The Macross Valkyrie Thread

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
Post Reply
False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am

Say, the VF-22 did not have that many difference from the YF-21, right? Even the BDI system was just downgraded. Then why didn't they call it VF-21 instead of VF-22? The Sharon Apple incident was a secret anyway, so there must had been zero negative connotation to the number 21, right?

Also, did they mass-produced FAST pack for the VF-19A and VF-22? The prototypes could use them, though they seems to be of limited usefulness--I am surprise that no one seems to have tried to upgunned the VF-19 and VF-22 unlike the next generation of VF.

And which modification would need to be made to a VF to make it legal for civilian use (excluding the units used for Vanquish Races and mercenaries)? The weapons and the hardpoints would be removed, but what else?

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:33 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
Say, the VF-22 did not have that many difference from the YF-21, right?
No, the VF-22 was significantly redesigned from the YF-21 No.2 prototype that was lost over Earth in 2040.

General Galaxy had to redesign the entire control system and Airframe Control AI to remove the BDI as the primary control system and rework it into a secondary/support system subordinate to conventional controls. As Millard put it in Macross Plus, half of the YF-21's computer was its pilot's brain. They also made several refinements that changed the airframe design like redesigning the ventral fuselage to store the gunpods internally and removing the complex and expensive "active wing" composite materials from the wings and ruddervators in favor of conventional hinges and actuators.

By the end of the tear-up, the design had changed enough that the New UN Forces issued it a new designation.

For an example of this in the real world, look up the Northrop YF-17, originally facing competition to the F-16 that was significantly modified and redesignated F/A-18. (The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is another example, albeit in reverse... it was different enough to technically be an all-new aircraft, but was designated as a F/A-18 upgrade because it was felt it wouldn't make it through congressional budget approval if it were billed as a new program.)


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
[...] Even the BDI system was just downgraded. Then why didn't they call it VF-21 instead of VF-22?
Because the design had changed significantly, requiring that it be issued a new design number and treated as a different aircraft.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
[...] The Sharon Apple incident was a secret anyway, so there must had been zero negative connotation to the number 21, right?
Some aspects of the Sharon Apple incident were public knowledge - even leading to a temporary ban on Sharon's music - but the true extent of the military's involvement was covered up. The redesigns that made the YF-21 the VF-22 were mainly efforts to address the fighter's acknowledged shortcomings: the unreliable BDI system, its very expensive active wing design, and its externally-stowed gunpods.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
Also, did they mass-produced FAST pack for the VF-19A and VF-22? The prototypes could use them, though they seems to be of limited usefulness--I am surprise that no one seems to have tried to upgunned the VF-19 and VF-22 unlike the next generation of VF.
The YF-21's ventral FAST Packs were basically incorporated into the VF-22's fuselage as a permanent feature, but the rest of the YF-21's FAST Pack doesn't appear to have been carried over to production.

The YF-19's FAST Pack was carried over to production for use on the first mass production specification VF-19 - on the VF-19A/B/C/D/E - but a new model FAST Pack was developed for the second mass production specification we see in Macross 7.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am
And which modification would need to be made to a VF to make it legal for civilian use (excluding the units used for Vanquish Races and mercenaries)? The weapons and the hardpoints would be removed, but what else?
Because there are defense contractors, private security companies, and governments sponsoring Vanquish League teams for purposes other than simple victory like evaluating new or updated technologies in an inconspicuous way, the line between that and "civilian use" has blurred a bit... and it also seems to vary somewhat according to local laws.

The Vanquish League requires that VFs participating in its races - most of which are models either purchased from national militaries at disposal sales or acquired through simply having gargantuan amounts of ready cash - have no live weapons onboard during competitions. They can still have the means to mount those weapons, but they can't be actively armed during a competition and the overwhelming majority of league competitors have removed their VF's weapons for the sake of weight reduction and power savings.

From what we've seen in the few stories to feature civilian VFs, most VFs sold to civilians are either models which were built unarmed by the manufacturer or were disarmed by the military before being sold off at a disposal sale. Many of them seem to be capable of mounting armaments if their owners are somehow able to obtain them, such as Grant's VT-1C in Macross Dynamite 7 being armed with a harpoon gun. The one place we've seen where it seems to be normal for civilian-use VFs to be armed is Uroboros, a frontier planet with VERY dangerous "wildlife" (the Dyaus, a Protoculture construct species intended to keep people out of the Protoculture ruins) where a NGO called the Hunter's Guild was formed to coordinate and regulate the activities of civilian freelancers who provide freelance security services, work as bounty hunters, etc. due to the Uroboros government lacking the resources to police its territory comprehensively.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

Henyo
Posts: 622
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Henyo » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm

Because there are defense contractors, private security companies, and governments sponsoring Vanquish League teams for purposes other than simple victory like evaluating new or updated technologies in an inconspicuous way, the line between that and "civilian use" has blurred a bit... and it also seems to vary somewhat according to local laws.

