Katoki and his influence?

[AmuroNT1]

So you're another guy who refuse to acknowledge existence of Osamu-sama?

Of course, meaning no disrespect to Tezuka (or Yokoyama, for that matter), but I don't think of them as mechanical designers so much as simply being creators. I mean, Tomino himself did rough sketches of some of the MS early on, but he never gets any credit (maybe because we don't know exactly which ones he did). Okawara was one of the first people whose PRIMARY job was just designing the robots and ships and gear, so he gets the credit.

[Mythgarr]

Also one thing that I observe, is that Katoki's designs usually don' stray far from model proportion human anatomy added with little bits here and there that feels like add on, and he seems to be afraid to add contrasting parts. Case in point in unicorn: Unicorn itself, Sinanju. Clean designs, humanoid, add ons are just rocket parts and weapons.

While Okawara seems able to stray from thinness freely and he doesn't fear adding unusual decorations on his Gundam designs: Wing's chest vents, Shen Long's elongated arms, SEED's druggy trio's Gundams.

Well, that's my observations anyway. I wonder what would happen if Okawara were to redesign's AGE's Gundams. I can's see AGE-2 being thinner. More detailed lines probably.

[Strike Zero]

Except Katoki wasn't the one who designed the AGE—2. And to say that Katoki only knows how to design basic humanoid forms and never strays toward the unusual... Is that the Devil Gundam I hear laughing? I think it is.

[Mythgarr]

Except Katoki wasn't the one who designed the AGE—2. And to say that Katoki only knows how to design basic humanoid forms and never strays toward the unusual... Is that the Devil Gundam I hear laughing? I think it is.

Yeah, it's unusual, alright, and strangely blocky. Alter it slightly, and it may fit in UC..

[Geoxile]

Also one thing that I observe, is that Katoki's designs usually don' stray far from model proportion human anatomy added with little bits here and there that feels like add on, and he seems to be afraid to add contrasting parts. Case in point in unicorn: Unicorn itself, Sinanju. Clean designs, humanoid, add ons are just rocket parts and weapons.

While Okawara seems able to stray from thinness freely and he doesn't fear adding unusual decorations on his Gundam designs: Wing's chest vents, Shen Long's elongated arms, SEED's druggy trio's Gundams.

Well, that's my observations anyway. I wonder what would happen if Okawara were to redesign's AGE's Gundams. I can's see AGE-2 being thinner. More detailed lines probably.

Humanoid maybe but Katoki's designs hardly have human proportions. Inversely if any human had the proportions of Katoki's MS we'd call them monsters and hunt them with pitchforks and torches. Besides, I question how you claim Okawara isn't afraid to add strange designs when Katoki designed the Kshatriya.

[Mythgarr]

Besides, I question how you claim Okawara isn't afraid to add strange designs when Katoki designed the Kshatriya.

Kshatriya is essentially half sized, four winged Queen Mansa. An improved design of another designer's work.

[nacho-wan]

@Mythgarr: the wings themselves are pretty original. Queen Mansa itself is more rounded and organically lookying -almost fit for Dunbine.

Sure the Kshatriya has elements from both the Queen Mansa and the ZZ Gundam (just look at the legs!) as well as the Sinanju (arms and foot) but the ensemble is quite original while containing sufficient connection to past designs. That is the charm of a katoki design. It doesn't come out of nowhere but it certainly goes forward.

[Kuruni]

Also, look at this final evolution of Devil Gundam from Shin SRW. Sadly, it's only appeared in that game and I can't find any lineart.

[Mythgarr]

So, let's just all agree that Katoki is Jony Ive of mecha designs...

[DuelGundam2099]

Who is Jony Ive?

[ShadowCell]

a thing you could know about by using Google

[Xenosynth]

Random thing that's been brought up multiple times but I wanted to again bring up proportioning. Now... for me as someone who came into Gundam at a relatively late stage, I seem more used to Katoki proportions (and somewhat prefer them), but now I constantly see on websites and things people complaining that all new MS designs especially with Katoki have 'Stupid waists and heads' but... the more I look, I just don't think the change is that drastic, besides his designs looking less... blocky. I guess it's a bit of a rant but... I really don't like being called stupid over not enjoying the 'original' style ~_~ Is it really important enough to lob personal insults over?

Now, here that doesn't seem as important but on a lot of modeling sites and other sites, I noticed that the arguing over proportions can go into a downward spiral regarding modern/Katoki-ish proportions to Okawara/'Original' proportions.

