Size of ships and LARGE objects

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MythSearcher
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:01 am

Well, this is why I think Columbus can stuff 50 or even 100 MSs in it.
http://space.uwants.com/attachments/201 ... 51RR8r.jpg
Also, this kinda proves that the 145X55X110 figure goes much better with the original Columbus instead of the 0083 version.

The background boxes are 5mX5m scale, measured from the MG GM height in this image.
The scale is each pixel represents 10cm(10 pixels is 1 metre)
The coloured boxes on the side view of Columbus and Columbus Modified are 145mX55m, using the 0083 modified 3 block version, one can clearly see that is is just about 45m, just like what Mark estimated in previous posts. However, if one fits the original 2 block version, the height is 55m.
The lame front view version is draw by me, and one can see that by utilizing the slanted portion on the side, one can park 4 rows of GM there, I did not emulate a 2 block version of GMs parking along side by side like the 3 block version, but one can see that the length of the compartment is about 60~65m long, if you count 12 boxes, you can see that 6 GMs standing side on the upper right hand corner fits into the 12 boxes.
It surely is a tight fit, and you have no space for any spare parts, but you get 8 rows of 6 GMs fitting on the wall of the Columbus, that's 48, and 8 rows of 11 GMs standing in line in the middle, that's 88, and you can stuff a total of 136 GMs in it.
Without giving the MSs scratches, one can do 8 in a row in the middle, that's 64, and you still get a total of 112 GMs.
And if we use the 50 cap number, we have 6 in a row on a side, that's 8 sides and you get 48, then you only need 2 in the back, that's a total of 50 without taking up most of the space in the middle of the compartments.

Even if we use the 145m X 45m 0083 version, you can fit at least 8 in a row just like the right side, so that's at least 48.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:42 pm

Sorry, but I'm just not finding this convincing. You're assuming that the classic version of the Columbus is not only just as long as the extended 0083 version, but actually higher, with really really tall cargo containers. I don't believe either of those.

Based on the animation, the 0083 model sheets, and measurements from the line art, I think it's pretty conclusive that the cargo compartments of the Columbus - either version - are 25-30 meters high at most. For that matter, the hatches are only 2/3 to 3/4 as high as the main hull (about 3/4 on the original and 2/3 on the Columbus Kai, as you can see from the line art comparison), never mind the vents on top - so the cargo compartments clearly don't occupy the entire vertical height of the ship.

So any analysis of the Columbus which relies on standing two layers of GMs on top of each other just seems unconvincing to me. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree! :-)


As for REMecha00Q's question about the Ball, since the Ball is relatively short - 12.8 meters overall according to the official information, about 10 meters based on the kits and the Gundam 0083 size comparisons - I think it is possible to stack them in two layers. But the Ball is about 15 meters long and 7 meters wide (as per the kits), so if we have a floor area that's about 60 meters long by 20 meters wide, the most we could do is fit four rows of three on each floor surface. That comes to 12 per layer x 2 layers per container x 2 containers = 48 Balls per Columbus.

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by REMecha00Q » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:05 pm

toysdream wrote: As for REMecha00Q's question about the Ball, since the Ball is relatively short - 12.8 meters overall according to the official information, about 10 meters based on the kits and the Gundam 0083 size comparisons - I think it is possible to stack them in two layers. But the Ball is about 15 meters long and 7 meters wide (as per the kits), so if we have a floor area that's about 60 meters long by 20 meters wide, the most we could do is fit four rows of three on each floor surface. That comes to 12 per layer x 2 layers per container x 2 containers = 48 Balls per Columbus.

-- Mark
Actually that number meshes better with the mechanic series claim, I figured it be more ratio based.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:18 am

Mark's numbers would give us the following carrying capacities:

Columbus (60X20):
-24 GMs OR
-48 Balls OR
-12 GMs + 24 Balls

Columbus Kai (80X20):
-32 GMs OR
-60 Balls OR
-16 GMs + 30 Balls

By the way, I found the perfect pic for figuring out the dimesions of the Columbus Kai:

Columbus Kai in UC

This picture shows that a Columbus Kai is almost as long as the Nahel Argama's central catapult, and although not clearly seen, it seems that not only the Columbus Kai's right container is connected to the Nahel Argama's central catapult, but also the Nahel Argama's right catapult seems to be open and aligned with the Columbus Kai's left container.

MythSearcher:

The 50 or 100 MS figure seems unlikely, particularly if we consider that even the largest warship of the OYW, the Dolos class MS carrier, was only capable of carrying 182 MS. To make matters worse, it seems that its MS capacity has been retconned to only a 100 MS as indicated in the MSV-R volume for the Gobble.

Speaking of the Dolos, is there any other new info on it, particularly regarding its interior? I have seen a few pictures, one even used for a diorama, but they don't seem to be official:

Dolos Hangar Alternative 1

The first one is the one I have seen dioramas of, but even those all seem to only show it with Zakus inside, but no Rick Doms and/or Gelgoogs. It do provides a way to cram 180 MS inside the Dolos, stored among 20 hangars, each capable of storing 9 MS, though it's possible it may only be able to store that many as along as they are regular Zaku types and not any larger MS. Maybe we could consider the 180/182 figure to be only achievable if exclusively carrying Zaku types, and the 100 MS figure for carrying MS of any type, as well as vehicles such as Gattles?

Dolos Hangar Alternative 2

The second one not only shows different types of MS, but even seems to consider other types of vehicles such as Gattles. It also shows a MS only arrangement which allows cramming 168 MS in the top floor of the ship, divided among 22 hangars with varied MS capacities depending on their location on the ship, and excluding any other MS stored in any lower hangar. Still, we could consider that the recommended loadout would be a 100 MS plus a large complement of Gattles and other vehicles.

