The Macross Valkyrie Thread

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been wanting to ask this for some time now...

How powerful is the Metal Siren from Macross II?

It seemed quite powerful. Especially having a extra transformation Gundroid mode. It kicked a lot of ass in the anime too.

By the standards of Macross II: Lovers Again's take on the Macross universe... quite powerful. The way it's presented, much like the YF-29 in the main Macross setting, it's as close as Macross will ever get to having a super-prototype like a Gundam running amok.

We're not given any data on its engine performance except that it exceeds the performance of the VF-2SS Valkyrie II, and its armament is a fair bit heavier. It's boasting two heavy railguns, four particle beam cannons, sixty-four micro-missiles, a charged combat blade, and that unspecified wave attack it uses to destroy an entire 4km-class command battleship on its lonesome. Its main asset seems to be its speed and agility, however, rather than raw firepower, as it's shown making an absolute mockery of the Mardook's top of the line mecha, some of which are said to also have performance rivaling or exceeding the VF-2SS's.

(In perspective, the VF-2SS's overall level of flight performance is somewhere in the general vicinity of the VF-11's... but with far heavier weaponry.)

[yazi88]

Awesome. Thanks for the info!

[hitokirigarou]

Where are the missile launchers located in the AIF-7S Ghost from Frontier?

Taken from the Macross Compendium site:
two built-in micro-missile launchers
two multi-purpose missile launchers

I also noticed that the AIF-9V has 8 obvious beam guns. The AIF-7S is stated to have only two yet it has the same gun placement as the AIF-9V. Are those dummy guns?

[Seto Kaiba]

Where are the missile launchers located in the AIF-7S Ghost from Frontier?

According to its Mechanic Sheet in Macross Chronicle (revised ed.), the AIF-7S Ghost's micro-missile launchers are located in the aircraft's nose. The panel lines on the nose pretty much give the game away. There's a (covered) launcher port directly beneath the "N.U.N. SPACY" marking on the nose.

The multipurpose missile launchers, like those of the Ghost X-9, are on either side of the centerline just behind the blisters containing the particle beam cannons.

I also noticed that the AIF-9V has 8 obvious beam guns. The AIF-7S is stated to have only two yet it has the same gun placement as the AIF-9V. Are those dummy guns?

Official materials are surprisingly mute on the subject. We can make an educated guess, however.

The AIF-7 Ghost is noted to be an aircraft favored for its exceptional cost performance more than anything. The X-9 Ghost prototype was outfitted with five laser cannons in three gun blisters in its nose similar to those on the various Ghosts seen in Macross Frontier. It seems highly probable that those gun blisters on the AIF-7 series Ghost had originally housed laser cannons similar to the X-9's, and that they were either a never-fitted option or were dropped because the pair of particle beam cannons were deemed adequate to the fighter's needs by the Frontier Gov't. The standard issue hardware of the New UN Forces in the Frontier fleet is all based around cost performance. The VF-171 is noted as having excellent cost performance because of its easy handling and its high airframe versatility. The AIF-7S Ghost is noted to be even better in that regard, costing 1/3 what the VF-171 does. It would not be at all surprising if the omission of those guns was a cost-saving maneuver.

Macross Galaxy's unlawfully upgraded AIF-9V "Ghost V-9" does make use of those gun blisters. Instead of lasers, they fitted them out with six 25mm particle beam guns and slightly scaled-back the ventral gun mounts to house a 20mm particle beam gun each, then added the 55mm beam gun derived from the VF-27's heavy quantum beam gunpod on the nose for a total of nine guns while also doubling the number of micro-missile launchers. They then went farther still by fitting them with illegal fully autonomous combat AIs and programming them to carry out kamikaze attacks if fatally compromised or in danger of running out of fuel or ammunition.

[hitokirigarou]

The multipurpose missile launchers, like those of the Ghost X-9, are on either side of the centerline just behind the blisters containing the particle beam cannons.

