GN Tau Drive Question

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Scorpius7692
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GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Scorpius7692 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:24 am

This is just something thats been bugging me for a few days, but would a Gundam normally powered by a true GN Drive actually run on a GN Tau Drive, or is the fake solar reactor not powerful enough or compatible with the Gundam's systems?
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:00 am

I can't remember the source so I suggest taking this with a grain of salt, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the HRL experimented with the recovered Kyrios and GN-X components, presumably including a GN[T] Drive, and there were compatibility issues.
So it's likely that there would be problems trying to fit a GN[T] Drive to a mobile suit not designed to run one - and if that's the case, it could be one of the possible reasons CB chose large-capacity GN Condensers instead to power 0 Gundam ACD or the 00-Raiser in the movie(along with, of course, the difficulty in actually procuring a GN[T] Drive to use).
Last edited by Dark Duel on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by neolordmaxwell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:54 am

As I recall, the compatibility issues were more a matter of the HRL lacking an understanding of how the CB Gundams actually transferred power, as the GNX and Throne series used a different method that wasn't compatible.

I'm fairly sure the Generation 2 Gundams show up powered by Tau Drives at some point in one of the comics or photo novels or something, and while it's not quite the same because it was refurbished/rebuilt, but the Gundam Seravee II was originally a true GN drive suit that was modified to run on GN Tau Drives, so I'd imagine it should be possible.
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Crimson-Lightning » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:57 am

Well a big problem would probably be an outright fundamental difference between the true GN drives and the Tau Drives. Its my understanding that Tau Drives require energy to create GN particles as opposed to true GN Drives which generates both energy and GN particles. That being said the Gundams probably lack the batteries and the such that power the Tau Drives.

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by azrael » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Crimson-Lightning wrote:Well a big problem would probably be an outright fundamental difference between the true GN drives and the Tau Drives. Its my understanding that Tau Drives require energy to create GN particles as opposed to true GN Drives which generates both energy and GN particles. That being said the Gundams probably lack the batteries and the such that power the Tau Drives.
Well, a true GN drive could have a battery or capacitor since the true GN drives are continuously providing electricity and that power has to go somewhere when they're not using it. That being said, the difference between a true and Tau drive would be the solar furnace powering the battery of the true GN drive (i.e., it's an internal system) while the Tau drive's battery would have to draw power from an external power source.

I would agree with the statement that primary issue between using a GN[T] drive compared to a true GN drive are due to compatibility issues with how CB designs their MSs. How CB designs their power transferring compared to the GN-X/Thrones would be a compatibility issue.
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:54 pm

Crimson Lightning has it right. A true GN Drive essentially takes nothing as input and delivers energy and GN particles as output (I recall reading something somewhere that a GN drive was actually a proton decay catalyst coupled with a solar panel tuned to the gamma spectrum, but I believe that was fan speculation. Entertaining thought, anyway), while a GN Tau drive takes energy as input and delivers GN particles as output.

In other words, to retrofit a Gundam with a GN Tau drive, you'd also need to install an entire powerplant (otherwise you'd have no energy source), which makes such a retrofit impractical at best.
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by DAG101 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:30 pm

@Kirby: What exactly does that technobabble-ish stuff mean?

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:32 pm

In brief, a GN[T] Drive requires an external powerplant to be able to generate GN Particles; a True Drive IS its own powerplant, and generates GN Particles as a byproduct.
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by E08 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:08 am

In a G-rooms article(i think this is what Dark Duel is referring to), HRL did what the OP was asking. They put a Tau Drive into Kyrios wreckage (it is missing its GN Drive) and attached test version of Ahead's limb to it. Although the article did not say if Kyrios managed to function after that, it did state from this experiment, HRL scientist did gain more knowledge about basic GN particle transmission technology. I suppose this can be interpreted either way, since it is possible to learn things whether Kyrios function or not.

Personally i think it should work fine as the GN particles produced by Tau Drive or the true GN Drive are essentially the same thing.

If im not mistaken, Tau drive is like a rechargeable battery, it needs to be charged at a station before it can start producing GN particles and the station are those things that are holding the Tau Drive before they are put into the MS. As such you dont really have to need to install an entire powerplant as whoever has the Tau Drive to carry out such experiment will most likely have the external recharge station.

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Arsarcana » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:52 pm

I believe there was a discussion about how the Tau Drives need a kickstart, which the GN-X couldn't provide internally (but the Thrones could), hence the Drives being started and then inserted into the machines. Still, the fact that the Drives are able to run at all between kickstart and insertion suggests that they aren't wholly dependant on a separate powerplant to operate. They might have a small internal battery or it might be that the Drive assembly itself contains everything it needs and it's just the surge of power to jump start the process that needs external help.

In any event, we know that suits that operate with original Drives can be made to operate with Tau Drives if needed, since we have a Tau-powered Astraea and the rebuilt Seravee as examples, even if the latter was heavily modified first. Regarding the Kyrios, aside from power distribution differences they might have had trouble simply powering the suit sufficiently to fully operate it even if everything else worked out; I recall that one source which I can't recall at present talked about the differences between Drive types and noted that the output of a Tau model was lower. IIRC the example used was Reborns, which didn't have the same output as 00 Raiser and only performed at the same level because of other improvements.

