The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by GX9900-Gundam-X » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:44 pm

I always felt that THE END's major basis was Mobile fighters with other elements like a GN drive and the elements of the deathsycthe I mean it has the arms like the Final devil gundams large arms the shoulders are shining gundam it has Dead end finger and the Maxter's pistols it has far more in common I thing with Mobile fighters that anything out of 00
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:22 pm

You can cite little bits here and there with The End, like the Dead End Fingers resembling the Devil Fingers, or the armor resembling Deathscythe's active cloak, but at the end of the day it's still an original design. I only really called it a 00 design because it seems to use a GN Drive, and so far Build Fighters has avoided any severe instances of "crossover Gunpla", with rare exceptions usually relating to weapons (like that one-off Spiegel Gundam wielding AGE-1 Spallow's Shiguru Blade).
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by toysdream » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:37 pm

While the other Gunpla Academy Gundams are clearly 00-themed, The End seems like a kind of mashup of non-UC Gundams. There's some Devil Gundam in there, some Deathscythe, it's got the fangs, and the overall effect reminds me a bit of the Virsago from Gundam X as well...

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Mimeblade » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:39 pm

It's the first I've heard about this "Full Cloth". Is that a Try Fighters original add-on? I've never seen it before.

Also, why isn't Skull Heart labelled Kai Kai? I thought that was the sole reason it had a Skull on the chest?

Also noticed Lucas Nemesis referenced the first series as he was that billionaire's grandson who was told to "fight his own battles".

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:56 pm

Mark: I felt like there was a bit of Virsago styling in The End too, especially when it opened up its torso-jaw and chowed down on that poor Geara Doga.

Mimeblade: Full Cloth originates from Crossbone Gundam: The Steel 7, and actually merited a Master Grade model a few years back. Here's the MAHQ profile (which I wrote, so no conflict of interest there :P): http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/steel7 ... lcloth.htm

I assume you mean "Why IS Skull Heart labeled Kai Kai?" rather than "isn't". In addition to the skull relief on the chest, Tobia had one of the screw whips removed so they could restore one of the scissor anchors. It also gained the Peacock Smasher crossbow weapon that you saw Full Cloth wielding. While the X3's skull relief had Gatlings in the eye sockets, Skull Heart seems to have lost these, but regained them when it was repaired with X3's spare parts as Crossbone X1 "Patchwork" since they show up on the Full Cloth.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by toysdream » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:42 pm

The Skull Heart is indeed labeled as the Crossbone Gundam X1 Kai Kai, but unlike the X1 Kai, this doesn't seem to be reflected in its model number (or in that of the Full Cloth). I'm faintly hoping the upcoming kit will address this, but that's probably a foolish thought.


Oh, which reminds me. The way in which Plavsky (and New Plavsky) particles work is utterly vague, but let me take a stab at the "running out of particles" issue...

Initially, all we were told about the particles was that "they react with the plastic from which Gunpla is made." By manipulating the particles, you can puppeteer the Gunpla. And thanks to "particle transformation" (粒子変容) they can also simulate beams and explosions.

Then, in episode 5 of the original Build Fighters, Maoh explains that he can compress and release stored Plavsky particles. In episode 8, the PPSE engineers mention the "particle compression rate" of the energy packs in the Kaempfer Amazing's weapons. This kind of particle storage gimmick is also the basis of the Build Strike's Absorb and Discharge systems. It's not clear to me whether all Gunpla at this point are designed to store and release Plavsky particles, but given Sei's reactions it seems like the idea comes as a surprise to him, and the systems he devises for the Build Strike are a further innovation in the state of Gunpla Battle technology. In Build Fighters episode 15, we get the additional wrinkle of the RG system, in which Plavsky particles permeate the Gunpla's inner frame to improve its handling and maximize its output.

As of Build Fighters Try, it seems like Sei's systems still aren't in general use. The SD triplets have a version of the Absorb system, but it's not like the RG system is a standard feature. Nonetheless, it seems pretty common for Gunpla to have their own internal particle supply - you couldn't really simulate Trans-Am without it.

So what exactly does this do for you? Presumably you don't need your own particle supply to move or fight - stock Gunpla could do that much just thanks to the particles that surrounded them. Rather, it seems to provide higher "output," which is to say more extravagant special effects. So the point of constantly topping up the Full Cloth's particle supply is to make sure that its attacks are always at maximum strength, rather than the basic level of effectiveness provided by the battle system. During its battle with the Gunpla Academy, they keep remarking that the Full Cloth's output never drops - it just keeps on expending extra particles, which is presumably like staying in permanent Trans-Am mode.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by DoubleZero » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:49 am

Here. Wilfrid wonders why Crossbone's output is not falling during their blade clash. It seems like an energy issue.