Edit: Found another image that seems to make some sort of 100 mention regarding the Dolos 182 MS capacity:

Dolos File

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:00 am

toysdream wrote:Sorry, but I'm just not finding this convincing. You're assuming that the classic version of the Columbus is not only just as long as the extended 0083 version, but actually higher, with really really tall cargo containers. I don't believe either of those.

Based on the animation, the 0083 model sheets, and measurements from the line art, I think it's pretty conclusive that the cargo compartments of the Columbus - either version - are 25-30 meters high at most. For that matter, the hatches are only 2/3 to 3/4 as high as the main hull (about 3/4 on the original and 2/3 on the Columbus Kai, as you can see from the line art comparison), never mind the vents on top - so the cargo compartments clearly don't occupy the entire vertical height of the ship.

So any analysis of the Columbus which relies on standing two layers of GMs on top of each other just seems unconvincing to me. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree! :-)


As for REMecha00Q's question about the Ball, since the Ball is relatively short - 12.8 meters overall according to the official information, about 10 meters based on the kits and the Gundam 0083 size comparisons - I think it is possible to stack them in two layers. But the Ball is about 15 meters long and 7 meters wide (as per the kits), so if we have a floor area that's about 60 meters long by 20 meters wide, the most we could do is fit four rows of three on each floor surface. That comes to 12 per layer x 2 layers per container x 2 containers = 48 Balls per Columbus.

-- Mark

Well, I am not saying they are the same length, but the number given in 0083 suits the original version much better than the 0083 version.
@145m long and 110 wide, the 0083 version is simply to slim, and does not match the 55m high number at all. But if you fit the original Columbus into the same box, it simply fits in pretty well.
It seems like the 0083 version should be even longer than the 145m spec, instead of the original version being shorter.

The main problem we have here seems to be the lack of specs for the original Columbus until 0083.
The fun thing is that the number for the 0083 Columbus modified does not fit itself, but fits the original version much better.

I used your numbers in this pic:
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg
and got this:
http://space.uwants.com/attachments/201 ... 311Yay.jpg
The red box is in the same dimensions from your picture, The outer rim is 80m across, and the separation is 40m, with a height of 30m. I drew the black lines for the outer portion of the columbus.
The yellow box represents an area of 50m(l) X 30m(h), that is about 2 blocks on the 0083 version, and should be the shorter OYW counterpart container length.
With 10 in a row, 2 rows standing offset, and 2 rows of 5 on the walls, you can still fit 30 in one wing, and 60 in total. We can reduce the upright rows to stand a little further apart, and pack only 8 in a row, and we get 26 on each wing.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:Mark's numbers would give us the following carrying capacities:

MythSearcher:

The 50 or 100 MS figure seems unlikely, particularly if we consider that even the largest warship of the OYW, the Dolos class MS carrier, was only capable of carrying 182 MS. To make matters worse, it seems that its MS capacity has been retconned to only a 100 MS as indicated in the MSV-R volume for the Gobble.
Well, the Columbus and the Dolos have a very fundamental difference, that is, the Dolos is designed to be an MS carrier, while the Columbus is only a supply ship.
This means that the Columbus lacks any repair facilities, as we see in the Salamis Kai(0087), you get factory block that uses up almost half of the space that you can store MSs.
Towards the end of OYW, the EFSF is simply stuffing MSs onboard and getting them to the battlefield without thinking too much about repairs and resupplies, that is why we see in the anime GMs standing on top of Magellans and Salamises without being properly docked.
So as long as they can fit, they can be placed inside the container, which is still better than standing on top and bottom of the warships during long time of travel.(space debris can be deadly)
The ones you see standing on the warships are likely those that are carried to the battlefield by Columbuses and since the Columbuses do not have too much protection and nil weapons, they stayed in the back while the MSs are carried towards the main battle by ships of the line.

Also, the Dolos can support MAs, so its cap uses more space, at least for the 14 MA-05 Bigros.
Factoring in half of its space for a factory block, the massive Mega cannons, and a much larger propeller block, the Dolos having about 3~4 times the cap of a Columbus is not too absurd.
The internal space is likely 27 times of the Columbus, with half of it being cannon space, you get around 14 times for the MSs and MAs, half would be a factory block to repair and resupply MS/As, you get 7 times the space, then you have the spare parts that easily take up as much space as every MS you got, so you get your typical storage at around 3~4 times the space of a Columbus.
Where if you multiply that to 50, you get around 150~200. The catapults also takes up space as well.

If the pictures you provided are official, you can fit around 3~4 Columbus containers into each wing showing the MSs, so the numbers actually meshes pretty well.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:09 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:By the way, I found the perfect pic for figuring out the dimesions of the Columbus Kai:

Columbus Kai in UC

This picture shows that a Columbus Kai is almost as long as the Nahel Argama's central catapult, and although not clearly seen, it seems that not only the Columbus Kai's right container is connected to the Nahel Argama's central catapult, but also the Nahel Argama's right catapult seems to be open and aligned with the Columbus Kai's left container.
As you may have noticed, the screen graphics from Gundam UC frequently show top and side schematics for the Nahel Argama. I have the originals of these, since I'm responsible for checking the English text, but I probably shouldn't pass them around. But I can still take measurements off them, and I note that given an overall length of 380 meters, the Nahel Argama's central catapult - measured from the bottom of the hatch to the end of the catapult deck, excluding those two antennas - appears to be 147 meters long. Perfect match!

One odd thing, though, is that judging from the top-view schematics the Nahel Argama's hatches are narrower and closer together than those of the White Base. They seem to be about 15 meters wide and separated by 30 meters, for a total span of 60 meters (versus 20, 40, and 80 meters for the White Base). That may explain why they don't quite seem to line up with the Columbus Kai's hatches in this scene.


