Some talk in another topic lately had me springing to ask about certain things relating to the differences between mecha when generalized in an eastern and western sense. I know mecha classifications can go far beyond that but in terms of just general design sensibilities and whatnot, it seems like there are many key things that remain. I just wanted this board to be a good discussion board for the topic since there hasn't been any that I've seen so far on the site. However, before posting, keep this in mind:
This thread was made to:
- Discuss differences in terms of aesthetics, weapons, general sensibilities, and just all around design in general and the factors that go into WHY the culture treats things this way.
- Compare and contrast the mecha themselves, whether there were cross cultural influences with certain mecha, certain fusions between the two cultures, etc.
- Logical debate when necessary
This thread is not made to:
- Argue about the realism of giant mechanical behemoths on either cultural side
- Argue that one side is better than the other for whatever arbitrary reasoning set.
- Be used to insult others just because you happen to have a different view than they do.
With that out of the way, I will say I hope this can lead to some fun talk on the topic. Any topic can be up for grabs as long as it stays on topic, armaments, aesthetics, so forth. One topic I've been curious about is on the topic of how the mecha are treated between the two. I've noticed that, while a mecha may not have a literal personality, it seems more like with eastern mechs that even ones that are damaged more often that they are sort of treated as special or with more sentimentality to it, whereas with western mechs, they are typically discarded as soon as they are outdated, or are not really mourned over or worth anything but scrap after they are destroyed. They may recycle the parts but not to build the same mech over again. I was wondering if I was wrong in this assumption or if this does seem like an actual difference in sensibilities, whether or not there is a sort of soul or love to the machine. It seems a bit weird because I do know multiple westerners that treat their cars and computers and stuff with this kind of respect for it, but western media with mass produced mecha never really puts too much sentimentality in them it seems.
Eastern and Western Mecha
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Wow, its hard to consider westernize mecha, as most are hugely influenced by Japaneses mecha, but I have seen a lot of originality in Deviant Art and the Concept Robots blog. Another thing to consider, is time-frame. As time moves on, so do the tastes and aesthetics of each side.
With general aesthetics, I notice eastern mecha traditionally have human-like mecha with light and primary colors for the good guys, and monstrous-looking mecha with dark and secondary colors for the bad guys. Although, times have changed this, with grittier fiction. Western fiction tends to cast mecha as machinery, then an extension of the pilot, so western mecha tend to have a purely robotic look, with largely utilitarian colors - ether in camouflage for combat models, or yellow with caution stripes for work models. Eastern fictions like to make a few powerful super-mecha (given to the hero and arch-villein) along with cheaper (expendable) grunt models, while western fictions like to give everyone grunt models (with heroes rely more on their luck and skills, then no their high-tech toys).
In the past, energy weapons were the default direct-fire weapons used by mecha on both sides of the ocean, that was changed over time. In the east, the influence of Gundam and the "real robot" craze in the '80s made ballistic weapons more popular. The west was slow to embrace ballistic weapons as a high-tech option, but Aliens (movie) changed everyone's opinion about them. Regardless of the era, missiles remains the the most popular indirect-fire weapons, on both sides. Melee weapons seem to be much more popular in the east, where in the wast, its seen as a silly concept.
More recently, its been more about mecha agility. In the past, both sides seen mecha like big, lumbering ground-pounders. There have been quite a number a agile mecha from Japan, like the Valkyrie fighters, Evas and Gundam Heavy-Arms. In the west, most people figured that mecha where only big and clumsy, until the advent of Transformers the movie. The heavy mecha seems to be modeled like a person in a bulky bomb suit, while an agile mecha seems to be modeled like an unencumbered person - if not an outright acrobat!
As for "realistic designs," even series that strides for realism - regardless of side - like to handwave physics like Jayne Cobb in his bunk. Considering the strange nature of giant piloted humanoid robots, this cant be avoided.