The Vanquish League requires that VFs participating in its races - most of which are models either purchased from national militaries at disposal sales or acquired through simply having gargantuan amounts of ready cash
so going by this, it's possible for an in universe filthy stinkin rich otaku to have some freelance tech dudes(or whatever jobs is needed for development) make a working version of a Shump ship? like the Ray series ships, Raiden MK II the like? i have a macross fanfic in the works and i want the MC to use the Raiden MK-II with VF tech. that or an R-Gray 1 or 2 unit.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:03 pm

Speaking of BDI, has there been any mentioning about how different the neural structure of different species to humans? We know pretty well about the Zentrandi, but what about the others?

And I wonder if you could just clone your brain and let it handle most of the strain of the prototype BDI system. But that does not factor in how would you communicate with your second brain, or if a lab-grownth brain understand the conventions of human language at all without living in a body. And I guess that by the time of Frontier, the systems on the YF-27 had already made BDI obsolete.

Also, what was the VF-19 B/C/D supposed to be again? If I remember correctly, there were some VF-19 in Macross the Ride that were meant to be used in the atmosphere, right?

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:40 pm

Henyo wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm
so going by this, it's possible for an in universe filthy stinkin rich otaku to have some freelance tech dudes(or whatever jobs is needed for development) make a working version of a Shump ship? like the Ray series ships, Raiden MK II the like? i have a macross fanfic in the works and i want the MC to use the Raiden MK-II with VF tech. that or an R-Gray 1 or 2 unit.
Maybe?

It'd depend on how much actual customization needed to be done. We've never seen a straight-up 100% custom VF in Macross, but we have seen the filthy rich or suspiciously well-connected get their hands on things they absolutely shouldn't be able to. For instance:
  • Manfred Brando, the head of the defense contractor Critical Path, is known to have rather worryingly had a privately owned and fully armed VF-17S Nightmare at a time (c.2050-2051) when the VF-17 was still in widespread use by New UN Forces Special Forces troops.
  • Magdalena Zielonaska, the air racing heiress to the interstellar banking and finance giant Vistula & Oder in the light novel Macross the Ride owned an extensively customized variable fighter of unclear origin which she claims is a Unification Wars-vintage SV-51 once flown by her grandfather. Her "SV-52 Oryol" uses a lot of VF-17 parts and boasts performance comparable or superior to the VF-171-IIs used by the Frontier NUNS in 2058.
  • Vanquish's "Uncrowned King" Hakuna Aoba owned a New UN Spacy Special Forces variant of the VF-1 intended for covert operations - the VF-1X++ - which had been extensively modified after he acquired it to replace its engines with engines of comparable power to those in the VF-19 or VF-22. When that aircraft was destroyed, his connections with Strategic Military Services and the New UN Forces somehow enabled him to get what was essentially a reproduction version of the VF-0 made principally with spare YF-25 parts (the VF-0 Custom "Zeke").
  • Major Isamu A. Dyson of the New UN Spacy Reserve ended up as a civilian owner of a custom VF-19EF Caliburn in the late 2050s due to Shinsei Industry and Dr. Jan Neumann being legitimately afraid of what he might try to do once they'd refused to sell him VF-19 parts under the table. The prospect of Isamu's Leeroy Jenkins idiocy was so frightening that Shinsei gave him a custom VF-19EF Caliburn as part of a late service life upgrade evaluation project to prevent him from doing anything blatantly illegal or suicidally stupid.
  • Macross 30s Mei Ririon and Macross Delta Gaiden: Macross E's Ivan Tsari have somehow acquired their own personal VF-27s, despite this model not being known to be available outside the Macross Galaxy fleet. Mei Ririon is the head of the Hunter's Guild NGO on Uroboros, and Ivan Tsari is the head of Zelgaar Heavy Industries and a (now-dead) leading researcher in fold song.
  • Elma Hoyly - yes, the same one from Macross Dynamite 7 - managed to obtain a VF-19 Custom identical to Nekki Basara's military black project Fire Valkyrie through unknown channels c.2062. She is a researcher with a PhD working out in a galactic backwater. How she managed that, I have NO IDEA.
  • Ganess Modora, the self-proclaimed "BANDIT KING!" (capital emphasis very much intended, he has no indoor voice), owned a personal VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX that he obtained through illicit means with the assistance of the rogue NUNS VF-X Special Forces unit Havamal.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:55 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:03 pm
Speaking of BDI, has there been any mentioning about how different the neural structure of different species to humans? We know pretty well about the Zentrandi, but what about the others?
Nope... we know the Zentradi are virtually identical to humans in almost every respect including genetically, but nothing has been said about any other species internal anatomy. Given that many are stated or implied to be close enough to a human to interbreed, as Zentradi and Zolans have both done, it seems unlikely their brains are structured very differently from a human's.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:03 pm
And I wonder if you could just clone your brain and let it handle most of the strain of the prototype BDI system. But that does not factor in how would you communicate with your second brain, or if a lab-grownth brain understand the conventions of human language at all without living in a body. And I guess that by the time of Frontier, the systems on the YF-27 had already made BDI obsolete.
There's not really any significant strain involved in operating a BDI system... the problem is that the system's stability is dependent on the pilot's ability to concentrate. The full BDI system can pick up on aggressive impulses and react in an unexpected way (as Guld's did when he caused Isamu's VF-11 to crash) or lose control of the aircraft completely if the pilot's concentration is sufficiently disrupted (as happened to Guld). Basically, to use the original full BDI system that's installed on the YF-21 No.2 you'd need to have truly zen-like focus and mental stability.

