bothering to try explaining things in the first place?
"By far the best Gunpla in this tournament." I'll let people decide for themselves how much hype that is.

They tried to explain a shoehorned concept. Actually, they're not even trying to explain a shoehorned concept so much as a shoehorned application of the concept. No one dislikes the concept on the face of it. In fact, if I recall, particle supply has been briefly mentioned before and no one exhibited any problems with that being a factor. It's when they apply the concept in a contrived way that we have problems.

They want to argue that the Crossbone uses more particles and thus needs resupply? That's fine actually, so long as it actually seems like it's using more particles compared to its opponents. However, you can't argue away how unintuitive it is that the Transient blew a giant raiser sword sized hole and had more than enough particles left to fight toe to toe with the Full Cloth AND have a special burst mode, or have Adou constantly spams giant beams at the Full Cloth while the Full Cloth barely does anything but evade, and then have the Full Cloth somehow be the one with particle limitations. It's also hard to justify that "the best gunpla" seemingly doing normal things and running out of particles, while the episode afterwards you have Gunpla blowing up a colony and then half a planet all in one match. This is not a feature problem. This is a writing problem.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:25 am

I'm pretty sure that the idea behind the Full Cloth's particle limitation was that it was like it was running on full afterburners the whole time -- it got a lot higher performance than was possible otherwise, but at the cost of burning through fuel (or particles) at a ridiculous rate. And by "higher performance" I don't just beam bigger beam blasts or strong beam swords. Since the particles are what allow the gunpla to move in the first place, burning through them at an accelerated rate would presumably allow you to improve basically every aspect of the machine's performance. It's faster, stronger, tougher, more responsive, its weapons are more powerful, etc etc because it's using more particles. This boost is the only thing that let Lucas fight on even terms with three top-tier fighters simultaneously -- even if he's a better pilot with a better gunpla than all three of them individually, he still needs an extra edge to take them on together.

The concept itself is sound. Yeah, other gunpla fire giant beam cannon blasts and whatnot, but presumably the Gunpla Battle system is designed for that sort of use, so the default particle supply can handle it. Lucas turbo-charging his gunpla through extra particle use, though, is like firing a giant beam cannon blast continuously for the entire battle in terms of particle drain, which is why he runs out faster.

So I don't think you can really call it inconsistent or contradictory when compared to other uses of plavasky particles in GBF Try. Whether you find it satisfying as an explanation for the outcome of that fight is another question entirely, though.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by latenlazy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:52 am

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:I'm pretty sure that the idea behind the Full Cloth's particle limitation was that it was like it was running on full afterburners the whole time -- it got a lot higher performance than was possible otherwise, but at the cost of burning through fuel (or particles) at a ridiculous rate. And by "higher performance" I don't just beam bigger beam blasts or strong beam swords. Since the particles are what allow the gunpla to move in the first place, burning through them at an accelerated rate would presumably allow you to improve basically every aspect of the machine's performance. It's faster, stronger, tougher, more responsive, its weapons are more powerful, etc etc because it's using more particles. This boost is the only thing that let Lucas fight on even terms with three top-tier fighters simultaneously -- even if he's a better pilot with a better gunpla than all three of them individually, he still needs an extra edge to take them on together.

The concept itself is sound. Yeah, other gunpla fire giant beam cannon blasts and whatnot, but presumably the Gunpla Battle system is designed for that sort of use, so the default particle supply can handle it. Lucas turbo-charging his gunpla through extra particle use, though, is like firing a giant beam cannon blast continuously for the entire battle in terms of particle drain, which is why he runs out faster.

So I don't think you can really call it inconsistent or contradictory when compared to other uses of plavasky particles in GBF Try. Whether you find it satisfying as an explanation for the outcome of that fight is another question entirely, though.
Soo...we should just presume that Full Cloth also has enough particles to blow up both 1/6th of a colony and 1/4th of a planet in a single battle, while also going at it hard, but that some "full afterburner" mode which allows the Full Cloth to barely outpace its opponent is even more particle intensive than that? Totally believable :roll:

Suggesting that he burned more particles because he was fighting three opponents is hardly a strong argument. Lucas played hit and run and isolated his opponents one vs one and wasn't exactly running circles around them. He wasn't literally fighting all three simultaneously. Perhaps the particle shortage argument would have been more believable if he were, though, it should be noted that what we saw on screen was that the moment all three fighters converged on him at once he was quickly overwhelmed.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:08 am

Blowing up the battlefield is pretty obviously something programmed into the Gunpla Battle system, rather than a direct result of plavasky particle interaction. Plavasky particles are used to animate the gunpla and power their weapons, but the battleground seems to be entirely computer generated. Given that a space colony, the moon, or the entire planet Earth are way too large to fit in the battlefield anyway, I don't think it's a stretch to say that when the system shows them blowing up it's a glorified visual effect, not a true representation of how powerful the attacks actually are.

