Nukes in gundam

[JEFFPIATT]

i found this bit on info on tv tropes under the Artistic License - Nuclear Physics section.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hysicsGoof

Amazingly enough, Mobile Suit Gundam averted this: a nuke is launched in one episode, and is then sliced apart by the eponymous Gundams beam saber. Slicing the nuke does not cause it to explode, but fall to pieces harmlessly. How averted this is is debatable, as Amuro is shown he has to slice the missile apart in a certain way to keep it from exploding. Draw your own conclusions.

Sadly, later series are more inaccurate. Both Stardust Memory and Char's Counterattack also prominently featured nukes... which did not behave much like actual nukes would (most horribly: the Physalis Gundam's nuclear bazooka looks like it fires some sort of beam rather than a projectile).
The GP-02's atomic bazooka doesn't seem to be a conventional nuclear missile launcher, as instead of a missile flying out of the shaft, an intense beam of energy emerges. This suggests that the bazooka is actually a casaba howitzer, a directed energy weapon that utilizes a nuclear-shaped charge to generate a high-energy gamma ray laser and is essentially a hypothetical real-life Wave Motion Gun. However, they still fail in that in order to make a casaba howitzer that small without blowing up the GP-02 in the process, it would have to be made of a material much MUCH stronger than anything currently known to man, and since mobile suits of all makes and models are getting torn apart by simple energy and kinetic weapons, this probably isn't the case.
Gundam SEED has ZAFT remove nukes from the equation of war with the N-Jammer, a device that completely cancels nuclear reactions in its radius... somehow. Then N-Jammer Canceller technology is discovered and they go back to launching nukes. ZAFT's next countermeasure is the Neutron Stampeder, which somehow prematurely detonates the warheads before they're launched.

I thought this might be an good discussion starter.

[AmuroNT1]

TV Tropes is full of crap. Discussion?

[nacho-wan]

I would say crap per se, because crap is put in most shows by ignorant writers. As for nuclear explosions in Gundam, well since most MS are nuclear powered -anytime something gets blow should produce nasty consequences -most of which have been omitted in the majority of series

[Sume Gai]

I would say crap per se, because crap is put in most shows by ignorant writers. As for nuclear explosions in Gundam, well since most MS are nuclear powered -anytime something gets blow should produce nasty consequences -most of which have been omitted in the majority of series

well I'm no nuclear physicist but I feel the need to dispel a myth right here. What we currently know as a nuclear reactor (which are only shown to be used in SEED BTW) will not explode like a nuclear bomb if hit stabbed cut or shot. The explosion needed to trigger the runaway fission reaction is an incredibly precise process. Carefully shaped and placed explosives are timed in the nanoseconds to cause the compression needed for this reaction.

If you stabbed a ball of plutonium (like those used in a bomb rather than a rod like in a reactor) with a beam saber you would probably vaporize it which could leave some nasty radioactive dust behind but would not trigger a nuclear blast. (might be a different story if you were throwing a stream of neutrons at it) The worse case for a fission reactor explosion is going to be something akin to a dirty bomb which is indeed bad but lacks the kind of power of a bomb.

[GundamMaker01]

well I'm no nuclear physicist but I feel the need to dispel a myth right here. What we currently know as a nuclear reactor (which are only shown to be used in SEED BTW)

Nuclear reactors have existed in the Universal Century and in other Alternate Universes. In UC, this plot point was danced around in 08th MS Team, when Ryer was contemplating blowing up a GM reactor to destroy the Zeon base. The gundams in Gundam Wing, Gundam X, and Zeta (just to name a few) are powered by ultracompact fusion reactors; the specs of the Gundams can be found at http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm.

P.S. I don't mean to sound like a douche or anything but, I'd just like to point out that nuclear powered mobile suits have been around for a while.

[Sume Gai]

I want to point out the phrase "What we currently know as a Nuclear reactor" meaning the kind of power plant that is currently in service. Fusion is technically a form of nuclear power but not what most people would think of when discussing the issue of Nuclear Energy

Pretty much everything in Gundam except CE & AD use 'clean' Fusion reactors which do not use radioactive fuel (helium-3 and Deuterium IIRC). I"m not certain of the real-word physics involved with stabbing one of those with a Beam Saber or shooting it with a Beam Rifle. (which FYI were absent from the known zeonic arsenal during that particular fight making his fears groundless)

We know from the show with giant robots and psychic teenagers in it that a beam through a fusion reactor is supposed to produce a large explosion (my guess is it's a partial runaway fusion reaction). But fallout from such an explosion should be negligent. It is the size of the explosion which poses a threat, and judging from the several reactor explosions we see on screen in UC not as big a threat as an actual nuclear weapon.

