The Macross Valkyrie Thread

[Seto Kaiba]

Sometimes, the lineart is misleading.

Yup... esp. when it comes to gimmicks that were added for a single episode. You wouldn't believe how much confusion the leg bays the VF-11C spontaneously manifested for Operation Stargazer caused.

I didn't expect the thinner leg of the VF-171 to have space for the gun pod. Also, its gun pod seems too long for the leg. Where is the the port for the gun pod to shoot out of?

It should be around the outside edge of the knee... though I don't think they ever put it on the CG model proper, since it was meant to be a background mecha and almost never uses that gunpod.

The gunpod itself is only about half as long as it looks. Everything aft of the grip is a folding stock that wraps around the barrels in storage mode.

Does the VF-171 also have the same weapon bays as the VF-17?

According to Macross Chronicle, yes.

[Seto Kaiba]

Did s'more translation work to uncover the details behind the later generations of thermonuclear reaction turbine engine in Master File. There's some interesting stuff there about how they use gravity control to moderate airflow through the engine.

I'm gonna be taking a whack at some of the content from the new Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1S Roy Focker Special tomorrow as well. The book's almost a 50-50 split between awesome new tech content and filler about background designs from the First Space War. It offers some interesting details about the actual manufacturing of the VF-1 as well as how its ANGIRAS airframe control AI operates.

[False Prophet]

Since Kawamori has the habit of reusing old designs, which designs from the Macross Design Works (https://e-hentai.org/g/964676/268dd04850/) that hasn't turned up in animation would you like to appear?

[Seto Kaiba]

Since Kawamori has the habit of reusing old designs, which designs from the Macross Design Works (https://e-hentai.org/g/964676/268dd04850/) that hasn't turned up in animation would you like to appear?

Most of that stuff is already in Macross in one form or another... apart from a few designs that were made for the Air Cavalry Chronicles series that evolved into the Varauta VFs from Macross 7,the only design that's really not part of Macross proper in that book right now is the VF-1's Stampede Pack from the non-canon line of FamilySoft Macross games for the PC98.

The Advanced Valkyrie designs were largely all brought in as prototype VFs belonging to the 2nd or 3rd Generation back in '08 (if not earlier).

[False Prophet]

Just want to give people a heads-up: The next VF (the VF-14's descendant) will be revealed at the ongoing Tamashii Nation exhibition.

Also, could someone tell me what is this all about: https://i.4cdn.org/m/1604788889624.jpg

[Seto Kaiba]

Just want to give people a heads-up: The next VF (the VF-14's descendant) will be revealed at the ongoing Tamashii Nation exhibition.

Pics and ongoing technical analysis at MacrossWorld:
http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/4 ... nt=1555585

Also, could someone tell me what is this all about: https://i.4cdn.org/m/1604788889624.jpg

They're going to do a new Macross Frontier live concert.

[False Prophet]

Pics and ongoing technical analysis at MacrossWorld:
http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/4 ... nt=1555585

They're going to do a new Macross Frontier live concert.

It's an interesting technical analysis you have been laying out over MacrossWorld. It makes me want to ask this though: Why is the design principles/cues of the SV-51 and VF-4 persisted for so long in General Galaxy? The people who designed these machines must have either died or retired by the time of Delta, right? Unless their students are still around and now are General Galaxy bigwigs.

And do you see a segmenting of the market, with Shinsei captured most of the mass-production market, while General Galaxy made high-performance VF for special forces and the like? It feels to me like that is the kind of production orientation they could push after the Vajra War.

And about the Macross Frontier concert, I thought that it should had been a Walkure one because of the upcoming movie. Are they making this concert for the 10th anniversary of the Frontier movies?

[Seto Kaiba]

It's an interesting technical analysis you have been laying out over MacrossWorld. It makes me want to ask this though: Why is the design principles/cues of the SV-51 and VF-4 persisted for so long in General Galaxy? The people who designed these machines must have either died or retired by the time of Delta, right? Unless their students are still around and now are General Galaxy bigwigs.