And regarding the idea that burning more particles doesn't make sense because he never actually fought all three of his opponents simultaneously, why would that make a difference? If you're using particles at a higher rate to enhance your performance, then you're using particles faster regardless of what's actually going on in the battle. If his "full mode" is active, then he's burning through particles quickly even if his gunpla is doing nothing but standing around.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:00 pm

balofo wrote:Does taking out Shia means medium damage and she having a repair gimmick? Same with Adou receiving minor damage.

I can see you love your shonen but it just doesn't work with Gundam, take Try and remove the gunpla and use something like beyblades in place. It will be same show...
No, taking Shia out means rendering the G-Portent incapable of further combat. Which is exactly what Lucas did, as stated by the members of Celestial Sphere. Just because he didn't turn the Portent and The End into shattered scraps of plastic doesn't mean he's a bad pilot or that the Full Cloth was weak. And, again, it's not Lucas' fault that he didn't know about the repair system that Shia was deliberately keeping a secret.

Also, just to let you know, you're coming off as extremely condescending with that remark about shonen. And if it didn't work with Gundam, then we wouldn't have G. Or the original Build Fighters, for that matter.
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:I'm pretty sure that the idea behind the Full Cloth's particle limitation was that it was like it was running on full afterburners the whole time -- it got a lot higher performance than was possible otherwise, but at the cost of burning through fuel (or particles) at a ridiculous rate.
I've been saying something similar since this episode aired, and people seem to either ignore it or dismiss it off hand.

The metaphor I was trying to come up with, which I admit is kind of poor, goes like this: A machine that operates at a level of 3, but can occasionally throw out a level 10 attack, will still outlast a machine that operates at a 7 constantly. It's a matter of CONSTANT energy usage; look at the 00 Gundams and such. Normally they can supply enough GN particles to keep running indefinitely, even when Virtue uses its BFG (though that does take a bit of charging). But when they go into Transam, they burn through their supplies at an incredible rate which results in that five-minute period where their performance drops because they're still trying to get back up to their initial level.

Admittedly, one issue that does cloud the discussion is that we don't know exactly what all consumes Plavsky particle "fuel". I mean, we can assume the obvious, that things like boosting and firing off large energy attacks consumes them. But does the act of merely walking/moving normally do it? How about using solid ammunition-based weapons like machine guns? We don't know, and unless the staff decides to explain all the trifling details of the Gunpla Battle system (which I don't think they've even fully worked out), it'll just be speculation.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Raikoh » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Except it contradicts the idea of Lucas being a good pilot if he's not holding back his power for when it's needed, especially in a battle where pacing is important. Going back to Dragon Ball, the entire argument against power levels are that those who have naturally high powers are going full blast the entire time so they don't have as much explosive power when they need it, and they are unable to fight in more drawn-out battles (in his encounter with the Ginyus, Goku's reading was 5000 when not in battle and when he powered up to show Ginyu what he's capable of, that number jumped to 180000). A good runner doesn't sprint in a marathon. It can't be done both ways - either the Full Cloth was a POS that was brought up to about equal to the level of the main character units through overclocking or Lucas was a terrible tactician.

The Full Cloth was on equal levels with the CS units, and regardless of what attacks are thrown out, it doesn't mesh with the fact that throwing out super moves is the only thing Sekai does and he has not once hit a particle limit. It didn't do anything that made it seem like it had greater strength, speed, agility, or defense compared to the other units. Other characters shot down The End's fangs without needing to immediately hop back and resupply. Fumina shot right through the Potato's barrier and destroyed it with one beam, and could keep on moving just fine. It was supposed to be the battle where they wanted to show Celestial Sphere in a bad position based on the preview, but that was completely inaccurate since they're in total control of the fight from the starting bell and everything Lucas does is struggling to stay in the battle, reacting to their actions rather than controlling the pace himself. They were constantly on Lucas' tail, and not a single one of the three were worried about actually losing. Reminder that the Full Cloth also lost against the Transient Burst.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by latenlazy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Blowing up the battlefield is pretty obviously something programmed into the Gunpla Battle system, rather than a direct result of plavasky particle interaction. Plavasky particles are used to animate the gunpla and power their weapons, but the battleground seems to be entirely computer generated. Given that a space colony, the moon, or the entire planet Earth are way too large to fit in the battlefield anyway, I don't think it's a stretch to say that when the system shows them blowing up it's a glorified visual effect, not a true representation of how powerful the attacks actually are.
"Obvious". Let me know when that explanation is in the show and not in a forum thread :P.
And regarding the idea that burning more particles doesn't make sense because he never actually fought all three of his opponents simultaneously, why would that make a difference? If you're using particles at a higher rate to enhance your performance, then you're using particles faster regardless of what's actually going on in the battle. If his "full mode" is active, then he's burning through particles quickly even if his gunpla is doing nothing but standing around.
If you're using particles at a higher rate to enhance your performance, you would, you know, expect visible enhancements in your performance. If you're using your particles two or three times faster than your opponents, your performance should at least be some considerable measure faster, more powerful, or otherwise better than an opponent who isn't, especially when you're hyped to be the best Gunpla in the tournament (uses particles more efficiently, etc). We don't see this. Instead we see Lucas being marginally better one vs one, and being overwhelmed 3 vs 1. For example, when he sword clashed with Wilfred, despite Wilfred's comment about the Full Cloths' particle output being greater, they were mostly in a dead heat. The Full Cloth throughout that battle displays neither more power nor more speed nor more of any other measure of performance for all this talk about increased particle output. The rationalization used to justify the gimp does not match up with what we see on screen.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by latenlazy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:54 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote: I've been saying something similar since this episode aired, and people seem to either ignore it or dismiss it off hand.