Taste seems to vary greatly. In Japan, mecha have become so ubiquitous, they stick them into EVERYTHING! They manage to stick them into nearly every genre, and beyond! They dont care where they put them! In the west, folks seem to prefer military-theme fiction, with a good degree of believability. Folks are getting into steam-punk mecha, but fantasy mecha is still something a lot of people still reject.
Heroic anime pilots tend to be young and mopy, and Japanese fans seem to identify with them. Our heroic pilots tend to be, like any hero, are what we idealize as being - cocky, cleaver, good looking, and just young enough, without being too young.
Stuff like this, is might be the reason why the 08th MS Team is so popular in the west - its got the elements we identify to most with - where something like G-Gundam is seen as something.... Odd.
With general aesthetics, I notice eastern mecha traditionally have human-like mecha with light and primary colors for the good guys, and monstrous-looking mecha with dark and secondary colors for the bad guys. Although, times have changed this, with grittier fiction. Western fiction tends to cast mecha as machinery, then an extension of the pilot, so western mecha tend to have a purely robotic look, with largely utilitarian colors - ether in camouflage for combat models, or yellow with caution stripes for work models. Eastern fictions like to make a few powerful super-mecha (given to the hero and arch-villein) along with cheaper (expendable) grunt models, while western fictions like to give everyone grunt models (with heroes rely more on their luck and skills, then no their high-tech toys).
In the past, energy weapons were the default direct-fire weapons used by mecha on both sides of the ocean, that was changed over time. In the east, the influence of Gundam and the "real robot" craze in the '80s made ballistic weapons more popular. The west was slow to embrace ballistic weapons as a high-tech option, but Aliens (movie) changed everyone's opinion about them. Regardless of the era, missiles remains the the most popular indirect-fire weapons, on both sides. Melee weapons seem to be much more popular in the east, where in the wast, its seen as a silly concept.
More recently, its been more about mecha agility. In the past, both sides seen mecha like big, lumbering ground-pounders. There have been quite a number a agile mecha from Japan, like the Valkyrie fighters, Evas and Gundam Heavy-Arms. In the west, most people figured that mecha where only big and clumsy, until the advent of Transformers the movie. The heavy mecha seems to be modeled like a person in a bulky bomb suit, while an agile mecha seems to be modeled like an unencumbered person - if not an outright acrobat!
As for "realistic designs," even series that strides for realism - regardless of side - like to handwave physics like Jayne Cobb in his bunk. Considering the strange nature of giant piloted humanoid robots, this cant be avoided.
Taste seems to vary greatly. In Japan, mecha have become so ubiquitous, they stick them into EVERYTHING! They manage to stick them into nearly every genre, and beyond! They dont care where they put them! In the west, folks seem to prefer military-theme fiction, with a good degree of believability. Folks are getting into steam-punk mecha, but fantasy mecha is still something a lot of people still reject.
Heroic anime pilots tend to be young and mopy, and Japanese fans seem to identify with them. Our heroic pilots tend to be, like any hero, are what we idealize as being - cocky, cleaver, good looking, and just young enough, without being too young.
Stuff like this, is might be the reason why the 08th MS Team is so popular in the west - its got the elements we identify to most with - where something like G-Gundam is seen as something.... Odd.
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
For me, when I think of western mecha, I typically think of the Battletech series. Rather large, slow, lumbering machines. They avoid actually having manipulators, unless they are very clawlike. Transformers is somewhat an exception to this rule.
Most of the time when I hear commentators talk about mecha they typically also go with that whole fast/slow idea of east and west. With Eastern mechs, even ones that seem to be designed with a more 'realistic' or tanky tone, they always seem to be faster, while in battletech, even the faster mechs, they like adding this sense of 'weight' to the robot. Though again, transformers is a bit of an exception. However, at the same time when transformers needed speed, they'd typically transform rather than remain in robot form. An upcoming game, Hawken, the dev basically said to Totalbiscuit (youtube personality) that they were inspied with western aesthetics and eastern mecha speed.