In any case, the dimensions of the Columbus Kai seem to be established beyond any reasonable doubt. The model sheet comparison, which is faithfully followed in the anime scenes, makes it clear that the spec length of 145 meters and spec width of 110 meters are reasonable and accurate. In the anime scene, the width of the Columbus Kai appears to be about 3/4 of its length, which is exactly what the specs would indicate.

The spec height of 55 meters seems completely nuts, but that's actually true for a lot of the 0083 ships (like the Zanzibar II), and all I can suggest is that they're factoring in a bunch of random antennas that are so delicate the artists couldn't be bothered to draw them. :-)

Since we have no decent comparisons for the classic Columbus, other than the anime's indication that its hatches line up with those of the White Base, we're reduced to debating whether the Columbus is basically a Columbus Kai without the extra cargo compartment and protruding thruster nozzles (which is my theory) or a much bigger ship in which every part is dramatically enlarged, but the compartments are proportionally shorter (which MythSearcher is proposing). That's basically just a matter of opinion, although I'll grant that the height-to-length ratio indicated by the Columbus Kai specs seems better suited to the original version.

As for MythSearcher's revised diagram... well, I guess it's physically possible to cram a whole lot of GMs into the Columbus Kai if you're prepared to lay them every which way, but at that point you may as well just stack them up like cordwood. :-)


Before we move on, here's one anime scene that has me perplexed...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... tfleet.jpg

In this panning shot of the Federation pursuit fleet from Gundam 0083, we can see a bunch of Salamis Kai cruisers being resupplied by Columbus Kais. In every single case, the Salamis seems to be twice as long as the Columbus; if you compare against those shots of the Albion being resupplied, it really does look as if the Salamis is as long as the 300-meter Albion!

And after all that painstaking analysis of the Salamis's forward hull, in which we had to stretch the laws of physics to justify a 20-meter hull height, it's almost shocking to see it depicted as higher than the entire cargo container of a Columbus Kai. :-)

Since the dimensions of the Columbus Kai (at least length and width) have been confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt, this rather implies that the animators are treating the Salamis Kai as if it's about 300 meters long. We get the same impression from this shot of the Neue Ziel shooting up a Salamis at point-blank range; even allowing for perspective, the Salamis Kai's length seems to be about four times the Neue Ziel's 75-meter height and width. Argh!


As for the Dolos: The color graphic comes from an issue of Model Graphix magazine, the black-and-white one is from a fanzine. They're both cute, but I figure the Dolos is big enough to fit all these machines somehow!

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:47 pm

Okay, let me blow your minds! I've added the 0083 version of the Salamis Kai to my Salamis and Columbus comparison graphics...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

The second of these, with the markups and labels, shows how I scaled the Salamis variants relative to each other. Basically, I'm measuring from the bottom part of the prow to the start of the side turret structure, which continues up the side of the bridge. As you can see, the 0083 version of the Salamis Kai has a proportionally small bridge and a bunch of extra engines tacked onto the back. Or, if you scale it so that the front part of the ship is the same size as that of the original Salamis, you'll find that its bridge is basically the same size, the turrets and radiator fins are in the same positions, and the 0083 version just has an extended prow and a huge engine extension!

And you know what? If the 0083 version were really about 300 meters, as indicated by the anime shots of it next to the Columbus Kai and the Neue Ziel, then the regular and Zeta Gundam versions would about 230 meters long!

Which suggests a Grand Unified Salamis Theory: Every version of this ship is built on the same basic hull, the original and Zeta Gundam versions really are 228 meters long, and the 0083 version is actually the biggest one thanks to its extended prow and engine section. In fact, it's really 50% bigger than the official specs - the only case where the 0083 specs are contradicted by the animation.

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:26 am

toysdream wrote:Which suggests a Grand Unified Salamis Theory: Every version of this ship is built on the same basic hull, the original and Zeta Gundam versions really are 228 meters long, and the 0083 version is actually the biggest one thanks to its extended prow and engine section. In fact, it's really 50% bigger than the official specs - the only case where the 0083 specs are contradicted by the animation.

-- Mark
I actually like that idea a lot, and actually that would mean that the Federation has continually refitted existing ships rather than building new ships from scratch between the OYW and 0083 and then again on the aftermath of Operation Stardust.

What about the 0083 Musai? Is it possible that it is also actually larger than the standard model? Here's the profile from Gundam Officials which included a rear view showing the extended hangar:

Musai Late Production Type

The front section also looks almost like it had a second hull attached below. Furthermore, if we assume that the turrets actually have the same size as other Musais (original Musai, Zeta's Musai Kai and 0080's Musai FPT), the 0083 Musai LPT is definitely larger.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:04 am

toysdream wrote:
As for MythSearcher's revised diagram... well, I guess it's physically possible to cram a whole lot of GMs into the Columbus Kai if you're prepared to lay them every which way, but at that point you may as well just stack them up like cordwood. :-)
Well, desperate times need desperate measures, since cramping them in is the only way to do so in OYW for the Feddies, I guess that's how they did it.
But stacking them up like cordwood would be a problem, you'll notice that I still keep a minimum distance between them, so the pilots can at least get in and giving the GMs their standard issue Spray guns/90mm machine guns is not much of a hassle.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is rational or a good thing to do, in fact, this is rather stupid, but still better than having the GMs line up on the outer hull of the Salamis and Magellans and have them shipped from Lunar II to Solomon, the debris is likely to damage most of the armour and even structure before they can even get into battle.