If it's not an energy issue, then is Crossbone naturally weaker than Transient? Wilfrid seems to imply that he would overpower Crossbone if its output falls.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:12 pm

I think it has more to with the fact that Full Cloth is a machine that burns a lot of energy quickly. Consider its specs: In addition to main thrusters powerful enough to operate within Jupiter's gravity well, its ABC mant is covered in supplemental thrusters and attitude control verniers, it wields a very high-output beam sword, and has four separate I-field generators. In comparison, Transient's main weapon is a solid blade and, since it's a 00-style Gundam, you could probably credit its particle condensers with adding to the Gunpla's operational time.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by toysdream » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:26 pm

If the particles were literally powering the Gunpla - which I think we can rule out based on the earlier series - then you'd expect all the Full Cloth's weapons to keep working at the same output until they suddenly stopped. But Wilfrid seems to be expecting that the output will drop off as the battle continues, which implies that the stored particles are basically providing a power boost beyond what the battle system would normally provide.

The Transient has its own particle supply - that's what enables it to enter Trans-Am mode at the end of the battle. But it seems like Wilfrid is able to conserve his supply throughout most of the battle, either because he's sharing the workload with two allies, or because the Transient itself is designed not to waste particles. If this stuff were better explained, and maybe depicted more consistently, we might even be able to work out a technological basis for a lot of the weird stuff we see in the show. :-)

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Outlaw » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:43 pm

Perhaps the gunpla are constantly absorbing Plavsky particles from the battle system and Lucas's Full Cloth expends those particles faster than they can naturally replenish? So it's less about running out of gas and more about fighting at maximum output for the whole battle. Especially if it really is just a stock build and doesn't have any built in particle storage or energy management systems.

As a theory it kinda works:
- Plavsky particles permeate gunpla to make it move.
- Gunpla discharge these "banked" particles to create weapon effects.
- Players discover this and design gunpla to be faster, stronger, and more efficient.

The third point would also explain why everybody doesn't incorporate a trans-am, absorb, RG, etc system into their gunpla: they have to design and build it themselves.

Really, this is probably giving a little too much thought to a show that's just supposed to be lighthearted fun, but a little elective mental gymnastics never hurt anybody.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by DoubleZero » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:35 am

toysdream wrote:But it seems like Wilfrid is able to conserve his supply throughout most of the battle, either because he's sharing the workload with two allies, or because the Transient itself is designed not to waste particles.
Transient blew a hole through that floating island using raiser sword. If Transient is really that energy efficient, then congrats to Wilfrid.
Outlaw wrote:So it's less about running out of gas and more about fighting at maximum output for the whole battle.
I think the time Lucas maximized Crossbone's output is when he used "Full Mode".
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Mimeblade » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:00 pm

Outlaw wrote: As a theory it kinda works:
- Plavsky particles permeate gunpla to make it move.
- Gunpla discharge these "banked" particles to create weapon effects.
- Players discover this and design gunpla to be faster, stronger, and more efficient.

The third point would also explain why everybody doesn't incorporate a trans-am, absorb, RG, etc system into their gunpla: they have to design and build it themselves.

Really, this is probably giving a little too much thought to a show that's just supposed to be lighthearted fun, but a little elective mental gymnastics never hurt anybody.
Just my experience in Gundam Breaker talking here, but customs are typically stronger than straight builds because you're not "bound" to the restrictions of the in-series/in-show Gunpla.

If everyone knew how to properly utilize Plavsky particles, everyone would be spamming GN Burst or Quantum Burst/Quantum Trans Am, or spamming GN Bazooka everywhere. There's a dark side to efficiency in the form of "exploitation" if everyone figures out how to do something and make things easier on themselves during a Gunpla battle, why wouldn't they?

Of course, the problem with custom builds is "overcoming the limits" the straight builds (and older custom builds) originally had (i.e. making your own 'out-of-universe' customs beyond what Gundam Breaker games can do, which is to essentially recycle existing parts without making new unheard of ones like Build Fighters does whenever it introduces a new Gunpla on the show).

I guess what I mean is, it's hard to "make sense" (use straight build logic) of something if it's completely "made up" (on customs). That's why straight builds and middle ground semi-derivatives happen so often on the show, since they already have something as a basis to go on.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by domtropen » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:47 am

The crossbone fullcloth is also a custom built.

