The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

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Mark-II
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Mark-II » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:35 pm

Zeta movies aside, Unicorn is the first production in many years to actively mix all these older suits together like this - in combat no less. I think it's great to see these older machines didn't simply disappear in their production times - GMIIs and Nemos mixing it up with newer suits where CCA showed only GMIIIs and Jegans. As much as the Federation once used captured Zeon MS for dissimilar combat training in 0083, here we have suits which shouldn't be THAT out of date still finding work in combat units.

Likewise, it's testament to the Fed's GM design paradigm that so many of the weapons (especially those relying on projectile ammunition) are interchangeable, where you know it'd be tough for a Zaku II's fat fingers to wield weapons designed for later MS. I'm sure that the Nemos and various older GMs would have had some incremental upgrades to generator power and software to keep them compatible with newer machinery and modules to keep 'em in the fight.

As such, regarding the (justifyably) maligned Juagg, who's to say the thing hasn't been seriously upgraded over the intervening years? It's most logically been sitting forgotten in an old Zeon bunker, or by some ex-pat who disappeared with it after the OYW, formuch of that time. Either way, complex war machines don't just sit idle for all that time and STAY that way - you don't put an F-18 in a hanger after the first Gulf War and expect to just gas it up and start the engines when you need it for the second.

I find it perfectly suitable for the Neo Zeon gang to want to upgrade the generator with something modern (and compatible), give it machine cannon in the fingers in place of old rocket launchers for ammunition that hasn't been made in ages, and take the caps off of a quartet of beam cannon you suddenly have enough power to fire with the new reactor. It's been discussed in the past that Zeon's many, many different design firms would have made getting any sort of replacement parts in the OYW for many of their machines a lofistical nightmare; making the Juagg combat ready after years in storage or as a derelict would have been a huge labor of love where making more Geara series machine would have made more sense.

I'd not be surprised at all if the Juagg is a white elephant on the outside, but a real hot rod under the hood.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by kayone73 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:30 pm

Mark-II wrote:Zeta movies aside, Unicorn is the first production in many years to actively mix all these older suits together like this - in combat no less. I think it's great to see these older machines didn't simply disappear in their production times - GMIIs and Nemos mixing it up with newer suits where CCA showed only GMIIIs and Jegans. As much as the Federation once used captured Zeon MS for dissimilar combat training in 0083, here we have suits which shouldn't be THAT out of date still finding work in combat units.
Nice summary, I think it shows that Unicorn doesn't have as overpowering a priority of push merchandise as much as a TV series (it's still doing plenty with plamo kits and robot damashii action figures of course) but still the whole OVA series comes across as a 'boutique' anime series catering to a very hardcore and focused UC fan crowd. Because anyone who gets into Gundam after the year 2000 won't give two sh**s any of these older UC suits make appearances throughout the show, but the rest of us who appreciate this love the fact they inject a little more reality into the UC world by pointing out the fact that old military hardware is still used here and there, just like it is in the real world.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:37 pm

latenlazy wrote:I find it interesting that the Juagg didn't outright destroy most of its targets, just incapacitate them.
It's possible that the Capule and Juagg were merely trying to lure Federation MS into the path of the Shamblo's initial shot. Since Loni fired above the city at first, it's possible that the two amphibious MS were meant to escape as soon as the firing began and before it was redirected to the surface, where the confused Federation pilots would still be standing.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by ydawg314 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:37 pm

I also think its important to note that it was like a 2 on 5 battle. The Juagg would most likely leave itself open to getting surrounded and overwhelmed if it was to spend time on any one mobile suit.

This is probably also why it used its machinegun/rpg distance attacks successfully to destroy targets but started losing when it entered melee combat where the pilot was forced to focus one enemy
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Imperial » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:42 pm

kayone73 wrote:Nice summary, I think it shows that Unicorn doesn't have as overpowering a priority of push merchandise as much as a TV series (it's still doing plenty with plamo kits and robot damashii action figures of course) but still the whole OVA series comes across as a 'boutique' anime series catering to a very hardcore and focused UC fan crowd. Because anyone who gets into Gundam after the year 2000 won't give two sh**s any of these older UC suits make appearances throughout the show, but the rest of us who appreciate this love the fact they inject a little more reality into the UC world by pointing out the fact that old military hardware is still used here and there, just like it is in the real world.
Every Gundam production pushes merchandise. That you've made mention of plamo and damashii even while saying these things aren't a big deal is a sign of just what a massive contradiction it is to suggest Gundam isn't toyetic.

It's not even a matter of realism. Why is the Federation using vintage MS like this to defend its capital? It smacks of insanity.