[Nebfer]

Well Nukes in space do not behave anything like they do on the ground. IIRC their would be no shock wave, or fireball... Just a flash and a radiation burst.

[Dark Duel]

I'm no astrophysicist or nuclear expert, but I think you're right, for two reasons - well, one reason: Space is a VACUUM.
- From my limited understanding of the concept, a shockwave has to have some kind of medium to travel through - whether air, water, or heck, the ground. There is no such medium in space - ergo, no shockwave.
- A nuclear fireball - or any kind of fireball, really - AFAIK likewise requires air; so again no air in space, no giant fireball.

While we're on the subject of nuclear shenanigans, what about that bigarse mushroom cloud on the moon in Seed when the PLANTs nuked it with GENESIS? I'm not sure how realistic that was*, but I'm kinda thinking not.


(*Well, setting aside the fact that a giant nuke-laser that looks like a glorified satellite dish the size of Texas is not exactly the most realistic weapon in the first place)

[nacho-wan]

... The worse case for a fission reactor explosion is going to be something akin to a dirty bomb which is indeed bad but lacks the kind of power of a bomb.

This indeed the real problem with nukes and Gundam's MS. They are nuclear powered because it makes for an easy to explain power source; however very few times there are consequences to their usage namely radioactive contamination or exposition.

[Wingnut]

While we're on the subject of nuclear shenanigans, what about that bigarse mushroom cloud on the moon in Seed when the PLANTs nuked it with GENESIS? I'm not sure how realistic that was*, but I'm kinda thinking not.


(*Well, setting aside the fact that a giant nuke-laser that looks like a glorified satellite dish the size of Texas is not exactly the most realistic weapon in the first place)

Probably not realistic at all. I don't even know if a gamma ray laser would even kick up dust at all as a result of the impact, but even if it did the cloud should look more like what we know of that's generated when a meteor hits the lunar surface with debris being flung in all directions equally.

[Sume Gai]

... The worse case for a fission reactor explosion is going to be something akin to a dirty bomb which is indeed bad but lacks the kind of power of a bomb.

This indeed the real problem with nukes and Gundam's MS. They are nuclear powered because it makes for an easy to explain power source; however very few times there are consequences to their usage namely radioactive contamination or exposition.

Again -this- only applies in SEED and only once has a Fission powered MS been destroyed in the atmosphere, in the Anime at least. Which I admit, they don't bother to expound upon nearly enough to say whether shenanigans were involved. The rest of the series (bar AD which avoids both fusion and fission) use Fusion power which is -much- cleaner and should not be scattering radioactive debris as neither its fuel or byproducts (in the case of He3-D) fusion) are radioactive.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Probably not realistic at all. I don't even know if a gamma ray laser would even kick up dust at all as a result of the impact, but even if it did the cloud should look more like what we know of that's generated when a meteor hits the lunar surface with debris being flung in all directions equally.

Actually, both GENESIS and the mushroom cloud are fairly realistic. The main product of a nuclear explosion is gamma radiation; in atmosphere, this is nigh-instantly translated to heat as it's absorbed by the atmosphere, and the heat in turn becomes the massive shockwave that nukes are known for.

In space, though, none of this happens; without anything to absorb it, the gamma radiation stays gamma radiation. This can be captured and focused just as with visible light, to form a gamma radiation laser. That's what GENESIS does. Of course, when a gamma radiation laser hits something else, it transfers a whole lot of energy to it, which becomes heat, which causes it to blow up.

As far as the mushroom cloud -- mushroom clouds are not unique to nuclear weaponry. Any sufficiently large explosion, regardless of source, will cause one. GENESIS would certainly qualify.

[Dark Duel]

As far as the mushroom cloud -- mushroom clouds are not unique to nuclear weaponry. Any sufficiently large explosion, regardless of source, will cause one. GENESIS would certainly qualify.