The cybernetic interface essentially solves the stability problems by putting a software intermediary between the brain and the control computer of the VF.

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:03 pm
Also, what was the VF-19 B/C/D supposed to be again? If I remember correctly, there were some VF-19 in Macross the Ride that were meant to be used in the atmosphere, right?
The VF-19B, -C, and -D are all further variants based on the VF-19A/YF-19. The VF-19A and VF-19C are single seaters, while Master File alleges the -B and -D are two-seater training versions of the -A and -C respectively.

The VF-19E's status is disputed, but the more official of the sources indicates that it's the final version of the intial type VF-19 similar to the VF-19A and VF-19C.

Macross the Ride had several different VF-19s in it. The military use VF-19EF Caliburn, a remodeled local spec version of the VF-19E used by the Frontier NUNS and SMS, the MAcross Galaxy fleet's VF-19C/MG21 local spec VF-19C, a custom VF-19A used as a racing plane by Vanquish League's team Shinsei, and a custom VF-19 designated as the VF-19ACTIVE that was used to evaluate tech for the YF-25.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sat May 02, 2020 11:43 am

Say, is there a reason that Myung was chosen to be a component of Sharon Apple's personality, beside the fact that she had a great singging voice and was readily available as Sharon's manager? You would think that Marge Gueldoa was dumb not to look into Myung's psycological profile and think about what would happen if he install that chip.

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat May 02, 2020 1:26 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:43 am
Say, is there a reason that Myung was chosen to be a component of Sharon Apple's personality, beside the fact that she had a great singging voice and was readily available as Sharon's manager?
I don't recall them explicitly giving one reason that Myung was chosen.

Myung was probably selected to be Sharon Apple's puppeteer and the sampling source for her neural network because she was someone who had aspired to be a top idol singer, but whose career had never really taken off. Her experience training to be an idol, her natural music talent, and her aspirations probably made her the ideal candidate in the eyes of the Venus Sound Factory and Macross Concern.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:43 am
You would think that Marge Gueldoa was dumb not to look into Myung's psycological profile and think about what would happen if he install that chip.
As obsessed as Marge was with bringing Sharon Apple to "life", I doubt he ever truly thought of Myung as more than a component of the Sharon Apple system at best or a superficial rival for control of the project and Sharon at worst. He was probably not at all interested in who Myung was as a person.

Psychological profiling is not an infallible source of information on a person's mindset either. That kind of thing largely depends on comparing the information the subject is willing to volunteer and the analyst's interpretation of it (and any obviously withheld stuff) lining up with standard models of behavior. If Myung was unwilling to volunteer info about a private incident that caused her psychological duress, they wouldn't have had any way to know.

(Therapy, as they say, only works if you work with your therapist.)
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:26 pm
As obsessed as Marge was with bringing Sharon Apple to "life", I doubt he ever truly thought of Myung as more than a component of the Sharon Apple system at best or a superficial rival for control of the project and Sharon at worst. He was probably not at all interested in who Myung was as a person.

Psychological profiling is not an infallible source of information on a person's mindset either. That kind of thing largely depends on comparing the information the subject is willing to volunteer and the analyst's interpretation of it (and any obviously withheld stuff) lining up with standard models of behavior. If Myung was unwilling to volunteer info about a private incident that caused her psychological duress, they wouldn't have had any way to know.

(Therapy, as they say, only works if you work with your therapist.)
Is there any mention about what Marge's expertise really was? I suppose that if he was only a tech guy and did not know anything about psychology, he might had overlooked Myung. It wouldn't make sense, though. I am aware that a lot of designers and programmers nowadays are being taught behavioural science. Heck, some programmers I know even say that you can discern something about someone by looking at their codes.