Part of it is probably that the VF-4's trimaran-type design is a very efficient design in the sense that it allows for a very large usable wing area while also providing a good deal of usable internal space for things like fuel and weaponry. Its one major area of weakness is that it's more aerodynamically stable than the more traditional fighter designs used by the VF-1 and others so it isn't as maneuverable on its own in an atmosphere. Most VFs that see actual combat do so outside of a planetary atmosphere, where that isn't really an issue and the greater internal capacity is an asset.

That's why the VF-4 was a superb space fighter despite its indifferent atmospheric performance, and why the VF-14's loss in Project Nova didn't stop it from being widely adopted throughout the emigrant governments.

The carryover design cues from the SV-51 in General Galaxy's early works are no doubt the handiwork of its cofounder Alexei Kurakin, who worked on the SV-51 and was around at least long enough to have a significant hand in the design phase of the VF-9. I think some of that may be that Kurakin founded the SV Works to design new VFs around the idea that VF vs VF combat was inevitable, and that the SV-51 was arguably the first VF ever designed to fight over VFs and not just aliens. In some cases, particularly the "conehead" design, I think that's just an aerodynamic convenience that comes from not being overly attached to the idea of the VF-1's basic transformation.

And do you see a segmenting of the market, with Shinsei captured most of the mass-production market, while General Galaxy made high-performance VF for special forces and the like? It feels to me like that is the kind of production orientation they could push after the Vajra War.

Not as such.

Shinsei Industry has a dominant position in VF development for the New UN Forces in no small part because the three companies that merged to found it were the only act in town once the Zentradi finished. The Zentradi destroyed all the others, including the developers of the rival VF-X-3 that was tipped to win the 2nd Generation fighter competition at the prototype phase. With them gone, and the parties behind the SV-51 having effectively changed hands, they emerged in the aftermath of the First Space War in a dominant position in the market. They seem to have remained the favorite of the New UN Forces because their designs are more conservative.

General Galaxy emerged a few years after Shinsei Industry did, as a merger of surviving parts of OTEC and the various Destroid manufacturers. They were, and in large still are, a shipbuilding and advanced technology research outfit that moonlights in Variable Fighter design. General Galaxy broke into the VF market with the VF-9, a radical new VF design concept that was aimed at the rapidly emerging niche market of newly settled emigrant planets looking to update and supplement their defenses with a low-cost all-regime or atmospheric VF. They needed something that was cheap and easy to maintain that offered good cost performance, and the VF-9 was a bestseller in that regard. General Galaxy did not seriously attempt to compete with Shinsei until the 3rd Generation design competition, where they presented their own design that became the VF-14. It was a radical concept compared to the very traditional VF-11, but the very same virtues that made the VF-4 such a success were amplified in it and space-focused emigrant defense forces bought the VF-14 over the VF-11 despite the VF-11 being the next main fighter chosen by the central New UN Forces. Yet another success with a wild, unconventional design seems to have cemented the company's envelope-pushing identity in the realm of VF design. It's kind of ironic that their biggest commercial success was their least radical design: the VF-171 Nightmare Plus.

If I were to boil it down to one particular point, I'd say Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy's design philosophy differs in their attitude towards specialization. Shinsei Industry believes in a jack-of-all-trades approach: that it's better to be just pretty good at a lot of things than exceptional at one or two things and only so-so at others. They build to that "one VF fits all" sort of ethos with the idea that you can use things like FAST Packs and modular equipment to switch out roles while having one common airframe. General Galaxy, on the other hand, seems to believe it's better to have a couple of different VFs that all do one job or one particular set of jobs exceptionally well and cover each other's weak points.

What we're seeing c.2059 and beyond is Shinsei Industry reasserting its position as the dominant player in the design and manufacture of VFs after General Galaxy stole their thunder by successfully submitting the VF-171 as a 4th Gen main VF candidate after the New UN Forces and New UN Government decided to pass on the Super Nova VFs. Most of the galaxy is currently using the General Galaxy-made VF-171 and/or General Galaxy-made Ghosts. The Shinsei-based 5th Gen VFs are tipping the balance back in the other direction since General Galaxy seems to have let Shinsei get the better of them with the YF-24 Evolution. With Macross Galaxy's VF-27 probably not being widely sold due to the need for its pilot to be an illegally-enhanced cyborg, it almost looks like they're not really participating in the 5th Generation unless you count subunits of them like the SV Works marketing to third parties.