We don't see The End and Transient spam their uber beam attacks that many times during the single round. Obviously there is a limit to how much gunpla can use its uber big attack for a given time, otherwise you would see The End just spams its purple big beam for every attack instead of fangs or head bite, or that custom paint Kyrios [or arios? I can't remember] goes trans-am since the start of the fight against lightning.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:38 am

domtropen wrote:The crossbone fullcloth is also a custom built.
Even if there wasn't an HG Full Cloth available in the real world when the episode was made, the rule of thumb seems to be that, in the BF universe, every mecha from a well-recognized Gundam source (including the animated works plus Sunrise's "favorite" side works like Crossbone and Hathaway's Flash) has a 1/144 HG kit available.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by PowerdGNFlag » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:22 am

AmuroNT1 wrote:
domtropen wrote:The crossbone fullcloth is also a custom built.
Even if there wasn't an HG Full Cloth available in the real world when the episode was made, the rule of thumb seems to be that, in the BF universe, every mecha from a well-recognized Gundam source (including the animated works plus Sunrise's "favorite" side works like Crossbone and Hathaway's Flash) has a 1/144 HG kit available.
It seems that in this case Lucas' Full Cloth had an edge by the extensive customs as compared to a stock X1/what we have now. The working Core Fighter, the scissor anchors, the chest flashlight (which was from AGE-2 Dark Hound rather than from the XBones) among others show an extensive range of modifications applied to his kit.
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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by balofo » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:39 am

-TRY-M1 Riku Tryon, TRY-M2 Umi Tryon, TRY-M3 Sora Tryon. Going by this Tryon 3 should have its own model number since Tri Zeta lacked one
-Tryon 3 used all the attacks mentioned previously on its card plus High Mega Cannon and Double Cannonade(backpack Beam Cannons). Umi Tryon has an pulse energy attack, Sora can launch beam feathers.
Last edited by balofo on Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Mimeblade » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:44 pm

Honestly, Tryon seems like a mashup of Double Zeta, Virsago, and a modded version of Destiny's Arondight Beam Sword.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Evex » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:36 pm

To me at least with this latest episode I might have an answer for the plavasky particle storage conundrum. My initial thoughts is that it has to do with the space inside the gunpla. Most gunpla of the high grade line are hollow inside, which allows them to store a certain quantity of particles. This might explain why units like the Trion 3 and the Vegan Gear Sid require three pilots. It might not be due to the size, or the ability to control such a large gunpla, but rather that these type of gunpla have such a high particle storage threshold. That it would be unfair to other participants if there was that one unit plus, another two regular gunpla.

On the other hand at the end of episode eighteen of build try fighters we see that the build burning has an inner frame, or we more clearly see the frame rather. We also hear Yumina tell sekai to conserve his particles till he gets to the battle. This suggest that the inner frame while increasing the mobile suits mobility comes at the cost of a reduced particle supply due to the gunpla having less internal space. This also makes sense when you think of sei's absorb system and why the Star Build Strike needed to absorb particles for its bigger release modes. It also makes sense why Lucas Full Cloth was recharging by taking particles directly from his team mates, who were in theory of scale using much larger gunpla then his Full cloth, which had even a further reduced capacity due to the inclusion of the core fighter.

In that line of thought most customs have a higher storage capacity due to the gunpla having more internal space. This is due to the inclusion of more parts which the the plavasky particles can internally fill. Those clear plastic bits of the Build Try Burning most likely don't sit flush with the frame, instead having space between them and the frame for particle storage. Alternatively straight builds are weaker due to mistakes during the construction of the gunpla that might let particles out of the gunpla. It's very likely that after the stilleto knife to the rib cage the END was leaking particles, and that was why it didn't go after Lucas' full cloth. This also might be why damaged gunpla stop working. In short it seems like the gunpla act like an energy cap for the plavasky particles to fill, and once that supply is exhausted the gunpla stops moving, unless it has some way to recharge those particles.

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by toysdream » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:50 pm

They established in the original series that the Build Strike had an elaborate inner frame (like that of an RG kit), and furthermore that it was permeated with stored particles. The same's clearly true of the Build Burning, and we know that the particles are stored in - and emitted from - the exposed transparent parts of its frame.

I think the bigger question is, if particle-related gimmicks from the anime generally map to Plavsky particle effects in the game, why has nobody tried using the Impulse Gundam's deuterion energy supply system for mid-battle recharging? Does everyone hate Seed Destiny that much?

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Re: The Official Gundam Build Fighters Try Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Evex » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:00 pm

My guess is that it can't use it. The deuterion system has to parts the supplier and the receiver. The impulse is equipped with a receiver, but the other part is attached to the Minerva; which in itself is a battleship. My guess is that the Minerva or any battleship would fall into the category of combining mobile suits and mobile armors. This means the system isn't actually ever used because a regular mobile suit can be the one sending the recharge beam to the impulse; just by the nature of how the technology works.

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