Also, the military knew about Guld's biological problem, right? Wouldn't it be a more important factor to take into consideration because of the way BDI works? They could had let someone more stable to pilot the YF-21, right?

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun May 03, 2020 3:10 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 pm
Is there any mention about what Marge's expertise really was? I suppose that if he was only a tech guy and did not know anything about psychology, he might had overlooked Myung. It wouldn't make sense, though.
Marge Gueldoa had two official roles in Sharon Apple's support organization... his main role was as lead developer of the Sharon Apple AI system, but he's also an assistant producer for Sharon Apple working under Myung Fang Lone. It could be argued that he didn't really have the clout to be second-guessing Myung, since he was her subordinate and the studio's president had put her in charge of him and his team.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 pm
I am aware that a lot of designers and programmers nowadays are being taught behavioural science. Heck, some programmers I know even say that you can discern something about someone by looking at their codes.
... that's not part of any software development curriculum I've seen.

The only time I've encountered anything like behavioral science in a programming-related discipline has been in network security, which is more a subset of IT than software development. Even then, most of what's taught is just how to recognize things like social engineering attacks, not really actual behavioral science.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 pm
Also, the military knew about Guld's biological problem, right? Wouldn't it be a more important factor to take into consideration because of the way BDI works? They could had let someone more stable to pilot the YF-21, right?
There were presumably some kind of records indicating that Guld had an aggression management problem that he was self-medicating for, but those records were presumably private/confidential. The New UN Forces didn't know about it until Col. Johnson initiated a confidential inquiry into Guld following the testing accident in which Guld's YF-21 No.2 totaled VF-11B "Chaser One" flown by Isamu Dyson after it had recovered the YF-21 No.2 from a total loss of control situation. The investigation that Millard ordered led to the discovery of Guld's neurochemical issue, which MIllard buried to protect the program.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sun May 03, 2020 7:57 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:10 am
... that's not part of any software development curriculum I've seen.

The only time I've encountered anything like behavioral science in a programming-related discipline has been in network security, which is more a subset of IT than software development. Even then, most of what's taught is just how to recognize things like social engineering attacks, not really actual behavioral science.
That is weird. I have a few friends who attended computer science at university and were taught behavioral science. One even lent me his textbook, which I distinctively remember having this example in the foreword of programmers using behavioral science to code jackpot machines.

Then again, the university they attended was one of those corporate-sponsored school that trains future employees. I think that company also has a foot in social network and robotic, such is why psychology is included in the curricullum.

Say, how modular were the VF-0, VF-1 and SV-51 were? Weren't there some units in Macross the Ride that were outfitted with new components that made them as good as the VF-11/VF-17/etc.? I imagine with such a complex and ill-understood machinery like variable fighters at the time, they would had been built to strict specifications, not future expansions in mind?

(Were the Striker/Armored Packs and ELINT always part of the plan?)

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun May 03, 2020 3:58 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:57 am
That is weird. I have a few friends who attended computer science at university and were taught behavioral science. One even lent me his textbook, which I distinctively remember having this example in the foreword of programmers using behavioral science to code jackpot machines.
That's very atypical.

Even advanced programming courses generally do not focus at all on behavioral science. The closest they usually get would be some minor human factors considerations in interface design and use-case analysis.


False Prophet wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:57 am
Say, how modular were the VF-0, VF-1 and SV-51 were? Weren't there some units in Macross the Ride that were outfitted with new components that made them as good as the VF-11/VF-17/etc.? I imagine with such a complex and ill-understood machinery like variable fighters at the time, they would had been built to strict specifications, not future expansions in mind?
Generally speaking, most aircraft designs intended for large-scale and/or long-term production and use are designed with the expectation of having to incorporate future improvements like new capabilities and updated technology. The way this is planned for varies, but it's often expressed as an expectation that the aircraft will gain x many kilograms in mass per year of operation due to upgrades. Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie puts the expected mass gain from upgrades for the VF-1 at 100kg/year.

Replacing engines isn't really that big of a deal for an aircraft. Most jets are designed in the expectation that they'll be receiving an engine upgrade at some point in their service lives. There will of course be compatibility issues based on engine size, but as long as the engine will fit an aircraft can usually be adapted to run it... it all depends how much you want to spend in terms of time, money, and effort, and these air racers with their one-of-a-kind custom aircraft have an awful lot of time and a fair amount of money on their hands. Especially the ones who are sponsored by megacorps or the independently wealthy.