The taste in protagonists are definitely something noticeable as well. I can't name how many times I've heard such hate for a show all stem from the main character being 'whiny' or angsty with mecha (Though sometimes the complaint extends to anime in general). It's sometimes jarring when the show stars a kid, a person who will most likely indeed have such attitudes when forced into a situation they don't want to be in.
Ballistics are becoming more prominent, but beyond missiles, I don't think they are shown in nearly as much of a practical light, on both sides. Machine gun weapons are never really too powerful, even though they could easily have been fit with penetrative rounds or other things that would actually make them pretty deadly. Like I brought up in an earlier topic as well, I am surprised at the focus on energy weapons when even in the modern day, we have rather powerful ballistic weapons in development, like railguns, certain types of rounds for weapons, and just things that put the dinky machine guns they tend to show to shame. Again, this does vary on series and some things do show machine guns in a proper light, but they can sometimes relegated to the gun that makes tink noises against armor.
Most of the time when I hear commentators talk about mecha they typically also go with that whole fast/slow idea of east and west. With Eastern mechs, even ones that seem to be designed with a more 'realistic' or tanky tone, they always seem to be faster, while in battletech, even the faster mechs, they like adding this sense of 'weight' to the robot. Though again, transformers is a bit of an exception. However, at the same time when transformers needed speed, they'd typically transform rather than remain in robot form. An upcoming game, Hawken, the dev basically said to Totalbiscuit (youtube personality) that they were inspied with western aesthetics and eastern mecha speed.
The taste in protagonists are definitely something noticeable as well. I can't name how many times I've heard such hate for a show all stem from the main character being 'whiny' or angsty with mecha (Though sometimes the complaint extends to anime in general). It's sometimes jarring when the show stars a kid, a person who will most likely indeed have such attitudes when forced into a situation they don't want to be in.
Ballistics are becoming more prominent, but beyond missiles, I don't think they are shown in nearly as much of a practical light, on both sides. Machine gun weapons are never really too powerful, even though they could easily have been fit with penetrative rounds or other things that would actually make them pretty deadly. Like I brought up in an earlier topic as well, I am surprised at the focus on energy weapons when even in the modern day, we have rather powerful ballistic weapons in development, like railguns, certain types of rounds for weapons, and just things that put the dinky machine guns they tend to show to shame. Again, this does vary on series and some things do show machine guns in a proper light, but they can sometimes relegated to the gun that makes tink noises against armor.
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
The irony with Battletech, is that they are portrayed as slow, lumbering machines, but in the Hero Games notes form the old rule booklet notes that that the pilot can move their battlemech like an extension of their own body:
"MechWarriors wear neural-impulse helmets connected to sophisticated computers. The helmet channels sensory information from the Battlemech directly to the pilot; converting raw data on posture, movement, balance, and speed into neural impulses for the human brain. At the same time, the helmet and its linked computer translate impulses from the MechWarrior's brain into movement and combat commands for the 'Mech. In a sense, while wearing the helmet, the MechWarrior controls the 'Mech as if it were his or her own body."
But it was the '80s, where giant robots were clunky and everyone in the early 31st century looked like trailer trash.
Although, to be fair, the 'Mechs in that era were 200+ year old family heirlooms, that have been subjected to countless impromptu battlefield repairs (myomer transplants, copper wire in place of fiber-optics, and so on), and with limits to available technology, do to the fact that the Succession Wars knocked the Inner Sphere back into the stone age. So they would not be at their peak.
"MechWarriors wear neural-impulse helmets connected to sophisticated computers. The helmet channels sensory information from the Battlemech directly to the pilot; converting raw data on posture, movement, balance, and speed into neural impulses for the human brain. At the same time, the helmet and its linked computer translate impulses from the MechWarrior's brain into movement and combat commands for the 'Mech. In a sense, while wearing the helmet, the MechWarrior controls the 'Mech as if it were his or her own body."