Sure, I can buy a bunch of cut off Zeon rebels getting by with what they have, but this is silly. The Federation doesn't really begin its slide into obsolesce until the later UC. They're still innovating with all the new suits Londo Bell and ECOAS are playing with.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Cmdr Harabec » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:05 am

Imperial wrote:
kayone73 wrote:Nice summary, I think it shows that Unicorn doesn't have as overpowering a priority of push merchandise as much as a TV series (it's still doing plenty with plamo kits and robot damashii action figures of course) but still the whole OVA series comes across as a 'boutique' anime series catering to a very hardcore and focused UC fan crowd. Because anyone who gets into Gundam after the year 2000 won't give two sh**s any of these older UC suits make appearances throughout the show, but the rest of us who appreciate this love the fact they inject a little more reality into the UC world by pointing out the fact that old military hardware is still used here and there, just like it is in the real world.
Every Gundam production pushes merchandise. That you've made mention of plamo and damashii even while saying these things aren't a big deal is a sign of just what a massive contradiction it is to suggest Gundam isn't toyetic.

It's not even a matter of realism. Why is the Federation using vintage MS like this to defend its capital? It smacks of insanity.

Sure, I can buy a bunch of cut off Zeon rebels getting by with what they have, but this is silly. The Federation doesn't really begin its slide into obsolesce until the later UC. They're still innovating with all the new suits Londo Bell and ECOAS are playing with.
Probably because they do have all of these old MS laying around that they've accumulated, and little to do with them. The new MS they're pumping out do have specific missions to go and achieve. The Londo Bell taskforce appears to constantly be having its hands full and doing most of the fighting since its formation, hence why they are the ones that are getting to play with all the new units. It makes sense that they'd have old, outdated units guarding their areas.

The novels, from what I've heard people saying, really elaborate a lot more. The Earth is defended by a very powerful satellite system that makes pretty much any land or air assault totally useless, and they were fairly unprepared for a sea assault... which is why they even got to Dakar in the first place.

On top of that, the Federation isn't fighting a war. They haven't been involved in a truly major war since the first Neo Zeon conflict - the second Neo Zeon conflict was a small set of skirmishes that was mostly handled by Londo Bell. Hence why they're still getting all the good toys. The expensive toys, of which there are few, at that, which will also explain why there aren't ReZELs all over the capital.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Zeonista » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:32 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Just saw the first 6 minutes. I'm impressed by the Juagg capabilities since it actually managed to take down 2 Nemos before going down.

On the other hand, I did saw some oddities:

-The Juagg's arms, aren't they supposed to be oversized rocket launchers? They seemed more like machineguns to me. Though I'm thrilled to confirm that it indeed has mega particle cannons on its torso.

-So, either the Nemo's beam sabers have a really low output or the Zeon Remnants decided to apply anti-beam coating to their entire MS, or at least to their MS arms. In any case, I still can't quite believe that the Juagg actually stopped a beam saber with its arm, though the other one didn't managed to stop the beam javelin.
IN the story thread domtropen has observed that the Juagg has been modded with different/extra weapons. I was curious about the parrying of beam sabers with hand/forearm as well by marine MS. I remember the MSM types being able to do that before, though. Perhaps the arms/claws are coated to give them better penetration power underwater when crawling about, and the ability to parry a beam saber is just a nifty discovery?
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Ceiling_Squid » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:43 pm

Imperial wrote:
It's not even a matter of realism. Why is the Federation using vintage MS like this to defend its capital? It smacks of insanity.

Sure, I can buy a bunch of cut off Zeon rebels getting by with what they have, but this is silly. The Federation doesn't really begin its slide into obsolesce until the later UC. They're still innovating with all the new suits Londo Bell and ECOAS are playing with.
I get that Gundam likes to shuffle and outdate its hardware very quickly, but I find it very humorous to call a suit "vintage" if it's just barely a decade old. That notion needs to be addressed.

It's one of the flaws, I think, that a lot of Gundam productions have, is that they date their hardware far too quickly. In fact, only F91 and Victory gundam actually worked fairly well in that regard, the utter obsolescence of the Jegan and Jamesgun/Javelin units only came after multiple decades of useful service, rather than a mere few years.

A GM II, maybe would be called vintage, because that thing was barely an improvement over the original from the One-Year-War. But the Nemo? It served very well in the Gryps conflict, and that machine just turned a mere nine years old. I can totally see the Feds still employing the units they have, even if they aren't producing new ones. That anomalous GM II is probably there because the Feds didn't want to scrap working suits, and instead threw it on rear-line duties, defending the home front. Good way to get some use out of it.

As Cmdr Harabec put it, all those expensive new toys go straight to the task forces at Londo Bell and ECOAS. It's precisely because those people there are the ones who tend to deal with all the enemy's fancy hardware. Big newtype weapon? Send Londo Bell at them.