It's not that these designs are modular, it's that the more spaceous the airframe the easier it is to get in there and make extensive modifications. A lot of the early model VFs were pretty compact and didn't have a lot of space to play with in making such modifications, but the VF-0 and SV-51 stand out as some of the very largest variable fighters becuase the conventional turbofan jet engines they used needed a LOT of fuel and the designers tried to make the safety margin as large as possible. That means that there's a gargantuan amount of space to exploit inside their airframes when taking out those early OTM and pre-OTM systems and replacing them with more compact and powerful modern tech. That's what let Magdalena Zielonaska get away with essentially rebuilding an SV-51 to modern technological standards, and enabled Katori Brown-Robins to essentially create a replica VF-0 using spare YF-25 parts. Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ is a different story, since it's not an original production VF-1 from the 2010s, it's a modernized VF-1 from the 2040s that he minimally modified by removing its weapons systems, swapping out its engines, and adding some bolt-on rockets for additional power.

General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire is one model of VF that was noted to have been highly prized even when it was brand new for its extremely roomy airframe that made modifying and upgrading it a snap, giving it a long service life and high versatility. (This, of course, came back to bite the New UN Forces a bit in the mid-2040s when VF-14s were used as the basis for the Protodeviln's Fz-109 and Az-130 variable fighters, which boasted performance closer to that of the VF-17 Nightmare than their onetime rival the VF-11 Thunderbolt.)


False Prophet wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:57 am
(Were the Striker/Armored Packs and ELINT always part of the plan?)
Various models of FAST Pack were a part of the Variable Fighter program from an early stage. The Armored Pack and Super Pack were created to improve the VF-1's performance under certain conditions where the design requirements (usually its airframe size) had forced compromises. They were designed to be modular, so that improvements could be made easily and new capabilities added as needed. The Strike Pack was a late addition that built on the modularity of the existing FAST Pack design, as were several others.

The ELINT pack seems to have been something that came along later. The early VF-1 had to improvise on several of its roles, like a model conversion trainer, and as new needs arose they just kept improvising until actual production-ready versions were available. The VF-1D's tandem cockpit came at the cost of redesigning the existing cockpit block and cutting its life support systems down. The VEFR-1 was a further conversion of that improvised trainer that mounted ELINT and AWACS hardware. Later on (read Block 6+) they got proper replacements.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Tue May 05, 2020 2:45 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:58 pm
Generally speaking, most aircraft designs intended for large-scale and/or long-term production and use are designed with the expectation of having to incorporate future improvements like new capabilities and updated technology. The way this is planned for varies, but it's often expressed as an expectation that the aircraft will gain x many kilograms in mass per year of operation due to upgrades. Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie puts the expected mass gain from upgrades for the VF-1 at 100kg/year.

Replacing engines isn't really that big of a deal for an aircraft. Most jets are designed in the expectation that they'll be receiving an engine upgrade at some point in their service lives. There will of course be compatibility issues based on engine size, but as long as the engine will fit an aircraft can usually be adapted to run it... it all depends how much you want to spend in terms of time, money, and effort, and these air racers with their one-of-a-kind custom aircraft have an awful lot of time and a fair amount of money on their hands. Especially the ones who are sponsored by megacorps or the independently wealthy.

It's not that these designs are modular, it's that the more spaceous the airframe the easier it is to get in there and make extensive modifications. A lot of the early model VFs were pretty compact and didn't have a lot of space to play with in making such modifications, but the VF-0 and SV-51 stand out as some of the very largest variable fighters becuase the conventional turbofan jet engines they used needed a LOT of fuel and the designers tried to make the safety margin as large as possible. That means that there's a gargantuan amount of space to exploit inside their airframes when taking out those early OTM and pre-OTM systems and replacing them with more compact and powerful modern tech. That's what let Magdalena Zielonaska get away with essentially rebuilding an SV-51 to modern technological standards, and enabled Katori Brown-Robins to essentially create a replica VF-0 using spare YF-25 parts. Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ is a different story, since it's not an original production VF-1 from the 2010s, it's a modernized VF-1 from the 2040s that he minimally modified by removing its weapons systems, swapping out its engines, and adding some bolt-on rockets for additional power.

General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire is one model of VF that was noted to have been highly prized even when it was brand new for its extremely roomy airframe that made modifying and upgrading it a snap, giving it a long service life and high versatility. (This, of course, came back to bite the New UN Forces a bit in the mid-2040s when VF-14s were used as the basis for the Protodeviln's Fz-109 and Az-130 variable fighters, which boasted performance closer to that of the VF-17 Nightmare than their onetime rival the VF-11 Thunderbolt.)
That explaination makes me want to question this: So the VF-3000 is just a VF-1 in the size of the VF-0? Would that make sense, since OTM technology were supposed to be more compact, eta the VF-3000 should had been smaller, not bigger? Or was Stonewell only able to miniaturize the VF-5000 because the VF-3000 refined it technologies?