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:30 pm

DAG101 wrote:@Kirby: What exactly does that technobabble-ish stuff mean?
Which part of my post do you mean, exactly? The part about proton decay? I can go deeper into that, but fair warning: it's rather dry and not (directly) related to the conversation at hand.

First, some particle physics. Under certain conditions, atoms can undergo a process called "radioactive decay". This involves splitting apart into smaller chunks and releasing some energy in the process. This is how nuclear power plants (and bombs) work -- they create conditions that encourage particles to decay, and then use the energy (radiation) released to make electricity or blow stuff up or whatever.

Normally, the sub-atomic particles that make up atoms (protons, neutrons, and electrons) are very stable. The atoms themselves might undergo decay, but the subatomic particles that make them up never will. It's theoretically possible that they might, though, they're just so stable that it's really, really rare.

This is where it comes back to GN Drives. A catalyst is a substance that causes a chemical reaction to speed up. It doesn't change the reaction, and it isn't used up in the process (it's not, technically speaking, part of the reaction at all), it just makes the reaction go faster. Thus, a proton decay catalyst would be a substance that makes proton decay happen more quickly. (Such a substance would also fit the definition of a "topological defect" that has been used to describe GN Drives, or so I'm told. I don't actually understand the term, myself.)

So now you've got a substance that causes protons to decay, releasing little bits of stuff that protons are made of and some energy. Remember, however, that protons are basically the most common thing in the universe. That means you get a lot of energy -- probably in the form of gamma radiation (the same kind you get from other kinds of decay). Gamma radiation is part of the electromagnetic spectrum -- meaning it's the same kind of energy as radio waves, visible light, ultraviolet, etc etc. Using photovoltaic cells (ie, solar panels -- converting "photo", light, to "voltage", electricity), you can convert that gamma radiation directly into electricity, which you can then use to power your giant robot.

So, the theory goes that a GN Drive is a gamma radiation absorbing solar panel wrapped around a proton decay catalyst. This fits several descriptions we're given of GN Drives (the main two being "topological defect" -- the proton decay catalyst -- and "solar furnace" -- the photovoltaic cell) as well as being more-or-less scientifically sound (as long as you're willing to posit that proton decay catalysts exist and can be produced on Jupiter somehow, anyway).
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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by E08 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:00 am

Arsarcana wrote:They might have a small internal battery or it might be that the Drive assembly itself contains everything it needs and it's just the surge of power to jump start the process that needs external help.
If i remember correctly, it seems to be the latter case.
Arsarcana wrote:I recall that one source which I can't recall at present talked about the differences between Drive types and noted that the output of a Tau model was lower. IIRC the example used was Reborns, which didn't have the same output as 00 Raiser and only performed at the same level because of other improvements.
According to the Gundam 00 Mechanics 1st artbook, it seems that the output of the true and tau drive are the same. The problem with Reborns seems to be that the twin tau drive cannot square its output.

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by DAG101 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:04 pm

E08 wrote:According to the Gundam 00 Mechanics 1st artbook, it seems that the output of the true and tau drive are the same. The problem with Reborns seems to be that the twin tau drive cannot square its output.
From what I saw in the show, it would indeed be the Reborns being unable to square the output, rather than the Tau drives being inferior in terms out output; after all, the Thrones seemed to be on par, possibly even stronger than CB's four Gundams. And beyond that, considering how surprised Ribbons was that there was a twin-drive system, and how a decent amount of the second season involved Ribbons trying to figure out how it worked...it's very likely that Ribbons simply slapped two GN Tau Drives onto a Gundam to try and get more output to power those four large cannons.

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by SonicSP » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:25 am

Someone made a Gundam 00 Mecha query thread and I didnt notice it for THREE days. *kicks himself*
DAG101 wrote:From what I saw in the show, it would indeed be the Reborns being unable to square the output, rather than the Tau drives being inferior in terms out output; after all, the Thrones seemed to be on par, possibly even stronger than CB's four Gundams. And beyond that, considering how surprised Ribbons was that there was a twin-drive system, and how a decent amount of the second season involved Ribbons trying to figure out how it worked...it's very likely that Ribbons simply slapped two GN Tau Drives onto a Gundam to try and get more output to power those four large cannons.
The Thrones are more advanced because of their MS frame technology. At that time they are already utilizing some more advanced GNMS engineering. First was the more advanced GN Particle transfusion system which links the particles directly through the body rather than using purple cables and secondly was the more miniaturized and more efficient Drive configuration. Both of these were adapted by the S2 CB Gundams, which was why they don't have purple cables and have very small self contained GN Drive Chassises relative to those oversized Chest Chassis in S1. I don't know whether they are stronger as a whole but their frames were more advanced for sure.