Later Columbus Kais, like the ones we see in 0083 and Sentinel, have a smaller cap since they finally got the time to fit the factory blocks in to do repair and maintenance.
toysdream wrote:Okay, let me blow your minds! I've added the 0083 version of the Salamis Kai to my Salamis and Columbus comparison graphics...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

The second of these, with the markups and labels, shows how I scaled the Salamis variants relative to each other. Basically, I'm measuring from the bottom part of the prow to the start of the side turret structure, which continues up the side of the bridge. As you can see, the 0083 version of the Salamis Kai has a proportionally small bridge and a bunch of extra engines tacked onto the back. Or, if you scale it so that the front part of the ship is the same size as that of the original Salamis, you'll find that its bridge is basically the same size, the turrets and radiator fins are in the same positions, and the 0083 version just has an extended prow and a huge engine extension!

And you know what? If the 0083 version were really about 300 meters, as indicated by the anime shots of it next to the Columbus Kai and the Neue Ziel, then the regular and Zeta Gundam versions would about 230 meters long!

Which suggests a Grand Unified Salamis Theory: Every version of this ship is built on the same basic hull, the original and Zeta Gundam versions really are 228 meters long, and the 0083 version is actually the biggest one thanks to its extended prow and engine section. In fact, it's really 50% bigger than the official specs - the only case where the 0083 specs are contradicted by the animation.

-- Mark
Hey, I liked this a lot, like I said way earlier, the 0083 specs contains so much bug, and it is so hard to believe they measured the ships before they draw them.

Assuming the Salamis Kai(0083) are older Salamis refitted, the hull shouldn't be changed by too much, lining up the main bridge, 2nd and 3rd bridge(against the turrets) and the turrets should be the most reasonable way to estimate the length.

And yes, sadly the 198m spec is the only thing that didn't match all of this, hopefully they will figure this out along with the Birmingham's length and revamp all the specs in later publications.

The only other option for the EFSF is to build all new ships that are 198m long, so the hull can be completely different.
If we use what I say in the Gelgoog thread, that they have a standard to follow(the docks and the manufacturing plants), they do have to fit it around 230m, and I guess reasonable technological advancement might be able to give them the slack of building similar but smaller ships that got the similar performance?
At least the EFF can build a staggering 80 ships during the OYW, I guess the 3 years after it will give us 240 new salamis with some spares.

OR, they did both, so some are 198m, and some are 300m :P

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:04 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:What about the 0083 Musai? Is it possible that it is also actually larger than the standard model?
Possible, yes, but I'm not sure it's necessary. Here's my first pass at a size comparison with the original Musai. In the second image, I've overlaid the original silhouette on top of the 0083 version...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

It's hard to find common features for scaling purposes, but I used the Komusai as a starting point (on the MythSearcher-ish premise that this should be a fairly standard component), and then tried to match the top line of the hull leading up to the bridge.

All very approximate, but in this kind of scenario, the two versions do seem about the same size. The hangar section is wider, pushing the engine nacelles out to the sides, but similar in length; the extra block in front sits on top of the existing bow and thus cuts into the space for gun turrets, which is compensated for by adding more of these small turrets elsewhere on the ship.


As far as the Columbus issue, I guess I don't see why we need to find a way to cram in 50 or 100 GMs, just because this claim was made in some old third-party book. It's not like we need to worry about animation compatibility, because the animation has never depicted mobile suits being deployed from a Columbus; this is entirely a concern of the publishing side, which as usual is full of contradictions and dubious claims.

In that case, I feel like our duty as fans is simply to look at the various conflicting claims, and decide which we find most plausible. I like the claim from Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics series, that the wartime Columbus could carry about 20 GMs or 50 Balls in total. This claim is repeated in Hobby Japan's "Mobile Suit Gundam The RPG" books, along with the additional tidbit that in the 0080s the Columbus was refitted as an actual mobile suit carrier with catapults and maintenance facilities, cutting its capacity to 12 mobile suits (one company). This all seems more consistent with the ship's dimensions, so I'm happy to choose this theory from the many competing published claims. :-)


And I'm glad people like the "big Salamis Kai" theory! It does look pretty impressive lined up against the other types in that size comparison, and helps explain why the Federation didn't feel the need to build any more Magellans after the war.

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:06 am

toysdream wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:What about the 0083 Musai? Is it possible that it is also actually larger than the standard model?
Possible, yes, but I'm not sure it's necessary. Here's my first pass at a size comparison with the original Musai. In the second image, I've overlaid the original silhouette on top of the 0083 version...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

It's hard to find common features for scaling purposes, but I used the Komusai as a starting point (on the MythSearcher-ish premise that this should be a fairly standard component), and then tried to match the top line of the hull leading up to the bridge.

All very approximate, but in this kind of scenario, the two versions do seem about the same size. The hangar section is wider, pushing the engine nacelles out to the sides, but similar in length; the extra block in front sits on top of the existing bow and thus cuts into the space for gun turrets, which is compensated for by adding more of these small turrets elsewhere on the ship.
Using the Komusai for comparing these ships doesn't sound like a good idea, specially considering that they use different models:

Komusai
Komusai II (The picture shows a Komusai II + booster)

Furthermore, unlike the Komusai from 0080 and the Komusai II, whose wing are attached directly to the main body, the original Komusai basically has its rear wings floating behind the actual ship. Check these images of the different Komusais as seen in the Gihren's Greed games:

Komusai
Komusai II (LPT/0083)
Komusai (FPT/0080)

Finally, I think the Komusai II is more closely related to the Hotol of MS Igloo than to a Komusai. They seem to share traits such as the bridge and MS hatch:

Komusai II hatch
Hotol hatch

We could almost consider that the Hotol is a Komusai II whose booster is stacked below the ship instead of attached to the rear of it.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:12 am

toysdream wrote: As far as the Columbus issue, I guess I don't see why we need to find a way to cram in 50 or 100 GMs, just because this claim was made in some old third-party book. It's not like we need to worry about animation compatibility, because the animation has never depicted mobile suits being deployed from a Columbus; this is entirely a concern of the publishing side, which as usual is full of contradictions and dubious claims.