Also, is there any benefit to pass over the VF-4 and VF-5000 for an upgraded VF-1? Or, how good was a modernized VF-1X? I mean, a car or a computer is only as fast as its slowest component, so I suppose having a completely modern package like the VF-4 and VF-5000 is the superior choice? Then again, running two different VF at the same time sounds kind of expensive for colonization fleets.

(How is performace of a VF is actually measured? It's more than just raw specs, right? I imagine using some Frankenstein VF-0/SV-51 takes a lot of skills to pull it off, comparing to a newer model.)

(A side question: How do car people could just look at a car and tell which design features come from which other cars? I can't just tell how the hell could they remember the specific shape of a car's tail lights, grills, etc.)

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue May 05, 2020 2:38 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:45 am
That explaination makes me want to question this: So the VF-3000 is just a VF-1 in the size of the VF-0? Would that make sense, since OTM technology were supposed to be more compact, eta the VF-3000 should had been smaller, not bigger? Or was Stonewell only able to miniaturize the VF-5000 because the VF-3000 refined it technologies?
One of the most problematic design constraints of the Earth UN Government's plans for its 1st Gen Variable Fighter was that its humanoid configuration (Battroid mode) should be as close to the projected size of the alien starship's giant crew as possible.

That requirement had knock-on effects all over the design. The planned coaxial machine guns in the head had to be replaced with a more space-efficient laser system, it wasn't going to be able to carry much weaponry, and the internal capacity for fuel was too small to be an effective space fighter on its own... which made conformal fuel tanks and other bolt-on option packs necessary. Because much of Earth's defenses were based in space, that the VF-1 came up short as a space fighter was a significant problem.

Stonewell and Bellcom, the co-developers of the VF-1 Valkyrie, were working on two different 2nd Generation VF designs shortly before the First Space War broke out. One was a new, more radical design concept for a next-gen VF with a hybrid of a catamaran-style body and flying wing (the VF-X-4) and the other was an attempt to improve the VF-1 Valkyrie's design concept by enlarging the fuselage to allow it to carry more fuel, weaporny, and mission-specific equipment (the VF-3000). There were plans to introduce the VF-3000 ahead of the VF-4 as a supplement to the VF-1 that could be built locally by various national governments under the UN Government, but all of their plans were scuttled by the First Space War and the military rushing the VF-4 into service in 2012. The VF-3000's enlargement of the VF-1's design caused some mechanical issues that ultimately saw the military pass on it after testing several in the field. After Stonewell and Bellcom merged with Shinakasu Heavy Industry to form Shinsei Industry, the lessons learned from the VF-3000's development were used to produce the VF-5000 to supplement their VF-4s in the field due to the VF-4's lacking performance as an atmospheric fighter.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:45 am
Also, is there any benefit to pass over the VF-4 and VF-5000 for an upgraded VF-1? Or, how good was a modernized VF-1X? I mean, a car or a computer is only as fast as its slowest component, so I suppose having a completely modern package like the VF-4 and VF-5000 is the superior choice? Then again, running two different VF at the same time sounds kind of expensive for colonization fleets.
Not really, no... but the military is loathe to just throw anything away. Both the VF-4 and VF-5000 outperform the VF-1, but upgrading an existing fighter you already have is usually cheaper than buying a new one and retraining a lot of pilots on the new fighter. Even the final VF-1X+ Valkyrie's performance with a Super Pack equipped was just about equal to the initial type VF-11's, but the VF-1s soldiered on because they were there, they were cheap, and they weren't totally worn out yet.

The VF-4 Lightning III's adoption didn't push the VF-1 Valkyrie out of service. The VF-4's shortcomings in planetary operations and the slow ramp-up in production meant that many early emigrant fleets launched with a mixture of VF-1's and VF-4's. It helped that the VF-4A shared about 25% of its parts with the contemporary production blocks of the VF-1, streamlining support operations. Once postwar production capabilities were more established, those VF-1's started to get supplanted by newer models made for economical production and maintenance for emigrant fleet and planet use like the VF-5, VF-5000, VF-6, VF-7, and VF-9. Those governments didn't just throw away the VF-1 though, because they were still there and still operational, so upgrades continued to be made over time due to the low cost of doing so. Fighters'll carry on in service for decades even once they're no longer the newest and greatest simply because replacement, retraining, and so on are expensive and time-consuming. Even after those older models are no longer directly viable in combat they'll still be used for training purposes and eventually as a remotely-operated target for live fire exercises.

