Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

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toysdream
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Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by toysdream » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:09 am

Once again, I'm pondering the matter of One Year War-era mobile suit specs, thanks in part to the new edition of the MS Encyclopedia. And once again, my previous thread on the subject has been inert for three months, which is long enough that it seems best to start a new one rather than resurrecting the old one. Here are links to the previous variations on this theme:

Vintage MS: Playing With Specs
Heavy Mobile Suits
MSV-R and Vintage MS Specs

So what's new in the Year of the Snake version? Well, let's start with the new MS Encyclopedia.


In the previous 2009 edition, the black-and-white line art pages added a bunch of MSV specs from Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics series. In some cases (like the Gelgoog Cannon), these conflicted with the Sunrise-authorized specs that appeared in the color section. And as per usual, the MS Encyclopedia editors mangled the heck out of them - for example, the Zaku Desert Type and Marine Type specs are mixed up, and likewise for the MS-07H-4 Gouf and the YMS-08A. But in whatever mangled form, these specs were retained in the new edition and copied-and-pasted into the color pages; they've also been popping up in toy and model packaging, and they seem to be the basis for a lot of the MSV-R specs. So we may as well try to get used to them.

Which means, among other things...

FA-78-1: Full weight is listed at 93.1 tons, thruster output at 60,500 kg. I first saw these figures in a 2000 issue of Dengeki Hobby magazine, and now they're in the MS Encyclopedia.

RGM-79SC: They kept the Sunrise-authorized base weight of 44.2 tons, but added the other specs from Gundam Mechanics (full weight 75.3 tons, generator output 1,390 kW, thruster output 68,000 kg, sensor radius 7,300 meters).

MS-06D: Base weight is back to 61.3 tons, as per Entertainment Bible 1, rather than the 48.8 tons previously listed in the MS Encyclopedia. This change, too, has been reflected in the MSV-R series.

MS-06E: All specs as per Gundam Mechanics.

MS-06M: Still using the Entertainment Bible 1 specs, although now they're all mixed up with the Desert Type.

MS-06R-1A: Base weight is back to 61.8 tons, as per Entertainment Bible 1 and Gundam Mechanics, rather than the revised figure of 56.8 tons. (The MSV-R series says 61.8 tons, too.) Thruster output is listed as 52,000 kg a la Gundam Mechanics, rather than 49,800 kg.

MS-06R-2: All specs as per Gundam Mechanics, including a base weight of 49.5 tons rather than the 58.2 tons previously listed in the MS Encyclopedia. As I've noted, this figure, which presumably reflects the new lightweight materials used in the R-2, is exactly 80% of the R-1A's base weight. More on that in a bit.

MS-06Z: I don't think the base weight was deliberately changed, but they pasted in a figure of 43.8t for this, maybe from the Rick Dom.

MS-07H: All specs as per Gundam Mechanics. The base weight, which was 58.5 tons in the previous MS Encyclopedia, has reverted back to Gundam Mechanics's value of 63.9 tons.

MS-07H-4: Previously listed as 65.2 tons in the MS Encyclopedia, and then reduced to 62.5 tons. Now listed as 55.7 tons because they mixed up its specs with the YMS-08A.

MS-14B: Still using the same specs as in Entertainment Bible 1. Base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 76.8 tons, etc.

MS-14C: Now this is interesting. Gundam Mechanics lists this with a base weight of 55.8 tons, full weight 79.8 tons. In the new MS Encyclopedia, they're still using the lighter base weight of 44.5 tons from the previous edition, along with a revised full weight of 68.5 tons. In other words, they adjusted the full weight from Gundam Mechanics to match the lower base weight; this is the only genuinely new spec in the entire book!

A couple of weird developments in the First Gundam pages, too...

MS-09: Full weight now listed at 79.9 tons instead of 81.8 tons. This was the figure listed in the HG-UC kit manual, too.

MS-09R: Previously listed together with the original Dom with a single set of specs. This seems to have led to a bunch of people assuming the Rick Dom also has a base weight of 62.6 tons. This time, they've attempted to restore the previous figure of 43.8 tons, but mistyped it as 48.3 tons. Go figure.

MS-14: Now listed with a base weight of 53.5 tons (same as the MS-14B), alongside the previously reported full weight of 73.3 tons. More on that in a minute, too.