I'm assuming the two booster pods mounted on top?

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm assuming the two booster pods mounted on top?

The front portion of them, anyway... it's a feature they share with the AIF-9V.

One feature most* production models derived from the X-9 Ghost prototype seem to have omitted is the modular ordnance bay on the underside of the aircraft. The X-9 had no internal micro-missile launchers, so it depended on the payload in that bay (29 high-maneuver missiles) and the launchers in its Super Pack to supplement its five built-in laser cannons. The modern Ghosts derived from it have a more balanced armament.

Spoiler

* Excluding the AIF-9B Ghost used by the Earth New UN Forces c.2051, which appears to be a mass production version of the X-9 without the problematic - and illegal - fully autonomous air combat AI system.

[hitokirigarou]

the AIF-9B Ghost used by the Earth New UN Forces c.2051, which appears to be a mass production version of the X-9

So the AIF-9B has exact same weapons as the X-9?

Do the booster pods of the X-9, 7S, and 9V have missile launcher ports or does the front part of each pod open up on a hinge?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the AIF-9B has exact same weapons as the X-9?

Full specs for the AIF-9B Ghost were never published, but outwardly it appears to be unmodified from the X-9 Ghost spec seen in Macross Plus.

Do the booster pods of the X-9, 7S, and 9V have missile launcher ports or does the front part of each pod open up on a hinge?

They're never shown opening, though as it's a modular weapons container the answer is probably "yes" and "yes" but depending on configuration.

[hitokirigarou]

Thanks for all the replies, Seto Kaiba!

[False Prophet]

Say, after the VF-4, how many years does a VF model usually serve in the NUNS before it is replaced? I suddenly have the thought there is pretty much no reason for any big budget VF project by the time of Delta. I mean, the whole spectrum of cost-to-performance has been filled by then. If you want something cheap, there is the VF-171, QF-4000 and VF-31. If you want something powerful, there is the YF-27. And if you want something in the middle, there is the VF-25. Feels like if you want to add a new VF, the story after Delta will have to be set several years in the future.

Of course, there is always the possibility of another immigration fleet just take whatever data of the YF-24 and develop their own takes on it. Or the corporation cabal still have something even better than the YF-27 cooking in the pot...

Anayway, when did the practice of exporting monkey models to the colonies and fleets began? Or rather, how far does Earth's direct political and military sphere of influence extend to? I suppose that it happened sometime between the VF-4 and VF-11, right?

[yazi88]

VF-31 is not cheap. It uses cheaper parts compared to the prototype YF-30, but its performance and cost is still pretty high. Only the big corporations can afford it in Delta, similar to how SMS could afford the VF-25 and YF-29 in the Frontier fleet. Same with the YF-27 with the Galaxy Fleet. Non of the actual NUNS local fleets can afford such expensive machines.

[Seto Kaiba]

Say, after the VF-4, how many years does a VF model usually serve in the NUNS before it is replaced?

It varies, but for a Main Variable Fighter the average life expectancy seems to be around 30 years.

Their actual tenures as Main Variable Fighter can be shorter depending on need or the pace of the advancements being made in technology, but in terms of the time between when they're introduced and when they're retired by the New UN Forces and either scrapped or sold off is about 30 years. (As evidenced by the VF-11, which entered service c.2028 and was in the process of being retired by the New UN Forces c.2058.)

I suddenly have the thought there is pretty much no reason for any big budget VF project by the time of Delta. I mean, the whole spectrum of cost-to-performance has been filled by then. If you want something cheap, there is the VF-171, QF-4000 and VF-31. If you want something powerful, there is the YF-27. And if you want something in the middle, there is the VF-25. Feels like if you want to add a new VF, the story after Delta will have to be set several years in the future.

So... the VF-171's not really in the current picture, as such. By 2067, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is a twenty year old previous (4th) generation design that is nearing the end of its useful service life. The VF-171 was itself a late introduction into its generation, with the actual 4th Generation's operational requirements being thirty years old by 2067.

