Dober Gun

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CloudFF7
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Dober Gun

Post by CloudFF7 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:25 pm

Well it's been debated by many for years, but latest chapter of Glory of Loser, finally confirms that a beam type Dober Gun does exist. In chapter 24, it showed that it has high enough output to deflect/cancel out a blast from Wing Gundam's Buster Rifle.

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balofo
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by balofo » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:41 pm

CloudFF7 wrote:Well it's been debated by many for years, but latest chapter of Glory of Loser, finally confirms that a beam type Dober Gun does exist. In chapter 24, it showed that it has high enough output to deflect/cancel out a blast from Wing Gundam's Buster Rifle.
It was a solid round. The muzzle smoke has been consistent in GOL. I'm not touching the TV series with a 10 feet pole...

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AmuroNT1
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:59 pm

The Gundam Wing MS Encyclopedia says that Tallgeese's dobergun is beam but the Leo's is solid. In a meta sense, they were just being lazy with the animation (making it so they could use the same clip for beams and solid shots) and ended up having to cover their asses later. Kind of like all the junk with the Kessel Run in Star Wars.

EDIT: If you want the exact text...

Tallgeese: "Thanks to its long barrel and beam firing speed, it can shoot accurately even at long distances. The Leo wields long-range weapons of the same type, but with subtle differences in form."

Leo: "The same type of long-range weapon equipped by the Tallgeese. It's the only weapon in the Leo's arsenal capable of damaging a Gundanium-armored MS."
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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:35 pm

the beam type dober gun was supposedly what the Tallgeese II had. the original model used an shell fireing model. the Leo had the same gund but had issues staying upright while firing it.

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AmuroNT1
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:25 pm

Look, the information about the dobergun has been really inconsistent over the years, a fact not at all aided by the animation sometimes showing a visible shell and smoke trail and other times just showing a wide yellow "beam" (that some tried to claim was a railcannon slug). It's not like this is all that rare; heck, during Operation Nova, there's a scene where one Leo's shoulder cannons (which have ALWAYS been called beam cannons) fire what look like missiles at another Leo.
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balofo
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by balofo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:08 pm

a bit off topic: G Gen Overworld has the Hydra Gundam firing a beam from its mouth in Zeong Mode. There's a open mouth in the design, so it kinda makes some sense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvYjiZ1H9SY&feature=plcp

And I thought I had seen everything...

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Mu La Flaga
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Mu La Flaga » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:44 am

You know I've always pondered this as an idea to kind of explain the Dober Gun issue.
You don't suppose it has 2 firing mode configurations?
Where in normal it has shells in a clip, but it can also fire charged energy blasts?

That is just my theory though, take it however you will...:P

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Arsarcana
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Arsarcana » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:21 pm

The Vs. games went that route by giving it a standard shell-firing mode and making one of its special attacks a beam. If you want to pretend the entire thing was intentional and not after the fact rationalizations for careless animation, sure, why not? For the next trick, figuring out how Deathscythe (Hell) and Altron can magically shrink their weapons to the storage mode sizes that we see. "They borrowed the technology from a passing Minbari" will not be accepted as an answer.

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Newtype87
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Newtype87 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:39 pm

Arsarcana wrote:The Vs. games went that route by giving it a standard shell-firing mode and making one of its special attacks a beam. If you want to pretend the entire thing was intentional and not after the fact rationalizations for careless animation, sure, why not? For the next trick, figuring out how Deathscythe (Hell) and Altron can magically shrink their weapons to the storage mode sizes that we see. "They borrowed the technology from a passing Minbari" will not be accepted as an answer.
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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:52 pm

I hate to say this but wing was post G gundam and stuck to giving out Trading card style stats making the OZ-06MS Leo the base spec. sunrise did not print fully fleshed out tech specs for an series until seed came out. they seemed to flesh some of it out once wing gained traction world wide. the dober gun on the oz-00ms was shell fireing on earth it seemed to switch to beams once the space arc started. witch fits with the rest of the AC era where the msin space exclusively use beam wepions until EW.