In that case, I feel like our duty as fans is simply to look at the various conflicting claims, and decide which we find most plausible. I like the claim from Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics series, that the wartime Columbus could carry about 20 GMs or 50 Balls in total. This claim is repeated in Hobby Japan's "Mobile Suit Gundam The RPG" books, along with the additional tidbit that in the 0080s the Columbus was refitted as an actual mobile suit carrier with catapults and maintenance facilities, cutting its capacity to 12 mobile suits (one company). This all seems more consistent with the ship's dimensions, so I'm happy to choose this theory from the many competing published claims. :-)


And I'm glad people like the "big Salamis Kai" theory! It does look pretty impressive lined up against the other types in that size comparison, and helps explain why the Federation didn't feel the need to build any more Magellans after the war.

-- Mark
Just think of the cap like this, it is simply from a container ship POV, you do need something to transport the suits, no?

BTW, it is hard to belief the EFSF didn't have any spacecraft carriers before the OYW, stuffing Saberfishies in the Columbus just won't get the job done, you do need repairs, maintenance and resupplies, and there seems to be no ship for this kind of job.
If they really don't have any, I guess that's why they are in such disadvantage during the OYW, even if the Saberfishes are a match against the Zakus, the EFSF would have no reasonable way to transport them to the battlefield other than some container ship that cannot resupply their saberfishes that use propellants too fast.

About the refitted Columbus, Sentinel's Columbus can fit 36 GM IIIs, but it is a landing ship refit, not a carrier refit. So I guess the cap is also different.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:45 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Using the Komusai for comparing these ships doesn't sound like a good idea, specially considering that they use different models:
Very true, especially the comparison of the Komusai II and the Hotol. The Hotol's main body is clearly based on the Komusai II's optional booster, to the extent that we can probably use it as a scale comparison.

But despite the radical difference in design, the Komusai II does seem to be pretty similar to the original Komusai in terms of overall length - about 60-65 meters, judging from the mobile suit silhouettes in the Gundam 0083 Musai model sheets. Based on the MS Igloo design drawings, especially the side view which shows it in scale to a Zaku II, the Hotol seems to be twice that length. At a first approximation, I believe that if we figure the length of the booster section based on the Hotol schematics, this also supports an overall length of 65 meters for the Komusai II. Diagrams coming soon!

MythSearcher wrote:BTW, it is hard to belief the EFSF didn't have any spacecraft carriers before the OYW, stuffing Saberfishies in the Columbus just won't get the job done, you do need repairs, maintenance and resupplies, and there seems to be no ship for this kind of job.
Sure there was. The MSV books talked a lot about the Antietam class, a variant of the Columbus that was refitted as a space fighter carrier, with catapults and maintenance facilities. These could carry 25-30 Saberfish fighters, and according to the MSV Handbook series, the Federation Forces built 24 of these "auxiliary carriers" during the war.

There's also the Trafalgar class, which pops up in Tomino's novels as well as the MSV Handbook series. (See this thread.) The novels indicate that the Trafalgar can carry 60 fighters, but the MSV Handbooks say it only carries 12 Saberfish fighters or six Public assault boats. Go figure.

On the whole, though, the Federation Space Force seems weirdly resistant to the idea of carrier-based space fighters prior to the outbreak of the war. The Saberfish, apparently, was jointly developed by the air and space forces, but the space force initially refused to deploy them. As per Entertainment Bible 1: "It was originally developed as a carrier-based fighter for Magellan-class battleships, but due to opposition from the space force, it was used as a high altitude fighter instead."

About the refitted Columbus, Sentinel's Columbus can fit 36 GM IIIs, but it is a landing ship refit, not a carrier refit. So I guess the cap is also different.
Gundam Sentinel also favors very high mobile suit capacities for its ships, saying that you can carry nine machines in a Salamis Kai. So we may want to take that claim with a few grains of salt, but it's still the highest reputable figure we've seen associated with the Columbus.

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by mcred23 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:24 am

toysdream wrote:Which suggests a Grand Unified Salamis Theory: Every version of this ship is built on the same basic hull, the original and Zeta Gundam versions really are 228 meters long, and the 0083 version is actually the biggest one thanks to its extended prow and engine section. In fact, it's really 50% bigger than the official specs - the only case where the 0083 specs are contradicted by the animation.
Very interesting, but I wonder, how well does the animation support this? We all know the size of things can vary quite a bit (Since we all know animation ain't perfect, particularly in the older shows), but are some of them at least consistent within themselves or do the size of Salamis class ships vary frequently?

For example, there is a pretty good shot early in episode 16 of Victory Gundam that shows two Salamis Kai's (In what appears to be Zeta-era Titans colors :lol:) flanking a Clop as they are escorting the Reinforce out to sea before launching into space, and in said shot, the Salamis Kai's are both quite a bit shorter than the Clop, better fitting with the 228 meter length rather than being nearly idential to the 292 meter Clop as they would be if they were 288 meters long. There's another scene a few minutes later in the episode where one Salamis Kai is towing the Reinforce into space and we get a great side view of both ships, and both are nearly identical in size (Which better suits the 20-odd meter difference if the Salamis Kai is only 228 meters long, IMO).

So, that one episode seems to support the Grand Unified Salamis Theory®©, but do other shows/episodes do the same, or is that one an exception, or do we have to chalk it up to animation being imperfect and isn't very helpful here?
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:12 am

toysdream wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:Using the Komusai for comparing these ships doesn't sound like a good idea, specially considering that they use different models:
Very true, especially the comparison of the Komusai II and the Hotol. The Hotol's main body is clearly based on the Komusai II's optional booster, to the extent that we can probably use it as a scale comparison.