Early emigrant fleets were much more limited in terms of resources, manpower, etc. compared to the larger and more independent later fleets, so they needed to pinch pennies aggressively when it came to defense spending... and hanging onto the VF-1 Valkyrie was one way to do that.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:45 am
(How is performace of a VF is actually measured? It's more than just raw specs, right? I imagine using some Frankenstein VF-0/SV-51 takes a lot of skills to pull it off, comparing to a newer model.)
It's not clear how it's measured in-universe, we usually just get statements of how one exceeds another in terms of specific categories of specs or just a percentage improvement in capability. The VF-4 is said to be 40% better than the VF-1 Super Valkyrie in space combat, for instance.

Fans usually go to objective metrics like the thrust-to-weight ratio, climb rate, service ceiling, g-limit, top speed at altitude, and other data points.

The VF-0 and SV-51 were definitely more unforgiving aircraft to fly, because the airframe control AI was still very new and wasn't populated with a lot of operational data. Think of it like how the RX-78-2 Gundam's learning computer made it very clumsy initially but it got better and better with time, and then once the prototype built enough of a database for maneuvers, the mass production model copied that data. The difficulty was also high because they had lower armor strength and less operating time due to using conventional jet turbofans for thrust and energy generation. Instead of weeks of flight time, they had mere hours at best and needed to rely on drop tanks to extend their range to a useful level.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:45 am
(A side question: How do car people could just look at a car and tell which design features come from which other cars? I can't just tell how the hell could they remember the specific shape of a car's tail lights, grills, etc.)
It's all about familiarity with those other cars... people can retain a lot of information if they're interested in a topic.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

User avatar
Nevermore
Moderator
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:12 pm

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Nevermore » Tue May 05, 2020 7:06 pm

(A side question: How do car people could just look at a car and tell which design features come from which other cars? I can't just tell how the hell could they remember the specific shape of a car's tail lights, grills, etc.)
Mechanics do that.
Eschew obfuscation.

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Mon May 11, 2020 7:58 am

Do we know which VF competed with the YF-24 to become NUNS new service fighter? Could it be that descendant of the VF-14 whose silhouette had been revealed months ago?

Also, why did the YF-14 lost to the VF-11 again? To me it seems like the YF-14 took the cake in firepower and operational time, but lost in term of weight.

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am

False Prophet wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:58 am
Do we know which VF competed with the YF-24 to become NUNS new service fighter?
Nope... we can't even say if there was one, since the available descriptions of the YF-24 program don't mention one and indicate the original YF-24 was a joint venture between Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy. If there were two rival programs instead of one, it'd have to be YF-23 since there are no other unassigned numbers in that range.

False Prophet wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:58 am
Could it be that descendant of the VF-14 whose silhouette had been revealed months ago?
Unlikely, IMO... the design that was debuted for Absolute LIVE!!!!!! is supposed to be a new VF c.2067.

False Prophet wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:58 am
Also, why did the YF-14 lost to the VF-11 again? To me it seems like the YF-14 took the cake in firepower and operational time, but lost in term of weight.
At the time, the New UN Forces were looking for a single all-regime main Variable Fighter to replace the VF-4 which was the military's main fighter in space and the handful of other designs (VF-5, VF-5000, VF-6, VF-7, etc.) that were supplementing it in atmospheric roles. The VF-14 was, at its heart, a space fighter that still suffered from many of the VF-4's design shortcomings in atmosphere.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 pm

In regard to the VF-3000, VF-14 and VF-31, they were never formally adopted by NUNS, right? (I think I did see some VF-31 with NUNS marking in Master Archive) If so, then how could they use the "VF-" designation? Is that designation something only NUNS could use, or that any manufacturer could use it? If the later is the case, then what would prevents:

- Manufacturers to use the designation is a deceiving marketing ploy, even when their machines are not adopted by NUNS

- Two manufacturers making two different models but with the same "VF-" designation

- People trademark the name "VF-X", with X is any number, then demand manufacturers to pay them for the right of the name. You know, like people buying up domains names in real life; unless, of course, the court reject any attemp to trademark "VF" because it is a generic product name.

User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri May 22, 2020 1:54 am

False Prophet wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 pm
In regard to the VF-3000, VF-14 and VF-31, they were never formally adopted by NUNS, right?
Stonewell and Bellcom's VF-3000 Crusader was ultimately not adopted by the New UN Forces... but it did make it into limited trial production and the very last phase of acceptance testing - called Operational Evaluation - which immediately precedes adoption and the start of mass production. The double handful of trial production VF-3000 units that were delivered to the military for Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL) were given to units like the Dancing Skulls special forces team to be tested in live combat or conditions as close to it as possible to see how it held up. After receiving the results of that testing, the military decided to pass on the VF-3000 and never ordered its mass production.