My questions are: Do the proportions really matter so much and is the Japanese Gundam community as bad with arguing about things like proportions and artists as well?

[Mythgarr]

Proportions with certain flow of aesthetic do matter. Okawara designs may not be slim, a bit bulky, but they generally flows in a general aesthetics . The rigidness of gundam, the curves of Zaku, the bulkiness of some of Gundam backpacks on SEED, Sword Impulse Gundam
Katoki designs seem to be slim if possible, ornamentals, and linear if possible. Unicorn is a blatant example of this design: mostly straight lines, broken into ornamentals when in Destroy mode, and slim. (and it's head design in Destroy mode ruins the overall design for me)
Victory may look curvy, but you can not deny that there is a kind of linearity on its design. The curvy legs clashed with the rigid arms, the body doesn't flow nicely with the curves of its shoulders and heads.

Anyway, I am not inclined to either proportions of slimness or bulkiness. I like AGE-2 and Exia's slimness while still adore Forbidden's and Gouf's bulkiness.

[J-Lead]

Random thing that's been brought up multiple times but I wanted to again bring up proportioning. Now... for me as someone who came into Gundam at a relatively late stage, I seem more used to Katoki proportions (and somewhat prefer them), but now I constantly see on websites and things people complaining that all new MS designs especially with Katoki have 'Stupid waists and heads' but... the more I look, I just don't think the change is that drastic, besides his designs looking less... blocky. I guess it's a bit of a rant but... I really don't like being called stupid over not enjoying the 'original' style ~_~ Is it really important enough to lob personal insults over?

You have to remember; this is a fanbase, and like any fanbase, we have our crybabies and our mouth-breathers that will call you a pleb for not liking what they like. I've been into Gundam for over fifteen years of my life, and I never had a problem with Katoki.

As for proportions, yes, proportions do matter, but not in the way you're implying. I actually like Katoki's proportions specifically because they tend to have a somewhat smaller center of mass, which actually makes sense for a machine that relies on the principles of AMBAC to maneuver in space (to me at least.) In addition, when Katoki does make use of big backpacks, he tends to thicken the limbs a bit to compensate for the additional mass, which balances out the overall design (Sinanju is a shining example of this.)

So yeah, Katoki's got his quirks, but they aren't all bad quirks.

[Derringer]

Here's the Nu Gundam interview I requested translated into Eng. I also helped with the translation

http://en.gundam.info/topics/white/18562

This interview gives a great deal of background into the existence of the Nu Ver. Ka and goes on further to explain that the psycoframe being all over the body is just another interpretation similar to characters from other large franchises like Batman or Spiderman having tweaked stories. This is somewhat significant because this project at the G-Dome had Sunrise involvement, which does this mean this is official and recognized by them. The name of the exposed psycoframe is called "Invoke Mode" and in the G-Dome CG short it is treated as an accidental activation of an unknown power and precursor to the Unicorn's Destroy mode.

[nacho-wan]

I'm not exactly happy with Mr. Katoki's explanation (excuse would be more accurate). The addition of the psycoframe to the armor of the Nu is just for the show? So it could be clearly seen in the Gundam Front video.

As for the "interpretation version", given the status of the Hi Nu Gundam it is easy to accept this kit as a tribute to the original design which I agree is quite polished.

[Darrien]

you keep using this word. i do not think it means what you think it means.

Totally necro-ing here, but no one else points out a Princess Bride reference? I'm disappointed.

Also, just my two cents, I tend to like the more angular and straight line approach from Katoki, rather than the rounded-ness of Okawara. It simply, to me, looks much more "giant military hardware"-ish, rather than "giant robot toy." I honestly get a little depressed with each MSV-R release, as I love the ideas behind a lot of them, but always seem to think how there are so many other artists I'd rather see them being drawn from. Of course, usually the hunt for information and or conjecture overwhelms that, and I can't say there aren't a few I do like completely (that Luna Tank is just so... darling, I can't stand to do anything other than love it...). Assuming most of his designs are his own ideas and not adaptations of other artists (since we don't know what Tomino may or may not have doodled), I'd love to have Okawara do the initial drafts, and then have other artists come in an do them... "justice," for lack of a better word, in my opinion.

[MythSearcher]

Alright, someone bought this up, I will give a more Asian perspective.

I personally like Katoki's redesigns better, but I have doubts if he can really design something from scratch.
Quite a lot of people share the same view in HK and Taiwan.
And people in Japan obviously liked Katoki's versions better, if not, he wouldn't be working on so many Bandai model projects.