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AmuroNT1
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:18 pm

Arsarcana: I don't think the idea of the beam scythe and trident having telescoping handles is that unreasonable; maybe they shrink down just a little too much, but for the most part it's not that bad.

Also, I own Gundam vs Gundam Next Plus, and I can confirm that they treated the dobergun as a beam weapon the whole time; I was able to confirm this thanks to the Akatsuki's Yata-no-Kagami.

I gotta be honest, guys, I don't think we'll ever know for certain what the real intent was behind the dobergun's design. We can come up with explanations like "It's meant to use shells AND beams!" until the cows come home, but unless somebody can grab us Hajime Katoki and ask him point-blank, we'll just keep debating in circles.
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Xenosynth
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Xenosynth » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:35 pm

While the real intent of the dobergun was probably just to be one or the other and was screwed due to inconsistent animation, I also agree with the dual mode theory, though that is because of G Gen games where it has both as an attack, Dobergun, and Dobergun (Beam). They do the same damage value but of course it's more strategic since you can bypass an I-Field or Phase-Shift armor with one or the other.

Though I agree with AmuroNT1, I am pretty sure there are no OFFICIAL explanations from bandai on the issue, and we probably won't get any given Wing's age now.

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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:16 pm

I've always rationalised it away as a question of costs:

Tallgeese is designed with a beam dobergun; as part of the general downscaling from Tallgeese to Leo, one of the casualties is the beam dobergun, which is turned into a shell-firing weapon in the Leo version.

Later, when the large-scale production of beam rifles for later Leo models (Space Leo in particular) reduces costs, the beam dobergun goes into limited production. Tallgeese, when reactivated in AC 195, uses both, depending on what Zechs feels is most mission-appropriate.

That way, more or less all bases are covered, from what I remember of Wing. I'm taking the cost angle on the basis that the Leo Early Types we see in Colonel Bunto's forces in China all use shell-firing weapons, as do basically non-MS vehicles on Earth; from there I'm assuming that the cost of manufacturing beam weapons was much higher prior to the point (presumably in the AC 180's) when the Alliance started mass-producing beam rifles for the Leo and Space Leo.

Maybe not a perfect fix, but it's how I handwave the situation away :roll:
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balofo
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by balofo » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:31 pm

I guess it was always meant to be shell firing but the lazy animators forgot about it. GOL has been consistent on this, let's wait 3 years for when Tallgeese II appears in the manga and see its version of the Dobergun, or even sooner when Zechs battles Virgos in space in 2 years

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Mu La Flaga
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Mu La Flaga » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:44 am

AmuroNT1 wrote:Arsarcana: I don't think the idea of the beam scythe and trident having telescoping handles is that unreasonable; maybe they shrink down just a little too much, but for the most part it's not that bad.

Also, I own Gundam vs Gundam Next Plus, and I can confirm that they treated the dobergun as a beam weapon the whole time; I was able to confirm this thanks to the Akatsuki's Yata-no-Kagami.

I gotta be honest, guys, I don't think we'll ever know for certain what the real intent was behind the dobergun's design. We can come up with explanations like "It's meant to use shells AND beams!" until the cows come home, but unless somebody can grab us Hajime Katoki and ask him point-blank, we'll just keep debating in circles.
Amuro I just want to say in fairness treating a Gundam vs entry game's engine as a basis for a theory is not really all that good an idea man, seriously :P
(No offense)
It's along the same lines of other crazy things can do in the game also at times.

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Red Comet90
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Red Comet90 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:58 pm

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:I've always rationalised it away as a question of costs:

Tallgeese is designed with a beam dobergun; as part of the general downscaling from Tallgeese to Leo, one of the casualties is the beam dobergun, which is turned into a shell-firing weapon in the Leo version.

Later, when the large-scale production of beam rifles for later Leo models (Space Leo in particular) reduces costs, the beam dobergun goes into limited production. Tallgeese, when reactivated in AC 195, uses both, depending on what Zechs feels is most mission-appropriate.