General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire did lose out to Shinsei Industry's VF-11 Thunderbolt in Project Nova, the military's design competition to select their next-generation(3rd Generation) main Variable Fighter. However, sometimes a losing design can still end up being adopted and put into production in a different role or capacity. The F/A-18 is actually an example of this... having originated as the YF-17, a failed competitor to the F-16 Falcon. The VF-14's exceptional performance as a heavy-duty space VF did not go unnoticed, so despite missing out on being the New UN Forces main VF the VF-14 and its attacker derivative the VA-14 still found themselves in limited service in the main/central New UN Forces. A number of emigrant fleets and planets whose assessment of their defense needs differed from the central military's felt the VF-14 was a better fit for their needs, and opted to pass on the VF-11 in favor of adopting the VF-14 as their next-generation main VF. The colony in the Varauta system was one of the governments to adopt the VF-14 as the main VF, and when the Protodeviln invaded and took over the colony they used the VF-14 and VA-14 as the basis for their Fz-109 and Az-130 variable fighters (in Macross 7).

Surya Aerospace's VF-31 Kairos and Shinsei Industry and LAI's VF-25 Messiah were in similar circumstances when we see them in their respective shows. Both VFs were in Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL), the final phase of military acceptance testing they need to pass before being adopted by their respective local New UN Forces when we saw them in their respective shows. In both cases, the local governments decided to farm the task of testing them in live combat or conditions as close to it as possible out to private military contractors for liability reasons. A PMC employee who dies in combat is legally considered to have died in an accident, and thus the red tape is kept to a minimum during testing. The VF-25 was approved and went into mass production in the early 2060s. Kawamori's commentary in Great Mechanics G has indicated that the VF-31 Kairos is expected to be approved and enter New UN Forces service in the Brisingr globular cluster in 2069 or 2070.


False Prophet wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 pm
If so, then how could they use the "VF-" designation? Is that designation something only NUNS could use, or that any manufacturer could use it?
So, the designation system the Earth UN Forces and New UN Forces use is heavily inspired by the United States's 1962 tri-service aircraft designation system. It's broken down into a couple sections:

There's the Status Prefix, which tells you if the aircraft has a special status like being experimental (X), a prototype (Y), permanently grounded (G), special test use (J or N), or a planning model (Z). The usage of this is somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes experimental VFs are designated VF-X-# instead of XVF-#. Prototypes often get designated as YF-#, though YVF-# is sometimes seen as well and the latter is technically more correct.

Then there's the Mission Code, which tells you what role the aircraft is for. F for Fighter, A for Attacker, B for Bomber, and so on. Variable craft technically have a two-letter basic mission code starting with V. If a design was built for multiple roles, it'll have more than one mission letter like the VBR-2 that was built for bombing and reconnaissance or the VEFR-1 that fills fighter, electronic warfare, and reconnaissance roles.

Following a hyphen is the Design Number, a unique sequential number assigned to the design.

Then there's the Series Letter, which tells you what variant of the design you're looking at.

Use of the "VF" designation just denotes that military considers the design to have reached a "production-ready" level of completion... it doesn't necessarily have to actually make it into mass production or be widely adopted before that status is reached. To give a real-world example, the Lockheed YF-12 was approved as a production-ready design and the production specification was officially designated F-12B in 1965... but the mass production order was cancelled before any aircraft were built, and the prototype was further developed into the SR-71.

This same principle also works in reverse. If a design is put into production before it's considered to be actually production-ready, it'll still be classified as a prototype even though they're building them in numbers. Both the New UN Government and central New UN Forces consider the Macross Galaxy fleet's VF-27 to be YF-27 due to it having never gone through the official process and necessary disclosures to be declared a production aircraft in their designation system. The YF-29B Perceval is in similar straits, having been put into limited production on Uroboros on the orders of a rogue New UN Spacy Special Forces unit without official approval.


False Prophet wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 pm
- People trademark the name "VF-X", with X is any number, then demand manufacturers to pay them for the right of the name. You know, like people buying up domains names in real life; unless, of course, the court reject any attemp to trademark "VF" because it is a generic product name.
The military's designation system is government property, and thus not trademark-able.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...

False Prophet
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Fri May 22, 2020 7:56 am

Thanks for the clarification, Kaiba. Also, by your explanation, does that mean when a machine is given the YF designation, it means NUNS or its local branch is seriously evaluating the machine? It's likely before that point, the machine has some kind of company internal-only designation, right? Has there ever been a case of NUNS getting it wrong and awarded the YF designation to a machine that was basically half-baked in the design process?

Say, how hard is it to maintain VF with stealth capability like the VF-17? I recently read some articles from the 1990s complaining about how much money went to maintaining the F-117 and the B-2 (like storing them in environment-controlled rooms), both of which becoming basically paperweights.

Post Reply