GM Lines....

[fire_lupine]

Reading something on /m/ sparked an idea in my head...Which GM is better overall?
Gm Kai Custom
Gm Quel
GM II

All 3 seem to have been used at the same time but why?

[RX-92]

I would think that the GM II would have the upper hand because it is the newer of the bunch so performance wise it would be at the peak. As to why the Kai and Quel are still in use, it could be that they are in the process of being phased out but there aren't enough replacement suits to fill all the gaps created by retiring the old suits

[fire_lupine]

Looking at stats tho...seems the GM Custom far outranks the GM II in all terms besides firepower and thats cause the GM II carries the Beam Pistol vs the GM Custom's GM Rifle/Bullpup Machinegun

[mcred23]

There are two reasons for that. The first is the GM Custom is supposed to be a high performance, limited production suit, so it having numbers higher than a base production model (Even one that came out a year or two later such as the GM II) wouldn't be too shocking. The other, totally out-of-universe reason, is you are looking at stats from two different series, and it's not uncommon for stats from one series to not fit in with the stats from another (Go look at what's listed for 0080 and then compare it to the other OYW works for the most infamous example of this), which makes using the stats to compare suits from different series somewhat problematic.

Also, the firepower argument isn't huge, as the beam rifle (The BOWA·BR-S-85-C2) used by the GM II was also known to be used by the GM Quel. The GM Custom presumably could use the same beam rifle quite easily, but in 0083 the rifle isn't in service yet (Going by the model number, I'd assume it doesn't come out until 0085, which would put it around the same time as the GM II), and machine guns do have a couple of advantages (Mainly rate of fire and being able to carry lots of ammo), which is why the bulk of Fed MS in 0083 carry one kind or another.

The only major advantage I would imagine the GM II having is its panoramic monitor giving its pilot better visibility, which could be a big advantage, but given that many GM II's are just upgraded versions of old GM models, I would imagine the Feds could similarly upgrade the Custom and Quel if they wanted to, which would negate that little perk of the GM II...

All 3 seem to have been used at the same time but why?

Different purposes and cost. The GM Custom is a high performance, limited production suit issued to special veterans and whatnot, so it's costly and never too widely used. The GM Quel is just a slightly tweaked Custom (With it's moveably frame-y arms being one of the main changes) developed for the Titans, so it too isn't widely produced or fielded (The Titans begin replacing it with the cheap and easy Hizack after less than a year). The GM II is the main unit of the Federation Forces, replacing the GM Kai, and unlike the other two, it is widely produced (Or upgraded from the older models) and deployed.

[fire_lupine]

That makes sense..also hated how the 0083 designs seemed to have vanished in Zeta...really love that the movies brought the GM Custom and GM Cannon II into the AEUG

[Angelo Sauper]

That makes sense..also hated how the 0083 designs seemed to have vanished in Zeta...

I don't think sunrise would have been able to cover the cost of time travel to include them in the original airing of Zeta.

[fire_lupine]

Well of course...i just mean...after 0083..you never seen them in ANYTHING

[AmuroNT1]

Well, the only UC productions made after 0083 were 08th MS Team (which is four years before it chronologically) and Unicorn, which DOES have stuff show up as part of an old-school MS love-fest.

[Strike Zero]

Well of course...i just mean...after 0083..you never seen them in ANYTHING

Such is a problem inherent in any OVAs set during or near the One Year War that make up new mobile suit designs (which is always a given, since there would be little point in Bandai making a new animated production if there weren't new model kits to plug along with it). They usually try to handwave the fact that you never see them later by claiming they were limited production models and not widely used or later phased out, as Red mentioned with the GM Custom.

I suppose it would have been possible to have a few appear in Unicorn amidst episode 4's epic mecha nostalgia trip but, given their status, their presence would have probably seemed too far out of left field.

[Calubin_175]

It is dumb, that's why we end up with 3 versions of one MS that serve the same purpose.

[yazi88]

But then again some things like 0080 does show some lineage from suits in Zeta, like the GM Sniper II sharing a very similar thruster design and beam saber as the Nemo from Zeta. I know that Mark has stated something among these terms before but I can't remember the thread for the life of me.

8th MS team also shows the prototype to the GM Kai in the 1st episode as well in the form of the type E.

[AmuroNT1]

The Master Grade manual for the Nemo is what confirms the lineage to the GM Sniper II.

As for the GM Type E, it's not actually the precursor to the GM Kai; the Japanese name for the model is simply "GM Pre-Production Type". It resembles the GM Kai because Katoki designed both machines.

[domino]

The GM II is definitely outclassed by the GM Custom & GM Quel. As mentioned in the above posts, the GM Custom was a very expensive machine with superior performance rivalling the RX-78-2 in some aspects. The reason why it wasn't mass-produced was due to its high cost to manufacture. The GM Quel is essentially a modified GM Custom for Titans use. This is also explained above.

Keep in mind that the GM II is only a moderate upgrade to the GM series and not a replacement for the GM Custom, GM Quel. It's more of an incremental upgrade from the GM and GM Kai.

It would be interesting to compare the GM Custom/Quel to the Nemo.......

[mcred23]

As for the GM Type E, it's not actually the precursor to the GM Kai; the Japanese name for the model is simply "GM Pre-Production Type". It resembles the GM Kai because Katoki designed both machines.