And about the Macross Frontier concert, I thought that it should had been a Walkure one because of the upcoming movie. Are they making this concert for the 10th anniversary of the Frontier movies?

Walkure's had plenty, and their movie's still not quite "coming soon". Frontier continues to be a strong seller, so it isn't surprising they're having a commemorative concert next year for the anniversary.

[False Prophet]

The fact that the SV-51 and its descendants were so good at dogfighting VF as you reminded me suddenly feels like an omen -- are we back to fighting humans in the upcoming Delta movie? We recently have a discussion about if Windermere had any fight left in them, an idea which you shot down, so wouldn't it be logical if the next nemesis is some kind of human faction?

Also, if General Galaxy wasn't that interested in participating in the 5th generation, do you expect that the next VF would be more simplistic than VF-27, or will it up the ante? They already know that it's hopeless to make a big profit from the VF-27 anyway. Or, maybe this is their real entry into the mass-production market.

Speaking of which, do we have any idea how much VF-24 and VF-25 are in the galaxy at this moment? How many local NUNS and unaffiliated forces use them? We know about the export restriction of the VF-24, but how many VF-25 has they managed to sell?

If General Galaxy's theme is specialization, then what does the YF-21 excel at beside being a really high-performance unit? Or, both the VF-22 and VF-27 are meant for highly special pilots, while the VF-171 is for everyone. It feels to me like General Galaxy wants to do specialized development like you said, but they never win a bid big enough to supply any military with an array of different machines that cover the entire spectrum of operation. So they just pushed and pushed performance until they did not.

I am interested in what kind of ships does General Galaxy built, beside everything Macross Galaxy had?

[Seto Kaiba]

The fact that the SV-51 and its descendants were so good at dogfighting VF as you reminded me suddenly feels like an omen -- are we back to fighting humans in the upcoming Delta movie? We recently have a discussion about if Windermere had any fight left in them, an idea which you shot down, so wouldn't it be logical if the next nemesis is some kind of human faction?

Eh... it could be. Personally, my hopes are not high for the quality of the storytelling in the next Delta movie given how utterly phoned-in everything except the design works was in Delta.

The New UN Government does still occasionally have to deal with internecine warfare between emigrant planets and fleets over matters of politics, economy, and so on. Normally they take a hands-off approach until things go out of control and someone needs to step in to restore order. There are also still various anti-government groups around, including both Zentradi rebels and the remnants of Latence who didn't pack it in peacefully after a coup attempt failed.

Also, if General Galaxy wasn't that interested in participating in the 5th generation, do you expect that the next VF would be more simplistic than VF-27, or will it up the ante? They already know that it's hopeless to make a big profit from the VF-27 anyway. Or, maybe this is their real entry into the mass-production market.

I'd say that depends on how you'd like to define "simplistic".

When all is said and done, the VF-27 isn't significantly more complex than the VF-25. Its only real advancements are in the adoption of the Brain Direct Interface (via cybernetics) as a primary control system and operating that heavy quantum beam gunpod with the surplus output from the two extra engines.

General Galaxy seems to have already lost out on the 5th Generation, since Shinsei Industry's VF-24 was already adopted as the next main fighter of Earth's New UN Forces and the central New UN Forces, and practically all of the subsequent 5th Generation developments are derivatives of Shinsei's design often by its regional branches in whatever emigrant government's territory like the VF-25, YF-26, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31.

Since cyber-grunts are illegal, I'd expect a mass market General Galaxy 5th Gen VF to omit the BDI in favor of an ordinary EX-Gear cockpit.

Speaking of which, do we have any idea how much VF-24 and VF-25 are in the galaxy at this moment? How many local NUNS and unaffiliated forces use them? We know about the export restriction of the VF-24, but how many VF-25 has they managed to sell?

We don't have a very clear picture. Earth and the central/federal New UN Forces have the full spec VF-24, and an unknown number of other governments have various VF-24 monkey models with their own local improvements and enhancements. It's a similar deal with the VF-25, which is known to be tipped to be Macross Frontier's 5th Gen VF but has also apparently been planned for adoption in a number of other places (in their own regional specs) on at least a few other fleets and planets like Macross Olympia, Sephira, Sewell, the Macross-7 fleet, and so on. There must be some undecided markets yet, because the Brisingr Alliance developed the VF-31 with the stated intention of exporting it as a competing 5th Generation design.