But it was the '80s, where giant robots were clunky and everyone in the early 31st century looked like trailer trash.
Although, to be fair, the 'Mechs in that era were 200+ year old family heirlooms, that have been subjected to countless impromptu battlefield repairs (myomer transplants, copper wire in place of fiber-optics, and so on), and with limits to available technology, do to the fact that the Succession Wars knocked the Inner Sphere back into the stone age. So they would not be at their peak.-
Kuruni
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
From a non-western person, the first thing that pop in my mind when I heard the word is AT-AT (not much of Battletech/Mech Warrior, partly because TRPG is obscure here, and partly for fact that good number of early designs are from Macross/Dougram.). I think the charm of AT-AT and its derived designs (like C&C Mastodon) is that they're tactical weapon, intend to work with support from other unit.
At this point, only general purpose western mech I like are those from Dragonmech. But they get bonus point for being clever steampunk/magitek designs.
At this point, only general purpose western mech I like are those from Dragonmech. But they get bonus point for being clever steampunk/magitek designs.
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Agree with everything here. Eastern mechs tend to portray humanoid forms, almost to the point of making them heroic or deity like, and the designs as arts that fit the ideas of such. Western mechs tend to portray them simply as machines and vehicles and tend to be designed as such: vehicles with moving support structures (legs, caterpillars) and moving action structures (hand manipulators).
Eastern robots, to support the heroic/deity motifs, sport swords, rifles, and shields held by fingered hands, where as in west the weapons are mostly mounted on the vehicles a la tanks.
Transformers are derived from easter works, so it doesn't really apply to western aesthetic.
Also the west tends to think that robots are mostly suitable for ground battles, space battles are mostly for "mobile armors" type things (space fighters, frigates, battle ships, mother ships, death stars) and not for humanoid robots.
I would probably love modern Battlestar Galactica more if the Cylon, with their humanoid aesthetics, also sport humanoid looking vehicles. Probably something Zaku or Gouf like.
Eastern robots, to support the heroic/deity motifs, sport swords, rifles, and shields held by fingered hands, where as in west the weapons are mostly mounted on the vehicles a la tanks.
Transformers are derived from easter works, so it doesn't really apply to western aesthetic.
Also the west tends to think that robots are mostly suitable for ground battles, space battles are mostly for "mobile armors" type things (space fighters, frigates, battle ships, mother ships, death stars) and not for humanoid robots.
I would probably love modern Battlestar Galactica more if the Cylon, with their humanoid aesthetics, also sport humanoid looking vehicles. Probably something Zaku or Gouf like.
Visit The Dreams
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
What about the Tripods? Some (or maybe many, not sure) consider it the father of all mechs.
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Kuruni
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
For Tripod, AKA Martian Fighting Machines, the only version that impress me is one on illustration of Jeff Wayne's musical. Not the most practical design, but love that mosquito-like face.
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neolordmaxwell
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Battlemechs are derived from earlier works too, technically. All of the original battletech mechs were copies of mechs used (with permission at the time supposedly) from Macross, Dougram, and I think Crusher Joe. The newer ones are original designs but most are still originally based on and influenced by the earliest ones. And of course the original transformers are all based on old Diaclone and Microman toys... along with the odd licensed mold from Macross, Dorvack, etc.
Honestly, this is where I feel eastern/western mech debates break down- they don't exist in a vacuum, and each influences the other (although I'd say 'eastern mech' has had more of a considerably influence on 'western mechs' where they appear).
It's kind of like arguing real robot vs. super robot, there's so much overlap and it's tough to really make a call sometimes.
Honestly, this is where I feel eastern/western mech debates break down- they don't exist in a vacuum, and each influences the other (although I'd say 'eastern mech' has had more of a considerably influence on 'western mechs' where they appear).