First, let's think about the MS-06R series. If we embrace the MS-06R-2 specs from Gundam Mechanics, we have a base weight of 49.5 tons and a full weight of 75.0 tons. The 25.5 ton difference between those two figures is partly carried equipment and partly propellant; see previous discussions of mass ratios for more on this. Based on precedent established in the Zeta and ZZ specs, the equipment weight is probably a round number between 4.0 tons (the minimum we see in later shows) and 6.0 tons (the payload of the Hizack). That gives us three likely scenarios:

49.5 + 6.0 + 19.5 tons = 75.0 tons (mass ratio 1.35)
49.5 + 5.0 + 20.5 tons = 75.0 tons (mass ratio 1.38)
49.5 + 4.0 + 21.5 tons = 75.0 tons (mass ratio 1.40)

According to the MSV series, the R-2 type has 18% more propellant than the R-1A. So if we divide the propellant by 1.18 and then add the weapons payload to it, we find that the difference between full and base weights for the R-1A type should be somewhere between 22.2 and 22.5 tons. Basically, whatever the precise breakdown between propellant and carried weapons, the specs for the R-1A type are pretty much locked in by those of the R-2 (or vice versa).

So what does this tell us about the R-1A? Basically, if its base weight is 61.8 tons, it really ought to have a full weight of 84 tons and a mass ratio of 1.24 to 1.28.


Now, the Gelgoog series. The notion that the standard Gelgoog has a base weight of 53.5 tons and a full weight of 73.3 tons actually works out really nicely! This fits in logically between the Gyan (base weight 52.7 tons, full weight 68.6 tons) and the original Dom (base weight 62.6 tons, full weight about 80 tons). Here are a few sample equipment/propellant breakdowns...

53.5 + 7.0 + 12.8 tons = 73.3 tons (mass ratio 1.21)
53.5 + 6.0 + 13.8 tons = 73.3 tons (mass ratio 1.23)
53.5 + 5.0 + 14.8 tons = 73.3 tons (mass ratio 1.25)

That's considerably less propellant than the MS-06R-2, and a few tons less than the R-1A, which helps explain why Zeon rushed out high mobility backpacks for this machine.

What about the B and C types? Well, if the B type has had its base weight cruelly stolen by the backpack-less A type, then we'd need all-new figures for it. One model might be the Gelgoog Marine; its base weight is 45.1 tons, exactly three tons more than the A type, and its full weight is 81.3 tons. If we bump that base weight up to 56.5 tons (three tons more than the A type's new weight) and keep the full weight unchanged, then it would have between 17.8 and 19.8 tons of propellant and a mass ratio of 1.28 to 1.32 in the three scenarios above.

One other consideration about the B and C types. The MSV-R specs for the MS-14BR and MS-14C-1A types are clearly based on these - the BR type has a base weight of 53.3 tons, slightly less than the B type, and the C-1A has a base weight of 56.2 tons, slightly more than the heavier weight given for the C type. But the C-1A can carry multiple backpacks - it's pictured with a cannon-less high mobility type, which can be swapped for a cannon type, apparently without affecting its base weight.

This suggests that the base weights of the B and C types, and their MSV-R variants, don't include the backpacks. That right there would explain why the A and B types have the same base weight!


-- Mark

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by toysdream » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:47 pm

Oh, and one more thing. If the base weight of the MS-14B doesn't include the backpack, then what are we to make of the rest of its specs? (Full weight 76.8 tons, thruster output 79,900 kg.)

Frankly, the notion that the MS-14B's backpack only added about 14 tons of thrust was always pretty fishy. I note, though, that this thrust total is exactly 30% greater than that of the standard MS-14A - the same increase that's attributed to Char's MS-06S Zaku II.

So I suggest that the specs we've been given for the MS-14B are in fact the specs for the backpack-less YMS-14 Gelgoog, aka the MS-14S, which has the customary 30% boost in thrust and an accompanying increase in propellant. Depending on the exact breakdown of equipment versus propellant, this looks like about a 25% increase in propellant capacity - almost enough to cover the increased thrust. In summary:

YMS-14 (MS-14S): base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 76.8 tons, thruster output 79,900 kg
MS-14A: base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 73.3 tons, thruster output 61,500 kg

Thus Char's Gelgoog stands in the exact same relation to the standard Gelgoog as Char's Zaku II to the standard Zaku II. Add the backpack and you get a modest increase in weight, with an even greater thrust increase.

-- Mark

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domtropen
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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by domtropen » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:44 am

Maybe they want some of MS-14C to be in the later batch related to MS-14F/FS, MS-14JG, MS-14J, and MS-14D (just like Mr. Gelgoog Jaeger's theory)?

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by toysdream » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:42 pm

That would work, yeah. According to the MSV series, the original batch of Gelgoog Cannons were based on the prototype YMS-14 units assigned to the Chimaira Corps, but they also prepared more than a hundred conversion kits for use by the mass-produced Gelgoog. So if the Gelgoog's specs change during the production process, so would those of the Cannon version.