The metaphor I was trying to come up with, which I admit is kind of poor, goes like this: A machine that operates at a level of 3, but can occasionally throw out a level 10 attack, will still outlast a machine that operates at a 7 constantly. It's a matter of CONSTANT energy usage; look at the 00 Gundams and such. Normally they can supply enough GN particles to keep running indefinitely, even when Virtue uses its BFG (though that does take a bit of charging). But when they go into Transam, they burn through their supplies at an incredible rate which results in that five-minute period where their performance drops because they're still trying to get back up to their initial level.
I get the argument, but in order for it to be believable, that constant energy usage would have to be greater than the amount of particle output that we see in that final battle where CS and Try go at each other pretty hard and blow up a colony, then half a planet. Remember, Lucas had to recharge 3 times, and for all that particle output and recharging he only performed slightly better than his opponents 1vs1. Unless we're to accept that the system just likes to display grandiose environmental damage (which itself is a bit of an out of narrative contrivance), that's a tough pill to swallow, especially because we already know that giant beam spams deplete particles like no other and CS spammed giant beams several times in battle with Lucas. Meanwhile, we're supposed to believe that in the next battle, CS and Try blow up a colony, have an intense 15 minute battle, and then blow up half a planet in a tiebreaker without requiring any recharge?

You're free to interpret this stuff however you want, but for me it's just not believable, and I don't think I am being unreasonable here (or anyone else who holds this position).

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by balofo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:36 pm


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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Strike Zero » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:41 pm

latenlazy wrote:Meanwhile, we're supposed to believe that in the next battle, CS and Try blow up a colony, have an intense 15 minute battle, and then blow up half a planet in a tiebreaker without requiring any recharge?
Pretty sure both Gunpla would have gotten a complete recharge once they restarted the battle, though.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by latenlazy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:53 pm

Strike Zero wrote:
latenlazy wrote:Meanwhile, we're supposed to believe that in the next battle, CS and Try blow up a colony, have an intense 15 minute battle, and then blow up half a planet in a tiebreaker without requiring any recharge?
Pretty sure both Gunpla would have gotten a complete recharge once they restarted the battle, though.
I don't remember :P. Did they say?

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Strike Zero » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:00 pm

Don't believe they said specifically, it just seems natural to me.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by BrentD15 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:07 pm

balofo wrote:We all wanted Lucas taking out Shia/Muh wrist and then having a close defeat to Mr. Cardboardbox.

Even if they wanted the FC to sufferfrom particle problems, just make the fight 3 minutes but actually animated...

The in the next fight we have gunpla destroying colonies/planets with no problems.

It was simply poor writing, the whole show suffered from it.
Balofo, you don't speak on behalf of all Gundam fans (that belongs to our dear Mark :P), so don't go around saying what "we all" want when you just mean yourself.
AmuroNT1 wrote:Also, just to let you know, you're coming off as extremely condescending with that remark about shonen. And if it didn't work with Gundam, then we wouldn't have G. Or the original Build Fighters, for that matter.
Of course he's being condescending. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by balofo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:34 pm

Trolling anime threads will never get old.

AmuroNT1 is only person I see defending the particle BS when everyone sees it as bad writing, which it is.

G wasn't even that good :)

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Xenosynth » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:01 pm

Balofo, honestly I wasn't that against you until this post.

If you are really just trolling, what are you gaining from it? Do you have some superiority complex gained from arguing a kid's robot show online? Do you think that your opinion is above everyone else's or do you just think you are some kind of mature master troll who looks at everyone and goes 'lolz they reacted negatively I win!' No matter how it ends it seems to be really immature and uncool at this point. This shouldn't be a place for just trolling or messing with others. It should be a place where fans can have conversations and not have to worry about that kind of nonsense.

Like... again, don't act like you have final word on what all Gundam fans feel. Complain about G? Well how about that Frozen Teardrop you like so much? Many people who read about it think it is absolute garbage, don't they? At least in my experience. I know others who think that Frozen Teardrop would be great animated because it'd be hilarious to see how dumb it is. But yet you defend that. So why are you allowed to defend something that many dislike, but others aren't allowed to do the same with you without you going on like you are so superior?

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