But despite the radical difference in design, the Komusai II does seem to be pretty similar to the original Komusai in terms of overall length - about 60-65 meters, judging from the mobile suit silhouettes in the Gundam 0083 Musai model sheets. Based on the MS Igloo design drawings, especially the side view which shows it in scale to a Zaku II, the Hotol seems to be twice that length. At a first approximation, I believe that if we figure the length of the booster section based on the Hotol schematics, this also supports an overall length of 65 meters for the Komusai II. Diagrams coming soon!

MythSearcher wrote:BTW, it is hard to belief the EFSF didn't have any spacecraft carriers before the OYW, stuffing Saberfishies in the Columbus just won't get the job done, you do need repairs, maintenance and resupplies, and there seems to be no ship for this kind of job.
Sure there was. The MSV books talked a lot about the Antietam class, a variant of the Columbus that was refitted as a space fighter carrier, with catapults and maintenance facilities. These could carry 25-30 Saberfish fighters, and according to the MSV Handbook series, the Federation Forces built 24 of these "auxiliary carriers" during the war.

There's also the Trafalgar class, which pops up in Tomino's novels as well as the MSV Handbook series. (See this thread.) The novels indicate that the Trafalgar can carry 60 fighters, but the MSV Handbooks say it only carries 12 Saberfish fighters or six Public assault boats. Go figure.

On the whole, though, the Federation Space Force seems weirdly resistant to the idea of carrier-based space fighters prior to the outbreak of the war. The Saberfish, apparently, was jointly developed by the air and space forces, but the space force initially refused to deploy them. As per Entertainment Bible 1: "It was originally developed as a carrier-based fighter for Magellan-class battleships, but due to opposition from the space force, it was used as a high altitude fighter instead."

About the refitted Columbus, Sentinel's Columbus can fit 36 GM IIIs, but it is a landing ship refit, not a carrier refit. So I guess the cap is also different.
Gundam Sentinel also favors very high mobile suit capacities for its ships, saying that you can carry nine machines in a Salamis Kai. So we may want to take that claim with a few grains of salt, but it's still the highest reputable figure we've seen associated with the Columbus.

-- Mark
The Komusai and II do have a similar cap, however, the shape of the Komusai II seemed to be very inefficient in space, so I guess their length can be rather different.

The carrier type ships of the EFSF seems to have fallen out of the setting books, I am aware of the Antetem class and the Trafalgar class, but it seems like who ever is writing all those books kinda ignore them overall. Gundam Officials did talk about the Antetem class a little bit, but more like a war time emergency refit rather than an existing pre-war ship.
The MSV-R series seems to have noticed the problem, and redesigned a new carrier from a refitted salamis, but still quite inefficient. If the Zeon's Puzock class got a 60 cap, the EFSF really need a carrier or at least transport ship with similar cap.
The EFSF got some serious issues in their carrierphobia, especially shown in 0083, where even after the OYW, which showed a great need in carrying mobile units to the battlefield seems to be very important, they still build tons of turret ships instead of carriers.
Pre-OYW, one can still make a valid argument that under the superior radar system, no mobile unit can get pass the missiles and CIWS of the ships, and the Mega cannons can fire like a few thousand kilometres(Sentinel gave us FAZZ and Xeku Eins shooting each other in the range of few ten thousand kilometres), thus rendering mobile units pretty useless, ships will open fire at ranges the space fighters can hardly reach.
Post-OYW? I guess the EFSF didn't learn their lessons?


About the cap of the Sentinel ships, actually, that's much more plausible numbers, think of the cap of real-life ships, especially WWII ships. Even the Yamato, supposedly largest battleship, at 263m long, can carry 7 planes, with 2 catapults.
Yes, MSs are larger, but the Magellan is 327m, and its shape is much more spacious and efficient than a naval ship(we don't have to care about density in space, you can sink a naval ship if its too heavy, but you can't sink a spaceship even if its density is above 1)
Even if we need to care for the overall weight of the ship because we need to launch it from Earth, we can still pack MSs in it after it got to space.
So 9~12 MSs on a Magellan and 9 on the Salamis is actually much more plausible, since we need that much MSs to scout the relatively larger space anyway.
The much smaller numbers in other settings might be more fitting for the physical space available,(Actually, I doubt that as well, they are just of efficiently utilizing the space, real life military designs use every single inch you can find, they will not mind stuffing parts in everywhere and you can never get that amount of free space you see in the WB arm)
yet it is way too inefficient and ineffective for a space warship design and tactics point of view.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:09 am

Regarding the Columbus, I don't understand the need for carrying 50 MS, if even possible and disregarding all the problems such situation would represent, since the Federation should have more than enough Columbus ships to load their GMs in an orderly manner, with the numbers Mark suggested.

Supposing we had to ferry 600 GMs and 600 Balls to the battlefield, we would need 25 Columbus for all the GMs and 13 Columbus for all the Balls, for a combined total of 38 ships.

As for Sentinel's Salamis Kai MS capacity, I checked some of the images at Gearsonline:

Gundam Sentinel Gallery

While I'm not a 100% sure, the hangar of the Salamis Kai seen in the last two pictures do seems to be slightly longer than the standard model: basically the plate in front of the forward guns (the outside MS hangar wall) is twice as long as the section that connects the MS hangar to the forward missile launchers. In the standard Salamis Kai, that section is only slightly shorter than the MS hangar wall. For a better comparison, check the larger images at the wiki:

Gundam Wiki Salamis Kai Article

1- Compare the second to last picture of the gearsonline gallery to a front image of the Salamis Kai.
2- Compare the last picture of the gearsonline gallery to the rear image of the Salamis Kai.