This does, however, leave us with a gap in the "periodic table" of Gelgoog variants. If the full weight spec of 73.3 tons for the standard MS-14A Gelgoog is now associated with a heavier "early type" with a base weight of 53.5 tons, then what's the full weight of the lighter version? It can't also be 73.3 tons, or it would be heavier than its Gelgoog Cannon equivalent. Probably we should just take a cue from the MS Encyclopedia and reduce its full weight by the same amount the base weight is reduced, i.e. 11.4 tons.

Which gives us this:


Heavy MS-14A: base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 73.3 tons
Heavy MS-14C: base weight 55.8 tons, full weight 79.8 tons

Light MS-14A: base weight 42.1 tons, full weight 61.9 tons
Light MS-14C: base weight 44.5 tons, full weight 68.5 tons


Ta-dah! A fairly rational set of numbers, which only requires us to invent one new spec that hasn't already appeared in the Japanese publications. You'll note that the "light" specs for the MS-14A are 5-6 tons heavier than the Galbaldy Beta in both categories, so its equipment and propellant capacity are now fully compatible with the specs from Zeta Gundam.

This also enables us to nail down the weight of the Cannon pack. The "heavy" version ads 2.3 tons to the base weight and 6.5 tons to the full weight - so, if the equipment payload is unchanged, the backpack would hold 4.2 tons of propellant.

The "light" version adds 2.4 tons to base weight and 6.6 tons to full weight, but I'm sure we can come up with excuses for that 0.1 ton discrepancy. For example, maybe the mass-produced version doesn't include a full head swap. :-)

-- Mark

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by Homeless » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:53 pm

For fun, have you ever tried to calculate, percentage-wise, how much more this board cares about this issue than Sunrise does?
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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by toysdream » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:56 pm

I think I'd have to use exponential notation and measure the result in moles. :-)

-- Mark

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:59 pm

The percentage, it's over nine thousand!!!

...I had to :roll:
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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:02 am

By the way, do we know if there are two sets of stats for the MS-14G?

The ones in Mahq's profile, which supposeldy correspond to Visch Donahue's green unit, are basically the same as the MP version. In essence, the main difference between this G-type and a regular A-type is the replacement of the forearms jet thrusters with a gatling gun and a grenade launcher.

The other G-type would be the yellow and orange one from LWC, which besides having the same forearms weapons as the other version, also has a unique backpack, a small shield and a prototype beam rifle (quite similar to the one included in the MG kit of Gato's MS-14A).

Supposing that this unit did exist and that it was deployed sometime after the Battle of Odessa, but before the Battle of Jaburo (as indicated in the manga), meaning between middle and late November, we could assume that it is also based on the early heavy Gelgoog frame. In such case I wonder if this unit served as the prototype for later MS-14G, such as Visch's unit. If so, we could consider that the reason the later doesn't have a backpack is due to the reduced weight of the MPed models. A second possibility would be that the omission of the backpack was a cost reduction measure in order to ease up an eventual mass production, or rather mass conversion of A-types into G-types.

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:32 pm

Logically, you'd think the Ground Gelgoog would probably have its weight reduced a noticeable amount thanks to the removal of space-use gear. In practice though, it may not be all that much; the change between the F- and J-Type Zaku IIs is only about 2 tons overall.

And yeah, looking through the 2013 MS Encyclopedia, I found myself shaking my head at the critical errors and thinking that we could probably have done a better job ourselves. :P
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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by domtropen » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:00 pm

Gelgoog seems to be designed to be highly efficient in combat even in barebone form [with hybrid jet-rocket thrusters so it may not need that much fuel on the ground], so backpack is only for increase performance or such but not necessary.

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Re: Vintage MS Specs: 2013 Edition

Post by toysdream » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:05 pm

I don't think any source has ever bothered to provide unique specs for the G type Gelgoog. And it probably bears repeating that this whole business about "heavy early versions" and "light later versions" is just fan speculation. That said, Gelgoog Jager's suggestion about the different G types and the presence or absence of a backpack sounds pretty reasonable. :-)

I should note that, on a second look, the new MS Encyclopedia also lists the thruster output of the MS-14B (79,900 kg) for the YMS-14 and MS-14A versions as well. This means that, according to the book, the standard Gelgoog has exactly as much thrust as the B type and more than the C type - don't think about that one too hard! But hey, the fact that they're associating that thruster output with Char's YMS-14 kind of validates my new theory.

-- Mark

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