I-Fields and Beam Sabers

[Xenosynth]

I had a few random curious questions come into my head while playing more Gihren's Greed, mostly when it comes to i-fields.

Now, as seen the the animation, i-fields seem to cause a beam to 'bend' around it, I was wondering though, what makes beam sabers seem to be immune to these effects? Like... I believe I remember that beam weapons use a miniaturized i-field in order to contain the beam, do the i-fields just pass through one another? I was thinking maybe the i-fields sort of 'merge', but then if that were the case, the parts of the beam saber that pass through the point of contact, wouldn't it cause the saber to 'leak'?

This also makes me curious about beam sabers themselves. If they are indeed contained by an i-field, are they fed constant energy, or do they just emit enough to fill the field? I imagine the emission would be constant, given moments where the beam saber just runs out of energy and being able to change the output, etc.

I also was wondering if there was any case of a beam saber being used as a ranged weapon? I mean, like how the Rezel and Zeta Gundam can use their beam rifles as sabers I assume just by having the i-field container thing installed, and using constant energy, could the reverse be done with a beam saber? Or does it just emit out in every direction so it would just be a useless bunch of mega particles being wasted?

I know I have some slightly random questions and that they all seem a bit trivial, but I thought there might be some answers to be had here.

[Wingnut]

I also was wondering if there was any case of a beam saber being used as a ranged weapon? I mean, like how the Rezel and Zeta Gundam can use their beam rifles as sabers I assume just by having the i-field container thing installed, and using constant energy, could the reverse be done with a beam saber? Or does it just emit out in every direction so it would just be a useless bunch of mega particles being wasted?

There was at least one instance in Victory where Uso used 2 beam sabers to make an impromtu ranged weapon, but I would say it's at least theoretically possible given how many beam sabers in the Zeta era can double as launchers such as those on the Qubeley and Zeta Gundam itself that function as beam guns when stored in their recharge racks. Same goes for the ZZ as well. In my mind switching from blade to gun on the fly would result in the formed blade being shot out at whatever it was being pointed at.

[Bryant Molirse]

I'm not that spectacular with UC tech, but I would say, it might be possible, but I think the beams themselves would move incredibly slowly, as the sabers themselves, unless designed with a "launcher mechanism" don't have a way to propel the beam forward. Another problem would be particle seepage, as the end of the beam leaving the handle wouldn't be sealed via the containment field that forms the rest of the saber.

[Dark Duel]

There are also a couple of instances of beam sabers doing double duty as beam cannons while docked, as well. IIRC the ZZ's could do that, and I think so could the F97/Crossbone Gundams'.

[Xenosynth]

Ah yes, I forgot about the ZZ Gundam, as well as certain suits like the Qubeley using their beam sabers as ranged weapons as well.

That mostly covers the second question, but now what about the first? Like... beam sabers interacting with I-Fields that are used as defense (Unicorn, Big Zam, etc). With Big Zam, I believe the field was large enough that the Gundam could get close and pass through it, but with a smaller suit like the Unicorn, without being able to go into the 'bubble', would it break apart a beam saber? Most games and whatnot seem to be convinced that using a beam saber at any distance would be good, but then again most games also need balancing, and in games like GG it'd be a bit overpowered if the only thing that could hurt Big Zam from the space suits was vulcan cannons.

[Dark Duel]

In GvZ, I took out the Big Zam with a Ball, once. That was kinda fun. Hard as heck though.

I don't know a whole lot about Minovsky Particle physics (Mark might know more), but my limited understanding of it is that the reason the I-field deflects beam weapons the way it does is that it repels the mega-particles that make up the beam. Since a beam saber is, IIRC, composed of plasma contained in another I-field, the two I-fields - that of the saber and the barrier - would collide, but I have no idea whether that would cause any leakage of plasma in the blade. I can't recall off the top of my head many examples of beam sabers being used against i-fields, so I unfortunately can't help much. The only example of two I-field barrier-equipped mobile weapons that used beam sabers going up against each other off the top of my head is the GP03 v. Neue Ziel duel, but I can't remember if either used their I-field to block a beam saber.
My thought was that the two fields would repel each other, but I can't say for certain.

[AmuroNT1]

There are also a couple of instances of beam sabers doing double duty as beam cannons while docked, as well. IIRC the ZZ's could do that, and I think so could the F97/Crossbone Gundams'.

Yup, the Crossbones' sabers slot through the upper torso and function as...something. They're beam guns on the Core Fighter, but the manga depicts them as rapid shots, so I've seen them classed as beam machinecannons on at least one website.

In the same vein, the GP01/Fb's sabers also function as beam guns for the Core Fighter.