From these we can see that the Sentinel version has an extended hangar, which would explain its unusually high MS capacity. The max MS capacity of a regular Salamis Kai is most likely 4 MS as indicated by the animation.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Deacon Blues » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:57 am

Speaking of Sentinel, how do we go about classifying the Refit Colombus-class that appear in it? I'm specifically referring to the Iwo Jima and the Ivan Rogov. For some reason these Colombus-class are pegged as "Colombus Kai Assault Landing Craft". The Ivan Rogov is pegged at carrying 36 MS, but I can't tell if that's really supposed to be for both ships or what... :S

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:56 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Regarding the Columbus, I don't understand the need for carrying 50 MS, if even possible and disregarding all the problems such situation would represent, since the Federation should have more than enough Columbus ships to load their GMs in an orderly manner, with the numbers Mark suggested.

Supposing we had to ferry 600 GMs and 600 Balls to the battlefield, we would need 25 Columbus for all the GMs and 13 Columbus for all the Balls, for a combined total of 38 ships.

As for Sentinel's Salamis Kai MS capacity, I checked some of the images at Gearsonline:

Gundam Sentinel Gallery

While I'm not a 100% sure, the hangar of the Salamis Kai seen in the last two pictures do seems to be slightly longer than the standard model: basically the plate in front of the forward guns (the outside MS hangar wall) is twice as long as the section that connects the MS hangar to the forward missile launchers. In the standard Salamis Kai, that section is only slightly shorter than the MS hangar wall. For a better comparison, check the larger images at the wiki:

Gundam Wiki Salamis Kai Article

1- Compare the second to last picture of the gearsonline gallery to a front image of the Salamis Kai.
2- Compare the last picture of the gearsonline gallery to the rear image of the Salamis Kai.

From these we can see that the Sentinel version has an extended hangar, which would explain its unusually high MS capacity. The max MS capacity of a regular Salamis Kai is most likely 4 MS as indicated by the animation.
The problem here is the need to carry other supplies as well.
Columbus class was the supply ship before the introduction of MSs, and thus their numbers should correspond to the number of ships they supply, instead of having a massive number of Columbus, the EFSF likely only had limited numbers of them that meets their need, that's it.
You don't build hundreds of ships and hope that they can be of use some time later, you only build certain numbers, maybe a few extras, but not many more. So once the GM was introduced, you don't have tons of Columbuses waiting for them(as the EFSF did not even think of using the Columbus class as a carrier.)

The number of Balls are more than your numbers.
Even if we take the MG guides seriously, that the EFF only manufactured 42+288 GMs overall, that's not counting the variants, the EFF did get about 1200 SP-W03 to be refitted to Balls, and you have around 1530 units to carry to the battlefield.
330 GMs are 16.5 Columbus and 1200 Balls are 24 Columbus, along with the suggestion of about each Columbus supplies 1 ship, you need another few hundred for the turret ships.
You also need tons of supplies for the missile ships as well.
I just don't think the EFSF will want to have that much Columbuses in the battlefield.

The Salamis Kai in the original Sentinel pictures(the scratch build model) looks pretty much the same as the settings line art, it does lack a little bit of the contour shape in the middle due to the scratch build nature, but overall it is not longer. If it seems longer, it is because of the missile launcher in the front end looks longer. All of the RPG magazine picture seems to have used that model as the basis of the drawings, so you can see they all lacks the contour. If anything, it is not longer, but slimmer, and lacks the side bulky launcher part seen in the regular art, and got a flat side. I guess this way it does not block the turret? But I don't think this really gives it more space.
Deacon Blues wrote:Speaking of Sentinel, how do we go about classifying the Refit Colombus-class that appear in it? I'm specifically referring to the Iwo Jima and the Ivan Rogov. For some reason these Colombus-class are pegged as "Colombus Kai Assault Landing Craft". The Ivan Rogov is pegged at carrying 36 MS, but I can't tell if that's really supposed to be for both ships or what... :S
Yes, the refitted Columbus are no longer cargo ships, but assault landing crafts. I would imagine their usage became more like the WB, or landing ships that carry troops to land. In the battle of ABQ in the OYW, Salamis and Magellan are used that way, I guess they don't want to do that anymore with their expensive ships.
They are not supply ships, so they just carry the MSs to the battlefield, rush in, take the enemy fire, and release the MSs.
36 seems to be reasonable, if we use the shorter 2 block version estimations.

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by toysdream » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:56 pm

I really don't have anything else to add to the Columbus discussion. But when we're figuring out where to put all those mobile suits, we might want to remember that the original series also shows mobile suits being carried inside Magellan and Salamis ships.

During the battles of Solomon and A Baoa Qu, we see both types deploying GMs from cargo compartments on the underside of the ship, and the Magellan also deploys Balls from from the shuttle bay in front of its bridge. According to my notes, we see a Magellan deploying at least three GMs and four Balls in First Gundam episode 35. In episode 42, we see at least four GMs exiting from a Salamis.

It's not clear whether all Magellan and Salamis ships have this capability, although the ships in question don't seem to be modified in any way. But this is the only case in the original series - or in fact, in any animated work that takes place during the One Year War! - where we see any Federation ship aside from the White Base and Gray Phantom carrying mobile suits internally.


Onward! Let's revisit that HOTOL and Komusai II comparison.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

The first of these shows a side view schematic of the HOTOL, as well as a top pass of the HOTOL and booster-equipped Komusai II where I've tried to match the size of the engine sections. In the second one, I've added some notes and markup. The HOTOL seems to be about 125 meters long, and if my scaling is accurate, that makes the booster-equipped Komusai II about 170 meters. The Komusai II itself would be about 70 meters long, excluding tail fins, which is indeed bigger than the original Komusai.