Performance-wise, the 5th Generation VFs that started from the YF-24 Evolution outclass the VF-171 by quite the large margin. That excessive level of performance was deemed necessary to combat the Vajra, which is why the 5th Generation VF requirements were drawn up the way they were, but now that 5th Generation VFs have begun entering military service it's only a matter of time before most New UN Government member states upgrade with an eye towards maintaining parity of arms with their neighbors.

While many New UN Government member states doubtless purchased licenses to locally build 5th Generation VFs that were developed elsewhere like the VF-24 or VF-25, there are reasons beyond performance and the strategic picture that can make developing their own VF locally advantageous. Macross likes to mirror developments in the real world, and the backstory of the Brisingr Alliance's decision to develop their own 5th Generation VF (in the form of the VF-31) broadly mirrors modern Japan's own 5th Generation fighter program. While they could've simply continued build-under-license agreements to produce fighters developed by their close allies, they opted for developing their own next-generation fighter as a form of economic stimulus. The goal was to stimulate the flagging economy of the Brisingr globular cluster by doing all the development and manufacture locally, creating jobs and so on, and to develop this new VF with an eye towards exporting it to other governments themselves to bring money in from outside their territory. While it not explicitly stated, it's a very safe bet the Frontier fleet's VF-25 program had similar motives, though that government was much more economically prosperous.

There's no real "high end" option available. The VF-27's specs were never disclosed to the New UN Government's agencies as required by law, so the VF-27 is still considered to be the YF-27. It's also basically illegal to operate them, since cyborg soldiers are illegal under New UN Government law and the VF-27's ISC can't keep up with the fighter's performance so a cyborg is basically a requirement to operate the aircraft safely. The VF-25, VF-31, and monkey model VF-24 are presumably all hovering around the same basic level of capability, while the YF-29 and YF-30 are simply too expensive to even consider mass production.

Anayway, when did the practice of exporting monkey models to the colonies and fleets began?

After the so-called "Sharon Apple Incident" depicted in Macross Plus.

When the YF-19 and YF-21 unintentionally demonstrated the ability to independently break through Earth's orbital defenses, compromising the most secure planet in the New UN Government, the New UN Government and New UN Forces joint staff became somewhat anxious about the prospect of such craft ending up in the hands of rebellious emigrant governments or terrorist organizations. Conflicts with both had been on the rise in the 2040s, leading to crackdowns as Earth attempted to centralize more governing authority on itself under the influence of an Earth-supremacist faction in the government and military called Latence.

Or rather, how far does Earth's direct political and military sphere of influence extend to?

Prior to 2051, Earth exerted a lot of direct control over emigrant governments and was trying to tighten its grip on many of them in the name of defense.

After Latence was ousted following the so-called Second Unification War and their attempted coup via hijacking of Earth's defense force flagship Macross-13, government reforms reduced Earth's direct authority over emigrant governments and granted individual New UN Government members more governing autonomy. The reforms made a number of changes to the New UN Forces as well, granting local governments more control over their own defenses and imposing new oversight over the central New UN Forces to prevent abuses of authority.

Earth is still more or less the "first among equals" in the New UN Government since it's home to the New UN Gov't general assembly and has the most manufacturing and technological muscle of any member state by a truly huge margin and provides arms to the central New UN Forces. Its authority is still much-diminished in the 2050s and 2060s compared to before, when Earth exerted a lot more direct control.

VF-31 is not cheap. It uses cheaper parts compared to the prototype YF-30, but its performance and cost is still pretty high. Only the big corporations can afford it in Delta, similar to how SMS could afford the VF-25 and YF-29 in the Frontier fleet. Same with the YF-27 with the Galaxy Fleet. Non of the actual NUNS local fleets can afford such expensive machines.