It's kind of like arguing real robot vs. super robot, there's so much overlap and it's tough to really make a call sometimes.
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
The interesting thing on battletech, is that while compared to say typical Anime mecha is described as slow and lumbering (and is some times references this when talking about it self). Is that in fact that Battleemchs are in fact not that slow and not very sluggish at all.
For example any battlemech that can reach 15 hexes per turn (one way or another, I.e. via Running, MASC, or even "piloting" mods), can effectively pace the RX-78-2 Gundam* which as a top speed of around 165kph. And theirs mechs that can run down a speeding Dom, and can even give a Dom tropen a run for it's money.
This would be the Locust 6M with a standard running speed of roughly 227kph, with it's MASC engaged it can reach 302kph, you can have it sprint while MASC is engaged and it can move at 378kph. However even that is not the fastest it can go, give the pilot the Speed demon perk (found in the RPG) and you can add 2 MPs (movement points) to that speed, and allow the unit to connect to a active Navigation satellite can add an extra MP, for a top speed of 38MPs or 410kph...
And the iconic Timberwolf can easily reach 119kph via sprinting and a active nav satellite.
Now I do not know about you guys I would not call units that can easily brake 120kph slow...
Now a battlemech is not as agile as say a mobile suit and to a large degree that is largely true, however Handstands and other acrobatic like feats are not unheard of in the novels, particularly with experienced pilots.
* An amusing fact is that theirs a unit in battletech that shares the RX-78 designation, in B-tech it's the Fox Class Corvette.
For example any battlemech that can reach 15 hexes per turn (one way or another, I.e. via Running, MASC, or even "piloting" mods), can effectively pace the RX-78-2 Gundam* which as a top speed of around 165kph. And theirs mechs that can run down a speeding Dom, and can even give a Dom tropen a run for it's money.
This would be the Locust 6M with a standard running speed of roughly 227kph, with it's MASC engaged it can reach 302kph, you can have it sprint while MASC is engaged and it can move at 378kph. However even that is not the fastest it can go, give the pilot the Speed demon perk (found in the RPG) and you can add 2 MPs (movement points) to that speed, and allow the unit to connect to a active Navigation satellite can add an extra MP, for a top speed of 38MPs or 410kph...
And the iconic Timberwolf can easily reach 119kph via sprinting and a active nav satellite.
Now I do not know about you guys I would not call units that can easily brake 120kph slow...
Now a battlemech is not as agile as say a mobile suit and to a large degree that is largely true, however Handstands and other acrobatic like feats are not unheard of in the novels, particularly with experienced pilots.
* An amusing fact is that theirs a unit in battletech that shares the RX-78 designation, in B-tech it's the Fox Class Corvette.
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
I did my final university paper on the identity of Japanese mecha (got a rather good grade for it, too). One thing I remember putting in was a quote from Yutaka Izubuchi where he said "When you put a face on a machine, it becomes a character". I think that sums up the divide nicely. The RX-78-2 Gundam might be a lifeless machine that needs a pilot but that samurai inspired head gives it a recogniseable humanity and when it goes down at the hands (or rather mouth) of the Zeong, it feels like yet another fallen soldier rather than just a wrecked machine.
In contrast Western mech designs seem to actively go against this and frequently amount to a tank on legs. I think the realism debate does effect this. When you look at the flexibility of something like a mobile suit, I'm always reminded of the HG Fighting Action Endless Waltz kits that had secondary torsos in poses a human body can pull off but a machine couldn't. There's something more fantastical and asking for audience disbelief about humanoid mecha soldiers whilst Western ones are basically a box on intentionally awkward limbs. They feel more realistic because they line up more with the robotics technology that already exists. Personally I have my favourites from both camps.