[AGF-Antoine]

Godzorla from Victory Gundam used it's beam sabers as beam cannons as well.

Also, in Crossbone I think I recalled a moment of the I-Field of the beam blade blocking the remains of a VSBR-shot after it passed through a double layer of beam shields.

In this sense I think the I-Field of a beam saber might negate the defensive I-Field and that being why beam sabers do work.
(Aside from just moving the MS through the I-Field first, at that point a beam rifle should probably work again as well.)

But yea, videogame dynamics are not a good way to determine effects, since there are gameplay reasons/mechanics they should cope with as well.

Also keep in mind that on some dual function beam sabers, the ranged beam emitter is located on the other side of the handle, like in the case of Double Zeta Gundam for example.
And I am surprised no-one mentioned that the beam sabers of Zeta Gundam become beam cannons in Waverider Mode.

A pattern I recognize is the beam sabers only being able to work as beam cannons when docked on the mobile suit, so they could possibly also function as the nozzles for the beam shots, instead of actually generating the particles needed for it
And the beam firing mechanism might actually not be located in the beam saber handle itself either.


AGF-Antoine

[Amion]

Recently I remember reading that the RX-78 actually had to discard it rifles in the novels because it destroyed something absolutely paramount to firing the rifle. Amuro discarded it in favor of a saber. So it would stand to reason that the beam sabers can actually act like a compact rifle, but still require that "something" in the arm or wherever. This probably changed over time as technology improved I would imagine.

And for reference's sake, I'm almost positive this was in the old discussion about beam sabers and whether or not they cut or not. Then again...maybe it wasn't.

[AmuroNT1]

Also, in Crossbone I think I recalled a moment of the I-Field of the beam blade blocking the remains of a VSBR-shot after it passed through a double layer of beam shields.

Well, yes and no.

You're describing the scene accurately - Kincaid blocks a shot from Harrison's F91 by layering the X-1's beam shields and beam zanber - but there's one less I-field than you think. According to the technical data, the beam zanber doesn't use an I-field the way normal beam sabers do, and is basically just a giant, unrestrained "flame" of plasma. This is what allows it to cleave enemy beam sabers so easily; its blade "contributes" its energy to the enemy's saber, whose I-field can't handle that much power and breaks.

[AGF-Antoine]

Well, yes and no.

You're describing the scene accurately - Kincaid blocks a shot from Harrison's F91 by layering the X-1's beam shields and beam zanber - but there's one less I-field than you think. According to the technical data, the beam zanber doesn't use an I-field the way normal beam sabers do, and is basically just a giant, unrestrained "flame" of plasma. This is what allows it to cleave enemy beam sabers so easily; its blade "contributes" its energy to the enemy's saber, whose I-field can't handle that much power and breaks.

I see, thanks for explaining and elaborating on it.
I have read a bit here and there, but never got around to reading all of it, or reading into tech explanations.


AGF-Antoine

[Dendrobium Stamen]

Recently I remember reading that the RX-78 actually had to discard it rifles in the novels because it destroyed something absolutely paramount to firing the rifle. Amuro discarded it in favor of a saber. So it would stand to reason that the beam sabers can actually act like a compact rifle, but still require that "something" in the arm or wherever. This probably changed over time as technology improved I would imagine.

That's another "yes and no" moment for this thread, I'm afraid...

The moment you're thinking of comes at some point in the first novel, as I recall; the Gundam's right arm had taken a hit from a Zaku bazooka, damaging one of the power lines in the arm which provided energy to the beam rifle. Fortunately, the novel tells us, the beam rifle and beam sabre use separate power lines, so the right arm could still use his melee weapon for some hack-and-slash fighting - a move made simply to save time, we're told, as in the heat of battle there was no opportunity to switch the rifle and shield over.

Of course, the novels also tell us that a beam rifle fires metal particles bundled together by a laser beam, or something to that effect, so its depiction of how these weapons work should be taken with a huge grain of salt, when comparing to the animated works.

[Amion]

Ok, thanks Dendrobium. I should have found that thread first. But goodness, it can be frustrating how there is so much material. I wonder if different rifles actually operate on the last principle you mentioned in your post, while others act with the I-field concept? I doubt it but it would in-universe explain why there are more than one example for stuff.

[balofo]

Also, in Crossbone I think I recalled a moment of the I-Field of the beam blade blocking the remains of a VSBR-shot after it passed through a double layer of beam shields.

Well, yes and no.

You're describing the scene accurately - Kincaid blocks a shot from Harrison's F91 by layering the X-1's beam shields and beam zanber - but there's one less I-field than you think. According to the technical data, the beam zanber doesn't use an I-field the way normal beam sabers do, and is basically just a giant, unrestrained "flame" of plasma. This is what allows it to cleave enemy beam sabers so easily; its blade "contributes" its energy to the enemy's saber, whose I-field can't handle that much power and breaks.