We've actually confirmed that Reborns was using the Twin Drive System in various sources including 2nd Mechanics sourcebook as well as the Reborns Origin 00V chapter (the original Reborns with the Tank Mode didnt have it but it was then installed later). It also was mentioned in Reborns 00.net profile that Anew copied the Twin Drive System from Celestial Being (specifically, the translation of said source that I kept in my folder said "It is completed with the addition of the Twin Drive System stolen by Anew"). HG Hilling Garazzo mentioned that she copied the Trans-Am System as well and this is how the Innovators developed theirs.

According to 00.net Reborns profile, Reborns and 00 Raiser's overall performance are around the same. Reborns is superior in terms of overall MS technology while 00 is superior in terms of powerplant output and they even each other out roughly.

2nd Mechanics go into more detail. It mentions that Tau Twin Drive System has an inferior formula then squaring but doesn't go into detail on what it is specifically (it says that the exponential less than squared). In addition, it also mentions that the S2 Tau Drive output is lower than that an S2 Original Drive. I believe it should go like this:

Original Twin Drive:
S2 Original GN Drive^2

Tau Twin Drive:
S2 Tau Drive^(<2)

The 2nd Mechanics book also mentions the hierachy of Drive output I believe although doesnt give any specific numbers:

Book says:
S2 Original GN Drive > S1 Original Drive
S2 Tau Drive = S1 Original Drive

Thus, we can also conclude from the above that S2 Original Drive is also better than S2 Tau Drives.

With this, the disadvantage of Reborns' Twin Drive is twofold. Firstly, the exponential particle formula of the Twin Drive is weaker because you power the number to an integer that is "less than two" rather than "two" and secondly, the basic number you power it by is less.

For an example, if we assume that S2 Original Drive = 10 and S2 Tau Drive = 8 and input it into the formulas we get sort of like:

Original Twin Drive
10 ^ 2 = 100

Tau Twin Drive
8 ^ (<2) = (<64)

You'll get 100 for Original Twin Drive and less than 64 for Tau Twin Drive (can't calculate specifics without an actual number). Don't take the difference in numbers too seriously because the distance will vary depending on the input numbers we use (and I just randomly chose those), but this is to mainly how the mathematical disadvantage of the Tau Twin Drive System based on the vague descriptions we have been given.

Pretty confident about Tau Twin Drive formula and the GN Drive Output Hierachy information, I might have to check calubin_175's translations of the 2nd Mechanics again but I'm pretty confident these are it. Reborns seems quite powerful to me so I am of the opinion that the number to power by is closer to 2 than say 1 (where you don't get any increase in particle at all) but its still a disadvantage of sorts. Without actual numbers, its hard to tell by how much though.

And these likely may not even include the operation time limit as well as the fact that S2 Tau Drives destroy/heavily damage themselves post Trans-Am.
E08 wrote:According to the Gundam 00 Mechanics 1st artbook, it seems that the output of the true and tau drive are the same. The problem with Reborns seems to be that the twin tau drive cannot square its output.
That was the diagram that had 0 Gundam and the GN-X side by side right? Looking at my storage notes, I have a translation that I copied that says something similar ("there isn't a significance difference in output" it says).

In any case, it seems that 2nd Mechanics's statement (at least based on calubin's paratranslation anyways, which can be found on his posts in Gundam 00 Forums) seems to essentially say that the S2 GN Drives have a higher output than the S2 Tau Drives so it's likely that the gap likely appeared in S2 rather than in S1. Assuming its not a retcon or contradiction that is, which frankly happens from time to time.



On a similar unrelated note:

There does seem a suggestion that the S1 Tau Drive was kinda of inferior though, at least from the MG GN-X manual which I guess the 1st Mechanics sort of talks about a bit. The MG GN-X manual mentions that the GN-X was originally meant to be equipped with Original Drives and had some (likely engineering) specifications that were meant for Originals but the Corner family failed in developing them and had to settle with the Taus. The MG also says something about how it "pales in comparison" to the original but was useful in the sense that they can overwhelm the Gundam (via numbers). It makes me wonder whether they're inputing the limited time/energy into the output or effectiveness equation here because they really love talking about the inferiority of the S1 Tau Drives in some sources talking about S1 stuff.

Makes me wonder too, because the MG GN-X initially talks about the lack of Original Drives on the GN-X like its a very very big deal. A thirst or wanting that it later mentions was gone with the GN-XIII model with its improved Drive performance. Doesn't specify, but would all this performance be talking about "operation times" by any chance? Because if the output rates between Original and Taus are mostly similar in S1, that has to be the deciding factor that I can think of that they can be happy about.

If we were to take the 2nd Mechanics statement at face value (that the S2 Tau Drive equal to an S1 Original Drive), that would actually mean that the Tau Drive output in between S1 and S2 hasn't changed at all which would I guess really strenten the idea that the "improvement" that is being celebrated is operation time (and depending on one's POV, the fact that it's beams no longer poison people but it doesnt sound like its talking about that).

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Re: GN Tau Drive Question

Post by DAG101 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:41 am

o.0 wow, SonicSP

That's a LOT of info, thanks!

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