In contrast Western mech designs seem to actively go against this and frequently amount to a tank on legs. I think the realism debate does effect this. When you look at the flexibility of something like a mobile suit, I'm always reminded of the HG Fighting Action Endless Waltz kits that had secondary torsos in poses a human body can pull off but a machine couldn't. There's something more fantastical and asking for audience disbelief about humanoid mecha soldiers whilst Western ones are basically a box on intentionally awkward limbs. They feel more realistic because they line up more with the robotics technology that already exists. Personally I have my favourites from both camps.
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tHeWasTeDYouTh
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
very easy, Western Mechs are made to look like modern combat vehicles. Lot of weapons and not humanoid looking
Eastern mech, just look at Gundam
Eastern mech, just look at Gundam
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Kuruni
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Good example of how you will miss some point when you try to simplified thing too much, think it would sound cool when you say "very easy", only to make critical fumble and look exactly opposite.tHeWasTeDYouTh wrote:very easy, Western Mechs are made to look like modern combat vehicles. Lot of weapons and not humanoid looking
That, or give me a reason why BattleTech's Atlas doesn't count as western mecha.
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
If it was eastern, it would most likely be the "big evil dragon" mecha a protagonist would have to face before dealing with the primary antagonist. It is huge (by Battletech standards), heavily armed, and sports a menacing skull-face. Think Big Zam form Gundam, or Mecha Beast Fighter Galra form Beast King GoLion.Kuruni wrote:That, or give me a reason why BattleTech's Atlas doesn't count as western mecha.
Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Umm... Kuruni's statement was in response to tHeWasTeDYouTh's assertion that western mecha are not humanoid.Malcadon wrote:If it was eastern, it would most likely be the "big evil dragon" mecha a protagonist would have to face before dealing with the primary antagonist. It is huge (by Battletech standards), heavily armed, and sports a menacing skull-face. Think Big Zam form Gundam, or Mecha Beast Fighter Galra form Beast King GoLion.
The Atlas (not to mention a large swath of MW mechs) is clearly humanoid, add to that the fact that the east has plenty of non-humanoid mecha designs and the whole premise kinda fails on its face.
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
I have to agree with thewastedyouth, it may not be *simple*, per se, but a lot of the time the American/Western emphasis is on strength rather than dexterity. That lends itself to more machine-like fighters rather than humanoid/animalistic ones
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Kuruni
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
I guess you mean vehicle-like, you look like machine as long as you're machine.
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
But then you run into Heavy Gear, and suddenly all bets are off again.MechLife wrote:I have to agree with thewastedyouth, it may not be *simple*, per se, but a lot of the time the American/Western emphasis is on strength rather than dexterity. That lends itself to more machine-like fighters rather than humanoid/animalistic ones
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HalfDemonInuyasha
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
With Western Mechs, they definitely come off far more like "walking tanks" than anything else; usually pretty bulky due to armor (so less streamlined at times), a more blocky shape (thus more stiff movements usually), and so on. While the description is also used for MS under gravity in Gundam, they still have FAR greater range of movement and mobility than what I've seen in Western Mechs. Actually, the AT-AT fits the description well as it comes off like a heavy tank supporting infantry and such; heavily armed and armored, but ponderously slow compared to lighter things like the AT-ST or AT-PT and such.
Depending on which ones, they also don't always come off as that big either; MS in Gundam series' ranging from 10 - 25 meters (32.8 ft - 82 ft tall, not counting giant MS) while various Western Mechs can be as small as 2-3 grown men to various ranges taller.
Depending on which ones, they also don't always come off as that big either; MS in Gundam series' ranging from 10 - 25 meters (32.8 ft - 82 ft tall, not counting giant MS) while various Western Mechs can be as small as 2-3 grown men to various ranges taller.
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Kuruni
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Re: Eastern and Western Mecha
Size never has anything to do with this. Zwerg is only 2.912 meters tall. And Garland is just 3.85. In contrast, Dragonmech feature city-mech range from 365.8 meters Nedderpik to 609.6 meters Tannanliel.
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