Sort of? None of the 5th Generation VFs are cheap, but the VF-31 is actually intended to be more economical than many of the alternatives. The Brisingr Alliance's main goal with it, apart from stimulating its own economy directly via job creation, was to make money selling it in export to governments that were presumably not interested in the VF-24's export variants or VF-25.

That said, it's not correct to say that only big corporations can afford them. The reason we see PMCs using them in combat before we see the New UN Forces operating them is actually way more awful (and explained directly in the early episodes of Macross Frontier).

SMS and Xaos were contracted to carry out operational evaluation testing on the next-generation VFs for the local New UN Forces they were developed for. The reason? As civilian contractors, there's less red tape involved to get them mobilized. More importantly, if they are somehow killed in the process of testing as a result of some defect in the aircraft or they die in combat their death is legally considered to be an accident. If a PMC pilot snuffs it, it means less red tape in the form of procedural inquiries, no lawsuits for wrongful death, and their next of kin don't receive any posthumous military benefits. Legally speaking, SMS and Xaos are expendable redshirts for their local New UN Government member states. They don't even own the fighters they're flying... those are on loan to them from the local New UN Forces specifically for the testing they've been contracted to do. It's doubtful that even a megacorp could afford to field large numbers of a state of the art VF.

In both cases, the 5th Gen VF in question is noted to be on track for adoption by the local New UN Forces within a few years. The VF-25 is noted to have already begun phasing into service with the New UN Forces in the Frontier fleet and elsewhere in 2061, and it's noted the VF-31 is set to enter New UN Forces service in the Brisinger cluster in either 2069 or 2070.

[yazi88]

Ah fair point. I forgot that PMCs are their own thing. I got them mixed up corporations as some of them are owned by corporations, in the case of Delta that is. And yeah, its a good point about these being test models that are not even owned by SMS and Xaos fleets because they are test dummies for NUNS long before the local NUNS forces even get these.

Although it should be mentioned that like Macross 7, special forces units tend to have the more expensive units too. Local NUNS special forces, and especially the Federal ones. In Macross 30, Havamal, the antagonist group, is a NUNS Federal Special forces unit, and they operate a lot of the high end models, even a rare YF-29.

[Arsarcana]

That brings up a question I've had and I imagine it's been answered somewhere: Has it been stated which version of the VF-31 it is that's being planned for mass-production, the Kairos, the Siegfried or both?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah fair point. I forgot that PMCs are their own thing. I got them mixed up corporations as some of them are owned by corporations, in the case of Delta that is

Yup. The PMCs we've seen in Macross have all been subsidiaries or operating divisions of larger corporations... but usually founded initially to protect the corporation's own interests as a dedicated security division before they'd branched out into providing private security services to governments.

Strategic Military Services (SMS) is a wholly owned subsidiary of major interstellar shipping firm Bilra Transport.

Xaos's PMC is an operating division of the interstellar conglomerate Xaos, which started as a communications firm.

And yeah, its a good point about these being test models that are not even owned by SMS and Xaos fleets because they are test dummies for NUNS long before the local NUNS forces even get these.

Fun fact... in the Macross Frontier TV series, SMS doesn't own the Macross Quarter either. It's also a test article on loan to SMS for operational evaluation. That's why SMS referred to their unsanctioned departure from the fleet as an act of piracy... they literally stole a state of the art prototype warship from the Frontier Government.

Although it should be mentioned that like Macross 7, special forces units tend to have the more expensive units too. Local NUNS special forces, and especially the Federal ones. In Macross 30, Havamal, the antagonist group, is a NUNS Federal Special forces unit, and they operate a lot of the high end models, even a rare YF-29.

Yup... though the local Special Forces are meant to operate in concert with the local New UN Forces. The central Special Forces, like the Independent Squadrons of the Spacy's VF-X Special Forces, are often elite troubleshooters that are considered stand-alone forces bordering on Char Aznable-esque One Man Army territory.

