Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.

Moderators: ShadowCell, SNT1, mcred23, EZero8

Post Reply
Scheuch13
Cardboard Leo Ace
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:57 pm

Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Scheuch13 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:01 pm

When you look at EFF their equipment is pretty straight forward and conventional in terms of lines and approach. Yet Zeon has a distinctly odd flair to everything they build. Even their earth based equipment looks as though it was designed by people who had never set foot on the planet nor had the slightest clue about things such as gravity and aerodynamic efficiency.

They havent been in space that long for them not to know how to design efficient atmospheric aircraft or ground vehicles.

Examples:
-Wappa hover recon bike

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/wappa.htm

-Cui APC

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/cui.htm

Hell even the Magella attack is all kinds of oddness with its super high profile and jet engines on the turret.

User avatar
Dark Duel
Determined Shonen Hero
Posts: 4766
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:45 am

Scheuch13 wrote:They havent been in space that long for them not to know how to design efficient atmospheric aircraft or ground vehicles.
You'd think so...And yet...
Mind you, the Feddies' Don Escargot is barely better, but that one seems to be kind of a weird exception
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
// GUNPLA THREAD //

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."

User avatar
MythSearcher
HiMAT Spammer
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:12 pm

Scheuch13 wrote:When you look at EFF their equipment is pretty straight forward and conventional in terms of lines and approach. Yet Zeon has a distinctly odd flair to everything they build. Even their earth based equipment looks as though it was designed by people who had never set foot on the planet nor had the slightest clue about things such as gravity and aerodynamic efficiency.

They havent been in space that long for them not to know how to design efficient atmospheric aircraft or ground vehicles.

Examples:
-Wappa hover recon bike

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/wappa.htm

-Cui APC

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/cui.htm

Hell even the Magella attack is all kinds of oddness with its super high profile and jet engines on the turret.
Well, I already stated my view point in the other thread, but I guess I will state this again.

The Zeon had little place to test their equipments, and can only learn from books and records, so their aircrafts are mostly factoring for low speed combat, which they imagine would be the main stay under minovsky particle influences(bad estimates but luck for them the colony drop crippled the EFN and EFAF's response time and thus they are not facing a lot of EFAF fighters in the beginning of the war, and with little air superiority support, and the EFGF troops simply spreaded too far apart from each other, Zeon troops are not facing large groups in the beginning, also, the EFGF replied too heavily on satellite info, their troops are not used to estimating firing lengths without assistant, with little info on the MSs dimensions, it is also quite impossible to aim and most EFGF chose to fall back and regroup.

I like to refer to the Tiger manual in WWII, where they have detail dimensions scaled with the Tiger's turret markings, to teach their troops about aiming and estimating the distance with the enemy. With none of these at the beginning of OYW, EFGF M61 squads are simply blind(no satellite links), in experience(with little combat before OYW), very light armoured to a point where modern AFV lovers doubt their position as MBTs(so light that a Zaku can kick them and they are sent flying across the screen without giving the 60~70t or so Zaku ANY reaction force) and most likely sitting ducks against their enemies.


User avatar
MythSearcher
HiMAT Spammer
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:11 pm

Well, knowing real life planes like the Daimler-Benz Project "A"(The real life Medea), VVA-14(Also kinda like the Medea), XF-5U(real life dish like plane), the custer channel wing planes, XP-79B(No, this is not a 0079 product, but the Gundam Legacy flyer unit does look a lot like this plane), Bv141, He1078, P.13a, Me163, etc...
From an engineer graduate stand point I must say that the Dopp is actually stranger to have an extended cockpit for no good aerodynamics reason.
Last edited by MythSearcher on Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scheuch13
Cardboard Leo Ace
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:57 pm

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Scheuch13 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:18 pm

The one I absolutely can not understand is the luna tank.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/G87_Luna_Tank

It is like something davinci would design before anyone knows what a tank is supposed to look like.

User avatar
MythSearcher
HiMAT Spammer
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:55 pm

Scheuch13 wrote:The one I absolutely can not understand is the luna tank.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/G87_Luna_Tank

It is like something davinci would design before anyone knows what a tank is supposed to look like.
Considering the Adzam is also quite odd.

Well, rationally speaking, having a spherical body kinda gives better armour efficiency, we don't do it nowadays is mainly because of the manufacturing process, if it is easy to make curved armour, we will likely see a lot more rounded stuff in real life for almost everything.
Other considerations included logistics(stacking curved armour is not fun), ease of repair and such.
But when the Ball is a standard issue, and a lot of MS spots curved armour, I guess that's out of the question.