Uh... yes it is. The GM [E]/GM Kai's history has more than a few retcons in it, but the latest version, as Mark pointed out in this thread, is Luna II develops the RGM-79[E] Pre-Production Type, and subsequently produce the nearly identical RGM-79C GM Kai in pretty big numbers. Supposedly, it might be the second most common GM variant of the OYW, after the basic RGM-79's that were developed and cranked out by Jaburo.

[JEFFPIATT]

the diffrence between the quel and custom. have to do with the q type being optimized for Colonial use while the custom was more of an ace/data collection/general use unit built from the NT-1 project data. the Quel was ment to be an mainstay unit for the titans and since they were an rush to get them high end MS built in large numbers they used the N type frame and modified it to resemble the normal GM with upgraded arm units that later end up being expanded upon on the gundam MK II. the thruster layout of the Q was adopted for the GM II refit and it had to have some advantages for the titans to adopt the R type GM over upgrading Q types to an more modern spec.

[fire_lupine]

Some stats from MAHQ
Nemo has 1620 Kw of power, 64,000 kg of thrust
GM II has 1518 Kw of power, 62,000 kg of thrust
Gm Custom has 1420 Kw of power, 67,840 kg of thrust
Gm Sniper II has 1390 Kw of power, 101,000 kg of thrust
Gundam has 1380 Kw of power, 55,480 kg of thrust
Looking at these stats....it pretty much falls in line , the GM Sniper II's thrust...is alittle bothering...
Comparing the GM Custom and the Nemo, the Nemo has more power, more range, and much better armor (Gundarium Alpha vs Titanium/Ceramic)

[domino]

Please note that power rating is not a useful statistic since that comparison can fall out of whack when comparing between different series produced in different time periods. I believe that the GM II upgrade was mostly focused on allowing the GM to use a full-power beam rifle while also incorporating tech upgrades from the other fielded GM prototypes.

Despite these upgrades, for its day and time the GM II is little better than the original GM when compared to the more powerful prototype and limited production mobile suits being fielded during the war.

I don't think that only referred to the prototype MS fielded by AEUG & Zeon during the Gryps war.....

[mcred23]

Keep in mind official stats are full of holes. Mark has pointed out in some of his threads on MS specs (Two of which can be viewed here and here, and the subject probably came up in others) that series like Zeta and 0080 ignore the thrusters in the soles of MS feet, while 0083 apparently includes those but ignores others on some MS, among various similar oddities. As for the GM Sniper II, go look at the thrust numbers for the Alex, RX-77D, or Gelgoog Jäger and then compare them to similar models and they're similarly inflated.

Please note that power rating is not a useful statistic since that comparison can fall out of whack when comparing between different series produced in different time periods. I believe that the GM II upgrade was mostly focused on allowing the GM to use a full-power beam rifle while also incorporating tech upgrades from the other fielded GM prototypes.

The power output rating is one of those that isn't really as inconsistent as thruster or others, but it's flaw is that we have no idea how much of that power is actually available for weapons and how much is going to everything else that makes a mobile suit work. For the GM II, it's basically just an overall performance improvement over the previous units (The GM Kai and basic GM, both of which were five years old by then), with the prior lack of a beam rifle I think having been implied to be more due to cost/production time issues rather than prior GM's lacking the power to use them.

[J-Lead]

The GM II is definitely outclassed by the GM Custom & GM Quel. As mentioned in the above posts, the GM Custom was a very expensive machine with superior performance rivalling the RX-78-2 in some aspects. The reason why it wasn't mass-produced was due to its high cost to manufacture. The GM Quel is essentially a modified GM Custom for Titans use. This is also explained above.

Keep in mind that the GM II is only a moderate upgrade to the GM series and not a replacement for the GM Custom, GM Quel. It's more of an incremental upgrade from the GM and GM Kai.

Disregarding the listed stats, which seem to be mostly irrelevant these days anyway, I tend to actually adhere to this school of thought; that aside from the panoramic monitor and the enhanced mobility enabled by the movable frame, for the most part, the gap between high-end OYW and common Zeta Era tech isn't nearly as big as a lot of people tend to make it out to be. The RGM-79 GM was produced in absurdly large numbers during the OYW, and I can't imagine they were all left out of service with the shift to the RGM-79C GM Kai. I always got the idea that the GM II was only incrimentally better-performing than the GM Type C, by most implications, and was just a universal upgrade from the RGM-79 line, whereas the RGM-79C was a separate line altogether. As for why the Gm Kai was phased out; I imagine a lot of them were wiped out during the events of Operation Stardust, and with their numbers dwindling and the GM II so common now thanks to all the upgraded RGM-79 GMs and the newly produced units, they stopped making parts for the Kai and simply assigned it to backwater and rear-line roles, with the GM II taking it's place as the mainstay unit.

It would be interesting to compare the GM Custom/Quel to the Nemo.......

The Nemo seems to be kind of like a mass-produced, souped-up GM Sniper II, which is what it seems to be based on in a lot of ways.

So maybe on even, slightly superior footing to the RGM-79N/Q

[fire_lupine]

Well as I mentioned...the Nemo has far better range and far better armor then the Quel/Custom/Sniper II