Macross 30's Havamal, like Macross VF-X2's Ravens, is a VF-X Special Forces unit. The elite of the elite, though even they were only able to afford to produce a very small number of YF-29s due to having thrown their weight around with the local government on Uroboros and how stupidly rich Uroboros was in fold quartz.

[Seto Kaiba]

That brings up a question I've had and I imagine it's been answered somewhere: Has it been stated which version of the VF-31 it is that's being considered for mass-production, the Kairos, the Siegfried or both?

The VF-31A/B Kairos is the planned mass production model intended for widespread adoption by the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces.

The VF-31 Siegfried type is an extraordinarily expensive aftermarket customization of some the trial production VF-31A's on loan to Xaos for testing, using detuned versions of technologies developed for the YF-29 and YF-30. It's way too expensive to mass produce, because of how much fold quartz is needed to make a working fold wave system.


Curiously, the new Xaos custom model in the second movie seems to have gone for less extreme modifications and is being called the VF-31AX "Kairos Plus".

[False Prophet]

Has it mentioned anywhere how the gunpods are reloaded? I heard that for real life gunpods you usually have to use some kind of device to reload them; and, I imagine the helical magazine of something like the GU-11 would not make things easier.

[Seto Kaiba]

Has it mentioned anywhere how the gunpods are reloaded? I heard that for real life gunpods you usually have to use some kind of device to reload them; and, I imagine the helical magazine of something like the GU-11 would not make things easier.

It's actually no more difficult than reloading any other rotary cannon's ammo drum... since most high capacity ammo drums meant for that kind of rotary cannon are by nature helical in topology.

They just connect a loader carriage up to the ammo feed and run the feed in reverse to cycle the rounds into the magazine. There a shot during the testing montage in Macross Plus's second episode that shows a reloading operation underway.

[yazi88]

Did the VF-4 Lightning III have a Super/fast pack option?

It seems to be the case for all the mainline production Valkyrie units. VF-1, VF-5000, VF-11, VF-171.

[Seto Kaiba]

Did the VF-4 Lightning III have a Super/fast pack option?

So, the answer to that kind of depends on which timeline you're talking about.

The version of the VF-4 in the Macross II timeline - the VF-4 Siren - did have a Super Pack configuration but it was only a pair of dorsally-mounted weapons containers that held funnels among other things. Its only appearance was in Macross: Eternal Love Song, Macross's second-ever canon video game and a tie-in for Macross II: Lovers Again.

The ongoing Macross timeline's VF-4 - the VF-4 Lightning III - doesn't have a Super Pack configuration in canon materials.

In both cases, the VF-4 was kind of designed not to need a Super Pack.

The reason the original VF-1 Valkyrie needed its FAST Packs was because the design requirements that mandated a Battroid mode as close as possible to the projected size of the recovered alien derelict's crew. An unintended and problematic consequence of that requirement was that the VF-1 was left with relatively little space for internally-carried fuel. Its tanks could hold enough fuel slush for hundreds of hours of atmospheric service, but in space the exponentially-greater fuel consumption created by the need to use plasma as propellant meant that the VF-1 only carried enough fuel for around ten minutes of running its engines at maximum thrust. The FAST Pack concept was introduced to work around the problem by adding high-capacity conformal fuel tanks which more than quadrupled the fighter's fuel supply and a pair of high-powered hybrid rocket boosters that could be used to reduce the thrust production burden on the main engines.

When Stonewell and Bellcom developed the VF-4 during, and after, the First Space War they took several steps to make the next generation VF design a more capable space fighter. The enlarged airframe and substantially larger main wing allowed for significantly greater internal fuel storage. The thermonuclear reaction turbine engines got supplemented with a pair of thermonuclear ramjet engines for high-altitude atmospheric flight to improve its top speed and fuel efficiency, and for space use its turbines were supplemented with a pair of internal rocket engines similar to those of the VF-1's Super Pack. It was basically meant to be a VF-1 replacement with the Super Packs built right into the airframe.