The Feds have only so much budget, when it comes down to it, so why scrap a perfectly good working mobile suit? If they aren't dealing with the Zeon enemy-of-the-week prototype, a grunt like a Nemo will serve them just fine. Suits don't suddenly fall apart after a decade, and I'm sure they still perform well enough to fight conventional enemy grunts in conventional police actions. If Unicorn's statements about the rarity of newtypes are anything to go by, massive attacks by the Shamblo here should be little more than a ping on the radar when it comes to how the Feddies outfit their defense forces. It's just, the productions always focus on the flashy weapons. We don't see these supposedly "outdated" workhorse suits actually performing their usual duties, which I'm sure they're more than good enough for.

And finally, we get to the Federation's "slide into obsolescence". While it is most visible in late UC, I have to strongly disagree. I believe the Federation's slipping grip on progress and the Earth sphere began as early as the end of the OYW, the most devastating conflict in history. Half the population died, massive resources were expended, and on top of that, they were forced to privatize MS development by contracting to Anaheim. Many of the Federation's later so-called "innovations" aren't even their own work.

And this even was visible as early as the Gryps conflict. Like Londo Bell of the UC 90s, all the fancy prototypes were NOT going to the main forces. The Titans got the prototypes of the week, and they were a special elite counter-Zeon group. The Federation was still using GM II units, and Gabaldy Betas at the time. In ZZ (if my memory isn't fuzzy), the Feds rolled over for Haman, and it was actually Karaba running in to save the day with those new GM III units. Then, in CCA, while the Jegan is the grunt we see on-screen most of the time, those were only serving with the Londo Bell task group. When the Federation fleet can get off it's ass to help, the first suit we see is in shot is a GM III, a five-year-old model.

It looks to be that by the time of Unicorn, the Feds are probably now beginning to adopt the Jegan more fully, with a mix of those and the GM III as their best grunt units, and the odd GM II and Nemo probably rounding out the home defense forces, who don't see frontline fighting. Stuff like the Jesta and ReZel are still purely "special forces" issue.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Homeless » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:19 pm

It is a shame that the official site also pretty much calls the GM II, GM III, and Nemo outdated trash.

Of course, it also worships the mighty Zaku Cannon...
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Mark-II » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:04 pm

I can't remember if we have any production numbers for some of these GMs. GMIIs should be relatively plentiful, but GMIIIs and Nemos were wartime production machines. I never got the impression that they'd arisen in large numbers beyond whatever we saw on screeen. More than dozens perhaps, but hundred? I dunno..

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:34 pm

Mark-II wrote:I can't remember if we have any production numbers for some of these GMs. GMIIs should be relatively plentiful, but GMIIIs and Nemos were wartime production machines. I never got the impression that they'd arisen in large numbers beyond whatever we saw on screeen. More than dozens perhaps, but hundred? I dunno..

Mark-II
Well, according to this thread, about 800 RGM-86R were produced. There's no info on the GM II, but it says that half of the 3,800 GMs produced during the OYW survived, so those were probably upgraded into RGM-79C and RGM-79R. Then there's also the additional RMS-179 units produced at Gryps.

The same thread says that less than 3,000 units of the Jegan series were produced. Then, this thread mentions that about 80 Jegans were produced, which refers to the original version, the RGM-89, we see in CCA. It's possible that the 3,000 figure includes not only Unicorn's RGM-89D units, but also the RGM-89J, RGM-89M and RGM-89R from F91 (though these are probably upgraded RGM-89D anyway). In both threads Mark takes the information from the B Club Magazine.

I still find odd that the Federation doesn't seem to have any Hizacks. I know some were given to the republic fo Zeon, but still it was one of the msot heavily produced Ms during the Gryps war. Maybe the Federation gave them the Alexandria treatment?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Homeless » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:44 pm

They can probably only show their true power in the Zeon's hands, of course. :roll:
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Ceiling_Squid » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:47 pm

Homeless wrote:It is a shame that the official site also pretty much calls the GM II, GM III, and Nemo outdated trash.

Of course, it also worships the mighty Zaku Cannon...
Yeah, that makes me raise an eyebrow. The GM II, maybe, but the GM III was, by most other sources, called a damn good machine in its day, and the Nemo was no slouch either. As far as I remember, the Zaku Cannon also had its share of nasty recoil problems, so that too stands out as kind of a WTF on the part of the official site. Last I remember, the Zaku Cannon was a failed design.

They're probably just continuing the trend of the Feddie stereotype being "quantity over quality" and all that, even though logically the Zaku Cannon is a relic compared to any of these suits, even the GM II. Heck, even the original GM outperformed the Zaku when it was introduced. Probably standard Zeon engineering fanboyism, though.