Of course, the HOTOL itself didn't exist when Gundam 0083 was produced, so if this is a scaling error then we should probably blame it on the MS Igloo production team...


Speaking of scaling errors, let's revisit Gundam 0083's Salamis Kai. The two main cases where we see this compared directly to mobile weapons are Cima's attack on a Salamis Kai bridge in episode 5, and Gato's point-blank attack in episode 11 (which is replayed in front of the Solar System II in episode 13). Here are some key frames from Cima's attack:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis01.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis04.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis06.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis07.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis08.jpg

There were even more steps to Gato's attack. Here are a couple of frames that really show the size comparison:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis05.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis06.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis07.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis09.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis10.jpg

Here's the reprise of that sequence from episode 13, which is a little easier to see thanks to the brighter background:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis02.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... amis04.jpg

Whew! So what do these indicate? Here's a comparison chart with the Neue Ziel, Gelgoog Marine, and Salamis Kai at a few different sizes...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

Comparing this against the Neue Ziel attack scene, it's obvious that the Salamis Kai in the animation is extremely foreshortened by perspective, but the height comparison should be pretty objective. The clearest of these is in frame 6 from episode 11, where we can see that the Neue Ziel's full height is about 3 times that of the Salamis Kai's hull, and about 1.3 times the distance from the top of the Salamis bridge to the bottom of its radiator fin. Honestly, the comparison that seems to work best for this scene is the "Goldilocks" scenario in which the Salamis Kai is about 228 meters.

But as for Cima's celebrated bridge stomp, there's no question that this supports the bigger size. If the Salamis Kai is less than 300 meters, it's virtually impossible for her Gelgoog to stand on top of its bridge at all!


Lastly, we've raised the question of Zeon's Papua and Pazock-class supply ships, which are said to carry 20 and 60 mobile suits respectively. As far as I can tell, this claim was invented out of thin air for Gundam Officials - I can't find a supporting claim in any previous publication. It's further complicated by the fact that the size of these ships is really unclear.

Gundam 0083, for whatever reason, says that these ships are really huge (260 meters for the Pazock, 300 meters for the Papua). In this case, the animation is consistent with these specs:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... leet01.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... leet02.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... leet03.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... sfleet.jpg

Just as the model sheets indicate, the Papua is huge compared to the Musai, and the Pazock's hatches can fit a mobile suit.

The problem with this, though, is that the Papua's conveyor pipes were originally supposed to line up with the circular hatches on the side of the Musai's mobile suit hangar. The proportions of these features on the Musai and Papua are very different depending on what artwork you consult, but this does require the Papua to be pretty small compared to the Musai:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... papua7.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... papua8.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... papua9.jpg

When I measure this out, I end up with a length of anywhere from 130 to 200 meters for the Papua, depending on how proportionally large the hatches and conveyor pipes are. The comparison shots from First Gundam are pretty fuzzy, but they seem to support the lower end of that range.

-- Mark

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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:59 am

toysdream wrote:I really don't have anything else to add to the Columbus discussion. But when we're figuring out where to put all those mobile suits, we might want to remember that the original series also shows mobile suits being carried inside Magellan and Salamis ships.

During the battles of Solomon and A Baoa Qu, we see both types deploying GMs from cargo compartments on the underside of the ship, and the Magellan also deploys Balls from from the shuttle bay in front of its bridge. According to my notes, we see a Magellan deploying at least three GMs and four Balls in First Gundam episode 35. In episode 42, we see at least four GMs exiting from a Salamis.

It's not clear whether all Magellan and Salamis ships have this capability, although the ships in question don't seem to be modified in any way. But this is the only case in the original series - or in fact, in any animated work that takes place during the One Year War! - where we see any Federation ship aside from the White Base and Gray Phantom carrying mobile suits internally.
In the Gihren's Greed videogames, such ships have been retconned and are a given a different design:

Magellan Standard Type
Magellan MS Carrier Type
Salamis Standard Type
Salamis MS Carrier Type

These MS carrier type ships (or IIRC, Vinson Plan type ships) are most likely based on Fuji class.

Maybe they should have further combined that design with the Salamis MP (Mobile Pod) Carrier Type from MS Igloo and turned it into a Salamis Carrier Type, loaded with 6 Balls on the front rack and 4 GMs on its rear MS hangar, with the possibility fo strapping 3 more on the bottom of the ship. At that point its firepower would have probably made it unsuitable for frontline combat though, but at the same time it would mean that less ships would have to be modified at all, leaving mroe standard class Salamis available for frontline combat.
toysdream wrote:Onward! Let's revisit that HOTOL and Komusai II comparison.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

The first of these shows a side view schematic of the HOTOL, as well as a top pass of the HOTOL and booster-equipped Komusai II where I've tried to match the size of the engine sections. In the second one, I've added some notes and markup. The HOTOL seems to be about 125 meters long, and if my scaling is accurate, that makes the booster-equipped Komusai II about 170 meters. The Komusai II itself would be about 70 meters long, excluding tail fins, which is indeed bigger than the original Komusai.

Of course, the HOTOL itself didn't exist when Gundam 0083 was produced, so if this is a scaling error then we should probably blame it on the MS Igloo production team...
I have a couple pictures that might help:

Hotol Hatch Open Top View

Hotol Colliding into HLV

And for reference regarding the size of an MS Igloo HLV:

Hotol Profile with Zaku standing on hatch

Regarding the Papua, in this thread you pointed out that the length from MS Igloo, 253m, might be the best option.

Any chance we can figure out the length of the obscure Pazock Kai from 0080 with our current size theories for the Tivvay? Unfortuantely I can't find the larger image I had showing the rest of the Tivvay as well.

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