Amuro, from where did you get this Beam Zanber info? It's not from vol 1 technical data pages, MG kit perhaps?

Always thought the Beam Zanber was a high output Beam Saber, hence the ability to ''cut'' other Beam Sabers. This ability to provide extra power to the enemy saber seems interesting

[AmuroNT1]

I'll be honest, I heard this info a long time ago and can't quite recall where it was. I certainly hope it's not false info.

[balofo]

I'll be honest, I heard this info a long time ago and can't quite recall where it was. I certainly hope it's not false info.

It's not on REMOVED wiki nor in the MG manuals. Besides the technical data from X0 from vol1 of the Ghost manga says the Butterfly Buster's Beam Zanber mode has the same power of a Zoloat's Beam Saber. Tech from UC 130s can still match 150s tech but lost its edge.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The only example of two I-field barrier-equipped mobile weapons that used beam sabers going up against each other off the top of my head is the GP03 v. Neue Ziel duel, but I can't remember if either used their I-field to block a beam saber.
My thought was that the two fields would repel each other, but I can't say for certain.

Neither of them were shown blocking the others' beam sabers, and no one else tried to attack them with beam sabers, so no way to tell unfortunately. Even still, by the time they were fighting eachother with their beam sabers, both of their I-Fields were trashed anyway (the Neue Ziel crushing the Orchis' and, presumably with the Neue Ziel anyway, given Gato took that hit from the Solar System II as he took out the control ship).

Though, IIRC, Mashymere's Zaku III Custom used its beam saber to land a blow on the Quin Mantha in ZZ, and that had the improved I-Field (mega particle deflection system).

[Zinegata]

A couple of notes...

The I-field is different from a beam weapon.

An I-field is just a lattice of regular Minovsky particles, which cannot repel solid mass. It can only contain plasma, or repel other Minovksy particles.

A beam weapon is composed of a stream of fused Minovsky particles - hence the term "Mega particle beam". Mega particles CAN interact with solid matter, and this combined with the beam's velocity allows it to punch through a lot of traditional armor. Heck, with enough velocity, a mega-particle beam can smash through an I-field, as is the case of the VSBR rifle's high-speed setting.

====

An I-field cannot be used to damage an enemy Mobile Suit. It can only reflect shots from enemy beam weapons.

However, when an I-field is used to contain super-heated plasma, you get a beam sabre. This weapon damages the enemy not by Minovsky particles or megaparticles, but by melting metal through the super-heated plasma inside the sabre. Since I-fields repel each other, this is also how you get beam-sabre armed opponents to "block" each other's attacks.

This technology was then adapted into the "Beam Shield" technology in F91 (also seen in Victory Gundam). This combines a wide I-field with super-heated plasma sandwiched in between. This now provides Mobile Suits with all-around protection - the I-field bounces off beam shots, while the plasma burns away solid projectile shots.

The Beam Shield technology is soon able to create extremely large I-fields (with accompanying plasma) - one large enough that it can cover entire battleships, like the Reinforce Jr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GYB1neCEic

Which shows that the beam shield and beam sabre share the same technology, given that the Reinforce can switch its shield into a sword when needed.

Hence, in cases wherein a beam sabre "extends" and seemingly acts like a beam rifle, it's actually just "extending" the I-field to a much wider area along with its super-heated plasma. It's still not operating on the same mega-particle principle as the beam rifle; which would be a "particle beam weapon" in modern scientific terms.

As for the original question... in theory the beam sabre can reflect a beam rifle shot. It is an I-field after all. But unlike Star Wars I'm guessing Newtypes don't have the reflexes fast enough to actually deflect beam rifle shots

[CloudFF7]

I believe in SEED it was shown beam sabers could deflect beam shots, I remember Kira in the Freedom doing it in his battle against Rau in the Providence, and in a cutscene from Gundam Musou 2 when Zechs fights Amuro and Char he uses Epyon's beam sword to bat away a beam shot. So it's likely that beam sabers in all universes could do this, it just requires the pilot to be skilled enough and/or if dodging or blocking with a shield isn't an option.

[Zinegata]

I believe in SEED it was shown beam sabers could deflect beam shots, I remember Kira in the Freedom doing it in his battle against Rau in the Providence, and in a cutscene from Gundam Musou 2 when Zechs fights Amuro and Char he uses Epyon's beam sword to bat away a beam shot. So it's likely that beam sabers in all universes could do this, it just requires the pilot to be skilled enough and/or if dodging or blocking with a shield isn't an option.

SEED tech is not the same as UC (Original Gundam-> Victory) tech .