Katoki designed Virtual On all by himself, it worked, but my view is that the success is purely because of the game interface being still primitive at that time. You don't get really detailed graphics, so Katoki should have been really limited to doing simple designs instead of the really complicated ones he normally do.

All Katoki's Gundam designs are pretty much redesigns of existing units, S Gundam might seem original, but it is basically a more detailed mechanized version of ZZ.
He did give us GP03, but the design is an upgraded version of RX-78 and GP01.
V2 might be one of the more original ones he did, but then again, it is quite obviously influenced greatly from V Gundam, and I guess the double V design was one of the design constraints that was given to him instead of his own design.
The EW versions of W units not much different from these, he did gave them rather exotic looks, but none of them are designed from scratch.
Unicorn? well, if I must say, it is a detailed version of RX-78 in the NTD mode, and a GM mimicking First unit of EVA, in white.

And to be honest, try to think of any Katoki's designs in you head, without looking at any references(yes, don't turn and look at your model shelf, I'm talking about you there)
Can you really recall all the small details?
Can you even give the minor silhouete of it?

Granted, most Katoki designs LOOK cool, but they kinda stop at that.
They don't stick to your memory like little parasites that you can't get rid of.
They don't really give really strong impressions.

That seems to be the main reason that Bandai now mainly give him jobs for designing models, instead of designing actual mechas for shows.
If you want to place a model on your shelf, you are likely to keep looking at it and don't really care if it gives you strong impression or not. You need it to be grand and majestic, eye capturing.


And to answer the question of how he changed the design of Gundam, basically, he made it more industrialized. He designed things so that they look more like they are real machines that are that big, instead of a human stuffed into a power suit.
All the decals made it more so, since you do have a lot of caution and warning on larger machines like the bulldozers, jet liners, etc.
Also, Okawara's designs are, simply put, impossible ones. The joints are basically fixed, or you really need a shape shifting metal to make it move. You have no problem if it is a human in a special outfit, but you have serious problems when it is a mecha and parts are made of rigid materials.
If you don't know what I am talking about, take a good look at RX-78-2 and 3(Okawara designs), the elbow joints are basically fixed, you cannot really make it to move if you build it like that.
(Guncannon and the amphibious suits got a different design, those can move, but usually you don't see those on the titular machine because they are not as good looking.)
Katoki changed that, and started to give more realistic joints to the models, and changed the proportion of the units, so they look more like you are looking up at one, so you see longer legs and a shorter body(since the body part is further away)
He switched to using extra sections in the joints, instead of having just a single cylindrical joint on the elbow and knee, he used two, so you got an extra section in the middle, which gives the unit a higher degree of freedom.

Seriously, Okawara got good design sense, his designs gives strong impressions, but are not really cool looking in modern day point of view, they are more like flat pictures, got little details that can make you stare longer, and to Bandai's dismay, they are impossible to build into models without changing the designs. His designs all needed fine tuning, and redesigns from other designers before being used, and one of his nick name, Big Head wara,(In japanese, this only changes the middle kanji of his surname) was because his designs all featured really big heads and make the mecha looks short and fat.
Katoki fixes that, but that seems to be his limit.

[Tangerine]

Okawara made from scratch, he got the vision and all but not the details. Katoki sort of perfected it and make it believable in 3d environment. But I think he lacks the ability to draw anything original.

It's like Okawara is the story writer and Katoki is the editor that fix the grammar and structures.

[Strike Zero]

Okay, you know what, this is starting to get a little bothersome. Anybody who makes the claim that Katoki-

lacks the ability to draw anything original

Is either unaware of the entirety of his body of work, or is simply refusing to acknowledge it. While it's true that over the course of the past decade the majority of his work for Gundam has been in redesigning old suits, all one needs to do is look back beyond Unicorn in order to realize that he has in fact produced some very original designs, mostly during 90's when he collaborated on shows like G Gundam, Wing and 08th MS Team.

Of particular note are the designs of the Master and Nobel Gundams, the Tallgeese, and the Apsalus, just to name a few. And let's not forget the experience he's had designing ships either -- in Victory he designed most of the Zanscare ships, including the Keilas Guilie, and in Wing he was responsible for the overly-detailed designs of Barge and Libra.

I realize that it may be difficult to look past all of the GFF and Unicorn redesigns, since that's pretty much all that he's been doing for quite some time now, but to say that Katoki isn't capable of designing anything original is a statement that I feel requires a bit of revision.