Then again, we shall see how this pans out when the full episode is released. Aside from the Nemos and GM IIs getting hit hard in the first fight, the GM III pilot actually did a pretty good job. I hope this trend of decent Feddie mooks gets a little more life in it. Stark Jegan Guy and Beam Javelin Badass demand vindication!!
Gelgoog Jager wrote: I still find odd that the Federation doesn't seem to have any Hizacks. I know some were given to the republic fo Zeon, but still it was one of the msot heavily produced Ms during the Gryps war. Maybe the Federation gave them the Alexandria treatment?
Yeah, this also is a concern. The Hizack should be a common workhorse suit. I guess you may be right, the Titan connection probably made them retire a lot of the Hizacks due to the P.R. nightmare it must have been, just like the Alexandria-class. Must have been a costly blow to their M.S. force.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by balofo » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:50 pm

I was disappointed in the Capule's performance in the PV, but
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at Torrington a Capule kicks ass, even using a GM as shield like the 0800 intro battle

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:01 pm

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that may have been inspired by that fight where the capule inspired hygoog does it
With the GM II it seems that the GM III started out as an field support modification done to the GM units during the first neo zeon war that the EFF adopted as an main front line unit. my guess with the hi-zacks is the ones that aren't in the hands of rebel forces or the ROZ were converted in to RMS-116H units and sold.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Black Knight » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:57 pm

If people think back to, say, the time between 1935 and 1965, military equipment advanced very quickly, such that vehicles and aircraft would be fielded in large numbers, and then retired as obsolete within five or ten years. By 1950, Sherman tanks, as built, were essentially hopelessly obsolete, despite being only 6-7 years old. On the other hand, with radical updates to essentially all systems, the Sherman tank was able to soldier on into the '60s and '70s, still seeing combat with the Israelies, where they reportedly fared very well against much more modern T-55 tanks, and they were still in service through the '80s in Chile.

So, remember, there's "obsolete" and then there's "obsolete".

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:52 pm

The best way to put it is that the earth federation has a lot of military bases to stock and post titans they phased out use of RMS units switching back to the GM series. it is possible that the GM II units still in service were upgraded. Unicorn is taking an more realistic approach and units from the past few years are still out there and the EFF probably keep them around until they run out of spare parts and have RGM-89 units to replace them.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Zeonista » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:43 pm

Imperial wrote:
kayone73 wrote:It's not even a matter of realism. Why is the Federation using vintage MS like this to defend its capital? It smacks of insanity.

Sure, I can buy a bunch of cut off Zeon rebels getting by with what they have, but this is silly. The Federation doesn't really begin its slide into obsolesce until the later UC. They're still innovating with all the new suits Londo Bell and ECOAS are playing with.
I am not sure if planetary defense ever regained priority following the One Year War. The space force received the majority of the defense budget, and for a while the Titans got some of that, so the Earth-based units were the poor stepchildren who got the leftovers, the holdovers, and the makeovers. Economic, and efficient since it's not like the Zeon Remnants were going to invade again, right? The remnant forces marooned on Earth didn't have the latest equipment for the most part, so second-tier MS would be considered good enough for dealing with them. Which, I suspect, is what were are going to see in places; pre-Gryps War Zeon MS upgraded to 0085 levels versus EFF garrison forces with 0087-88 level MS. In other words, a fairly balanced fight. The spotlight of course will be Unicorn and Tristars' Jestas going after the Shambloo and Sleeves escort, and their part of the battle will matter the most. But the second-raters will have their day in the sun, proving that "obsolete" does not necessarily mean "useless".
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Calubin_175 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:25 am

The Jaburo infiltration models, Juagg, Agguguy and Zogock, were designed with land combat in mind and their ability to traverse underwater was only an auxiliary function. They are unlike the Z'Gok and Acguy, which excel in underwater combat and are not necessarily handicapped on land. Meanwhile, the Gogg had mobility problem on land due to its leg design.

The Juagg had armor thickness similar to that of the Gogg, and combat purpose comparable to the Zock, though at a lower cost. The elephant trunk like stout is for cooling purposes but there might be no rationale in regards to its length. The 4 nozzles on its front were not clearly identified with a function, but they could be interpreted as hydro jet nozzles.

The above is from the Great Mechanics Amphibious MS book, which is full of subjective claims.

I think the Juagg in UC ep4 either retconned and discounted the former speculation of hydro jet nozzles, or maybe some variants had mega particles instead.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by JEFFPIATT » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:23 pm

Well the difference is the zeon forces in unicorn are deploying whatever they could get up and running in addition to what new units got donated to them. The earth bound EF Forces are using older models because they are by late uc an lower priority than the EFSF is in getting newer models also the RGM-86 is not built stock for earth use the RGC-90 is meant to be the earth model of the 86. Besides the Nemo is what the RGM-86 is based on with tweaks from the RX-179 added to it.

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