That way, more or less all bases are covered, from what I remember of Wing. I'm taking the cost angle on the basis that the Leo Early Types we see in Colonel Bunto's forces in China all use shell-firing weapons, as do basically non-MS vehicles on Earth; from there I'm assuming that the cost of manufacturing beam weapons was much higher prior to the point (presumably in the AC 180's) when the Alliance started mass-producing beam rifles for the Leo and Space Leo.

Maybe not a perfect fix, but it's how I handwave the situation away :roll:
I actually rather like this explanation because it explains why the same Mobile Suit has the same weapon fire in completely different ways. The only possible hole I could think of is if they show the Tallgeese firing the same weapon twice in the same episode and it fires in two different ways.
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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:07 pm

well the issue with using an game engine to prove tech spec details is the fact that most fighting games give units an special attack. the buster rifle in most game has an normal beam rifle mode and the second trigger is the cannon in show BFG attack. towards the space arc in wing almost every unit switched to beam guns the dober gun was animated as an beam sniper rifle but that is an error gone cannon.

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AmuroNT1
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by AmuroNT1 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:31 pm

Mu la Flaga: I wasn't the one who brought up the Vs Series, that was Arsarcana; I was simply responding. Besides, even within the video games there's inconsistencies. In G Generation all doberguns (TG, TG2, Leo) are solid, and SRW flip-flops (TG1's is solid in Z2, but TG2's is beam in D).

JEFFPIATT: I have to correct you on several points there.
-The buster rifle has always been said to have variable output; it just doesn't fire any shots on the level of a standard beam rifle because it ISN'T on the level of a standard beam rifle. I'm pretty sure the "normal power shot" is the one we see a couple of times that almost looks like a Hadoken. Besides, they tend not to bother with this in any of Wing's few video game appearances, in favor of just giving it the high-output beam. I think Super Robot Wars Z2 is the first time they ever distinguished.
-The MS in the final story arc simply used their standard beam rifles, which they had from day one.
-I don't know why you think Tallgeese II's dobergun was depicted as a beam sniper rifle. To my knowledge, we've only seen beam sniper rifles in animation three times (08MST's GM Sniper, 00's Dynames family, and the Zaku I Sniper in Unicorn), and in all three cases it's depicted as a very thin, tightly focused beam. Tallgeese II's, by contrast, is animated as if it were a high-power beam cannon.
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Xenosynth » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:23 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:Mu la Flaga: I wasn't the one who brought up the Vs Series, that was Arsarcana; I was simply responding. Besides, even within the video games there's inconsistencies. In G Generation all doberguns (TG, TG2, Leo) are solid, and SRW flip-flops (TG1's is solid in Z2, but TG2's is beam in D).

JEFFPIATT: I have to correct you on several points there.
-The buster rifle has always been said to have variable output; it just doesn't fire any shots on the level of a standard beam rifle because it ISN'T on the level of a standard beam rifle. I'm pretty sure the "normal power shot" is the one we see a couple of times that almost looks like a Hadoken. Besides, they tend not to bother with this in any of Wing's few video game appearances, in favor of just giving it the high-output beam. I think Super Robot Wars Z2 is the first time they ever distinguished.
-The MS in the final story arc simply used their standard beam rifles, which they had from day one.
-I don't know why you think Tallgeese II's dobergun was depicted as a beam sniper rifle. To my knowledge, we've only seen beam sniper rifles in animation three times (08MST's GM Sniper, 00's Dynames family, and the Zaku I Sniper in Unicorn), and in all three cases it's depicted as a very thin, tightly focused beam. Tallgeese II's, by contrast, is animated as if it were a high-power beam cannon.
Slightly incorrect about G Generation. G Gen Overworld, the Tallgeese I and II as well as the Aquarius have a dobergun that can use either a solid or a beam shot as I said in an earlier post xD But I guess that's further proof they flip flop what it can do.

Both shots do the same damage just with a different type of attack. The Dobergun solid round attack is just called Dobergun, and then there is also a Dobergun (Beam) option.

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Geoxile
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Re: Dober Gun

Post by Geoxile » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:54 pm

I'm going to necro this rather than start a new topic, since this isn't even particularly old.

Since the new MG Tallgeese was released, does the MG guide say anything official about the Tallgeese's dobergun?

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