The waterdrop shape and the panels are my main concern here.
It actually looks more like a Dragon Quest Slime than any UC weapons...

User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:50 pm

Well what we do know is that zeon lacked the ability to build propeller based aircraft and since they tested there earth equipment in an resort colony leading to such problems as the aircraft being rounded space fighters. the megella attack tank lacks an turret but has an escape fighter that carries the main gun. the zaku marine type had issues keeping water out. things improved greatly due to the drop damaging the EFGF ability to fight. and the Dopp actually worked well enough agenst the tin-cod.

Xenosynth
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1171
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:03 am

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Xenosynth » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:14 am

But if they didn't have propeller based aircraft, what about things like the Fat Uncle? Were those developed on earth? Or do the propellers not really matter on it?

User avatar
ORegan
Monster of the Week
Posts: 1827
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:49 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by ORegan » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:38 am

Xenosynth wrote:But if they didn't have propeller based aircraft, what about things like the Fat Uncle? Were those developed on earth? Or do the propellers not really matter on it?

I think he means traditional propeller aircraft, such as the ones used in WWI and WWII. The Fat Uncle's props were VTOL, but used thermonuclear engines and wizardry to move about.

I would hope Zeon didn't lose the art of making propellers...otherwise that means they lost the technology to produce fans. :P But landing on the Earth significantly increased thier knowledge of the Earth's atmosphere and allowed them to improve on the problems Jiffylube brought up. They even rediscovered the lightning rod.

Edit: spelling errors be damned!
mcred23 wrote: Well... it's official: O'Regan is the next Hitler.
WhiteWingDemon wrote: Not to start anything, seeing as that is O'Regan's job...
ShadowCell wrote: O'Regan, quit hitting on other users.
Orrick Alexander wrote: Did anyone know that O'Regan is the reason there's no air in space?

v_zubko
Lackey GM Pilot
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:02 pm

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by v_zubko » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:53 am

I've always assumed that the Zeon issues with prop planes were exclusive to the piston engine as they would have no need to employ or maintain such technology in the colonies. Conversely, given the relative simplicity, they ought to be capable of operating turbine engines, although I would not expect optimization for planet side conditions.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war.

User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:53 am

I brought it up because it was an plot point in the series where an EFAF Dragonfly
lifting off from an zeon base leads to finding the double agent and exposing General Elran before Odessa because of the lack of propeller engine aircraft used by zeon.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/dragonfly.htm

Zeonista
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Zeonista » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:48 pm

With some of the Zeon designs I have the feeling Ohkawara was told to "make them look different" and so he did. Engineering traits be cast aside, the Zeons' vehicles have to look strange because they're from space! And so due to continuity, even the otherwise design-conscious 08th MS Platoon has to deal with Dopps, goony-bird recon aircraft, and whatnot.

That being said, there is a certain amount of no-frills effectiveness in some of the OYW vehicular designs. The Cui isn't the standard battle taxi APC, it's a strict assault vehicle made to deliver a squad of infantry straight to the target and have them leap directly into combat instead of scrambling out a hatch. The Wappa has two sizable hoverfans that give it a fair amount of stability as well as lift. The Medea is an effective and efficient load-hauler that borrows the helicopter concept of lifting cargo containers instead of loading/unloading an interior bay. (The US military aviation people have yet to do that!) And unlike the all-or-nothing Osprey, the Medea can act as a conventional airplane if its VTOL fans aren't working. So there's something to be said for the unconventional vehicles in the end.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:02 pm

I always took it as just 70's sci-fi design style. Zeon is the invading space army and has equipment designed to look like an non terrestrial force built it. the EFF stuff looks like late 70's modern military equipment with whatever was meant to be the big new tech mounted on it.

Ferrus_Manus
Lackey GM Pilot
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:14 pm
Location: On a Place Behind the Blaze
Contact:

Re: Zeon and their unconventional non-MS equipment

Post by Ferrus_Manus » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:37 pm

The Cui is first and foremost a pretty big target. A nice target practice for Type 61 crews. Plus the soldiers riding on it are nearly unprotected.

Also, I think they want to forget about the Cui. They didn't show it in MS IGLOO, MS IGLOO 2 or in the Iron Mustang manga. And this would've been a great place to show a revised version of it.
Iron in Mind. Iron in Body

Post Reply