If General Galaxy's theme is specialization, then what does the YF-21 excel at beside being a really high-performance unit?

The YF-21 excelled at two things specifically... it was a stealth fighter/bomber for precision strikes on enemy HQs and it was a highly effective dogfighter. Its versatility was a bit lower than the VF-19's, since the VF-19 could use underwing pylons for mission-specific ordnance and optional bolt-on containers for other mission equipment. The VF-22's armaments were fully internal to optimize its passive stealthiness and were mainly oriented around short-ranged combat.

It feels to me like General Galaxy wants to do specialized development like you said, but they never win a bid big enough to supply any military with an array of different machines that cover the entire spectrum of operation. So they just pushed and pushed performance until they did not.

They've won a few fairly substantial bids... they did a roaring trade with the VF-9 Cutlass as a supplement to the VF-4 Lightning III, despite directly competing with multiple Shinsei projects like the VF-5000 and VF-5. The VF-14 was preferred by a number of emigrant planets and fleets over the VF-11, including the Macross-5 fleet and the Varauta colony. Most governments operating 4th Generation VFs are using General Galaxy properties including a number of different variations of the VF-171 supplemented by Ghosts.

I am interested in what kind of ships does General Galaxy built, beside everything Macross Galaxy had?

Almost every ship has at least some systems manufactured by General Galaxy or one of its operating units. The one modern ship we know of that was definitely NOT developed by them was the Macross Quarter-class.

[False Prophet]

Speaking of how ubiquitous Shinsei and General Galaxy are in the VF business, do you think that any other companies could successfully broke into the market to a noticeable degree? Because as I see it, we've pretty much hit the technological ceiling with 5th generation, there are at lease one model for each price category, and what kind of designs a wet-behind-the-ear design firm could come up with that doesn't violate Shinsei's and General Galaxy's patterns? I have some serious doubt about whether the VF-31A Kairos could be a success export product.

(That said, how well-known in-universe are the events of Macross 30, or just the YF-30? What would Surya and LAI say when people ask about the origin of the VF-31?)

[Seto Kaiba]

Speaking of how ubiquitous Shinsei and General Galaxy are in the VF business, do you think that any other companies could successfully broke into the market to a noticeable degree?

Probably not with the current state of the market... at least, not to the extent of actually supplying the military to a significant degree. Macross tends to mirror the state of the real world in a lot of ways, especially with the 5th Generation VFs mirroring the 5th Generation fighters of the real world. (Esp. the VF-31, which is basically Japan's ATD-X program all over again.)

Because as I see it, we've pretty much hit the technological ceiling with 5th generation, [...]

No such thing. There will always be some new technological advancement that changes the tactical picture in ways that force the development of new solutions. We've seen this happen in the past with the introduction of radar and jet engines, and more recently with the advent of passive stealth.

(One thing we could potentially see that's implied by Delta is a next-generation VF that's designed with a fold wave system as a standard feature.)

[...] there are at lease one model for each price category, and what kind of designs a wet-behind-the-ear design firm could come up with that doesn't violate Shinsei's and General Galaxy's patterns? I have some serious doubt about whether the VF-31A Kairos could be a success export product.

We've seen that independent or semi-independent design labs can come up with some pretty radical stuff like the Sv-262, so I'm fairly confident that there's room for new players to come up with radical new solutions.

The long-term viability of Brisingr's plan to export their VF-31 Kairos is definitely a big question mark, since they're at least a decade behind the leaders in 5th Generation VF development at this point and their next-gen VF is still 2 to 3 years away from entering production. (They may end up in a similar situation to the Mitsubishi ATD-X, Japan's planned next-gen fighter, where they have a design but even their own government is hesitant to actually but it in the face of competing designs from outside the area.)

(That said, how well-known in-universe are the events of Macross 30, or just the YF-30? What would Surya and LAI say when people ask about the origin of the VF-31?)

Odds are the incident involving a New UN Spacy VF-X Special Forces team going rogue and trying to rewrite history was classified... so odds are Surya Aerospace probably hasn't said much more than that they licensed the YF-30's design to economize.