Maybe so, but from my limited understanding of how mushroom clouds are formed, the "stem" of a mushroom cloud is formed because of the difference in density and temperature between the gasses released and the surrounding air as the former begin to rise, and only once the gasses reach an altitude at which this difference is no longer present do they begin to disperse into the "cap" of the mushroom.
In space, there is no air, so it seems to me that it would be impossible for this to take place.
Of course, I admit to having only limited understanding of the physics of this particular phenomenon myself, so if anyone with more know-how can chime in, I'd welcome it.

[Malcadon]

Thu funny thing about this topic, it that even the most famous hardcore sci-fi writers make huge flubs with their own books. Things like nuclear reaction or particle-projection is not freakin' rocket science! ...it just particle physics.

What I like about this topic, is how we are all arm-chair physicists. Not to say we are stupid - one could understand fire, without knowing the science behind it - but physicists tend to explain things in the most technical terms, and with formulas that comes off as Hieroglyphics to most people. And that might be the point: a hard-science setting might be exciting to someone who knows better, but to most people, we like things a little fantastic. What is the point of an epic space battle when all the action is muted; nuclear explosions go off like a flashbulbs; humanoid fighters are as impractical in spare, as they are on the ground; fighters move too fast for human pilots; ships and fighters dont zip-around all over the place; bridges, cockpits and gunnery stations are buried deep in a ship's hull, and without windows or portholes; the ships are too spaced apart to visually see each other; and all in an environment that offers nothing in the way of stealth. We just like to see *beep* blowup!

[nacho-wan]

I salute you Malcadon. A toast in your honor and to all of us who are armchairphysics!!

[Antares]

One could hypothesize that some of the nukes in anime have to do with the Japanese viewpoint of it (always bad, always massive explosion, etc.).

With the GENESIS taking out Arzachel, I could understand that maybe (and I *am* talking out of my lower orifices here) the radiation caused whatever fuel, systems, what-have-you, in the place to blow up, which would then end up in the explosion. I don't know why the EA officers would splatter like they did, however... Could highly concentrated and intensified gamma radiation boil the fluids in a person body in an instant with the described results?

I have a feeling we've gone through this stuff before. Especially the case of GP02 has been widely debunked in the fandom of being absolute artistic license.

On the nuke missiles getting sliced, again, it is my very limited understanding that the nuke does not necessarily go off if not armed. My very limited understanding of modern military nukes is that they are heavily encased so that if the rocket they're housed in breaks apart in launch, the whole area around the launch base is not annihilated aside from the falling debris and fuel raining down. Still, a breached casing (be it for a warhead or for a reactor) could leak its radioactive materials around, which is something pretty all Gundams skilfully ignore.

My two cents (in euros).

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Could highly concentrated and intensified gamma radiation boil the fluids in a person body in an instant with the described results?

Yes. Think of it like being inside the world's biggest microwave.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

As for mushroom clouds on the moon, that is a definite negatory. The Moon's lack of atmosphere and 1/6 gravity means that, although objects fall at a uniform rate, they won't behave exactly the same as in Earth's atmosphere.

Dust kicked up by the tires of the lunar rover and the astronauts' boots tends to travel in ballistic arcs. Also dust kicked up by the exhaust of the Lunar Module travels outward uniformly and close to the surface, not in rolling clouds.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the explanation about the GP-02A from the first post, it sounds like the GP-02A's Nuclear Bazooka actually works like Genesis, or rather as a Casaba Howitzer. On the other hand, could Luna Titanium/Gundarium Alloy actually fit the bill for the strong material needed? The Physalis has a particularly thick Gundarium armor.

Since we are trying to rationalize the great falacies of the U.C., I wanted to ask if a Minovsky Craft system or similar could have been used to slow down the colony that Axis/Neo dropped on Dublin?

[toysdream]

Not going to dignify the TV Tropes thing with a response. The GP02A's bazooka is clearly supposed to fire a nuclear shell, despite the hinky way it's animated, and if that's the only thing that strikes you as odd about the way that event is depicted then you probably don't know much about nuclear physics.

On the other hand, the Jormungand from MS Igloo is a plasma cannon triggered by exploding reactors, which is closer to the mark.

As for the colony drop on Dublin, since Gundam Unicorn has formally adopted the crackpot theory that resonating psychoframes produce a psycho-field that can push around physical objects - thus justifying the end of Char's Counterattack - then perhaps we can extend this backwards to speculate that Newtype angst may have decelerated the Dublin colony drop as well. Why not?

-- Mark