[False Prophet]

Do you think that anyone would try to do anything to squeeze out a few more years of service from the VF-171 by upgrading it? Is there anything we can do to this platform? Or is the VF-25 is too much of a cost-effective offering to pass by?

And what is the chance of one of the "missing numbers" VF actually appear in animation?

[Seto Kaiba]

Do you think that anyone would try to do anything to squeeze out a few more years of service from the VF-171 by upgrading it? Is there anything we can do to this platform?

Even without upgrades, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is likely to remain in frontline service for at another decade or more in many emigrant government defense forces. Those governments will need to decide what they want to do about updating their forces. Some will opt to hang onto the VF-171 as long as possible, either because they've got weak economies or simply because "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Some will bail out of manned VFs altogether and opt for an all-Ghost force (some already did in the 2040s). The ones that opt to upgrade will need time to decide on what 5th Generation VF meets their needs (if any), to conduct their own operational evaluation, and then get production started and begin the long and arduous process of phasing in new VFs and phasing out old ones. That alone will give the VF-171 another ten years easy. The Macross Frontier fleet in 2058 was STILL in the process of decommissioning and disposing of its VF-11s.

As to keeping them going with upgrades, that's more or less inevitable. The standard VF-171 in 2059 was Block II, and the Frontier fleet in the movies introduced an improvement called Block III(F) to improve the fighter's overall survivability against the Vajra. We've seen in Macross E that the VF-171EX has been produced (without the MDE weapons) in places other than the Macross Frontier fleet that developed it, so that's one option there. Xaos was using VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX's as their standard fighter on Pipure in 2062. Odds are there are numerous other locales where the VF-171s were updated to Block III or the EX specification to extend their service lives for years to come.

The one upgrade we know can't be applied to the VF-171 is the Inertia Store Converter. So that's going to limit its lifespan a bit in the long run.

Or is the VF-25 is too much of a cost-effective offering to pass by?

The VF-25 is likely a middle-of-the-road 5th Generation VF, budget-wise... if for no other reason than that it has so damned many specialist variants.

Surya Aerospace's VF-31 is likely the most cost-effective of the lot, given that its modular ordnance container can facilitate having just one variant in service that switches roles with modular parts. Unfortunately, it's also likely on the low end of technical advancement in other areas since it was made mostly with off-the-shelf parts.

And what is the chance of one of the "missing numbers" VF actually appear in animation?

Seems unlikely, IMO.

[False Prophet]

You know, I've been wondering why haven't anyone made a 5th generation compact VF that positions itself as the successor of the VF-171? Is there anything restrictive to size when it comes to stuffs like the Fold Wave system?

Also, what kind of immigrant feet that would choose an all-Ghost defense force? Since the development of AI is obstructed by laws, it should be a fleet least expected to go into war, correct?

I wonder how complex the Durandal's flight control system has to be to allow Alto to pilot a machine with four nuclear engines at the same time?

And is Kawamori determined to make the VF-24 a machine we always know but never see?

[Seto Kaiba]

You know, I've been wondering why haven't anyone made a 5th generation compact VF that positions itself as the successor of the VF-171? Is there anything restrictive to size when it comes to stuffs like the Fold Wave system?

The VF-171 isn't a small VF by any means... it's comparable in size to the VF-17, albeit more slender.

We're not told precisely what is required for an airframe to be compatible with the inertia store converter, but the tech manuals suggest the system is located in the nose behind the radar which may make it a size concern for the shorter nose of the VF-171.

Also, what kind of immigrant feet that would choose an all-Ghost defense force? Since the development of AI is obstructed by laws, it should be a fleet least expected to go into war, correct?

A cost-conscious one, for starters... the AIF-7/QF-4000 Ghost costs about 1/3 what the comparatively cheap-for-a-4th-Gen-VF does, and because there is no pilot aboard it reduces the potential loss of life on the operator's side in combat. An all-Ghost air force is very cost-effective because the lower complexity means cheaper maintenance of a large fleet of aircraft and the lower initial cost means you can field more of them for the same amount of money with less risk of having to pay survivors pensions and so on.

Development of fully-autonomous combat AI is restricted, but the Ghosts in question are semi-autonomous only... so there's little obstacle to using them in war.

I wonder how complex the Durandal's flight control system has to be to allow Alto to pilot a machine with four nuclear engines at the same time?

It's using a modified version of the same ARIEL II integrated airframe management and control AI that's used by the VF-25 and YF-30... so presumably the increase in complexity was not THAT severe.

And is Kawamori determined to make the VF-24 a machine we always know but never see?

It wouldn't be the first time... like what happened to the VF-X-3, VF-5 thru 8, etc.

We only saw the VF-14 animated in a video game and in a brief extra feature that came with the home video release of Macross 7.

[False Prophet]

Say, how hard is it exactly to train anyone to control a VF and the ghost fighters at the same time? If I remember correctly, Frontier did mentioned somewhere that Luca was a special case even among SMS pilots

And between the AIF-9 and AIF-7, which one would immigration fleets choose? Also, after the Human-Zentrandi war, was the QF-3000 used in any notable number?

[Seto Kaiba]

Say, how hard is it exactly to train anyone to control a VF and the ghost fighters at the same time?

Presumably not that difficult, as the Frontier NUNS were already using RVF-171s as motherships to control Ghosts in the field well before the RVF-25 and Luca came along.

If I remember correctly, Frontier did mentioned somewhere that Luca was a special case even among SMS pilots [...]

He is, yeah.

Luca Angeloni was permitted to join SMS and Skull Platoon by special permission despite being underage because of his connections. The Angeloni family are cofounders of Legodt & Angeloni Industries (LAI), one of the codevelopers that worked with Shinsei Industry to develop the VF-25. He was kind of their man on the inside during SMS's testing the VF-25 in battlefield conditions. (If his remarks to Leon are any indication, it was at least partly because LAI did not entirely trust Richard Bilra, and believed he was chasing a monopoly on fold quartz-based fold technologies.)

And between the AIF-9 and AIF-7, which one would immigration fleets choose? Also, after the Human-Zentrandi war, was the QF-3000 used in any notable number?

The AIF-7 Ghost is the standard model that's used in most of the galaxy.

Earth had an AIF-9B Ghost c.2051 that was apparently a direct derivative of the Ghost X-9, though it's unknown how that model is related to Macross Galaxy's independently developed AIF-9V Ghost that contained restricted technologies.

And yes, the QF-3000 Ghost continued to be used after the First Space War. Some non-official setting materials like Master File suggest an upgraded version was rolled out a few years after the war designated QF-3100, which remained the standard until the AIF-7/QF-4000 in the 2040s.

[False Prophet]

That reminds me, how did the Ghost has two designations: AIF-7 and QF-4000? The only case in real life when that happened is the jointly-developed Chinese/Pakistani Thunder. And speaking of the X-9, if we just talk about raw numbers, how good are its stats to the YF-19 and YF-21?

Also, anyone here know what has Miyatake up to lately?

[Seto Kaiba]

That reminds me, how did the Ghost has two designations: AIF-7 and QF-4000? The only case in real life when that happened is the jointly-developed Chinese/Pakistani Thunder.

Macross's creators have not commented on that as it relates to the Ghost series directly.

Sometimes, when the military appropriates a pre-existing aircraft or an aircraft that's used by another branch of service the same aircraft can end up having multiple designations. In this case, it feels more like one is meant to be the actual military designation and another is an informal designation given to it by the manufacturer. Like how the prototype for the next-generation Ghost was referred to just as "X-9".

That said, I feel like the Macross Frontier TV series got the designations backwards. The military-use Ghosts have always been QF aircraft, and even went back to QF in the movies with the QF-5100 Goblin II, while the AIF- designations were used for experimental aircraft like the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus or the AIF-X-8S in the Frontier drama CD stories.

And speaking of the X-9, if we just talk about raw numbers, how good are its stats to the YF-19 and YF-21?

Because the AIF-X-9 Ghost was unmanned and didn't have to transform, it was about 3t lighter than either of the rival 4th Generation VF prototypes and as a result had a thrust-to-weight ratio that was about 35-40% higher. It armament isn't all that heavy, being just a handful of beam guns and an internal bay for high-maneuverability missiles. Its key advantage is in its ultrafast reaction speed due to its autonomous combat AI and its ability to fully exert its performance without the handicap of a human body's g-force limits.

Also, anyone here know what has Miyatake up to lately?

Can't say I've heard anything.