Lasers in Gundam

[Garuda128]

Ok, so lets suggest they're not using IR. What other comms could they be using that could be affected by minvosky particles?

[toysdream]

Yeah, obviously nobody's going to use a frequency of laser that they know won't work. And since lasers work all the time in Gundam, well...

There are still practical issues with laser communication, though. One of them is that, unlike radio, lasers work via line-of-sight; you have to point the laser directly at whatever you're communicating with, and you can't bounce signals off the ionosphere. So even though people can (and do!) send laser signals all the way across the Earth Sphere, it's pretty useless for communicating with a moving or unknown target.

So, in answer to Garuda's question, the communications method that keeps getting jammed by Minovsky particles would probably be good old-fashioned radio. If you're trying to send a signal over a wide area and you don't have line-of-sight to the receiver, it's this or smoke signals.

Oh, and speaking of lasers, we should all remember one or two famous examples. Hint: they rhyme with "bolony blazer" and "bolar bray".

-- Mark

[Garuda128]

@His Divine Shadow

wait hold on. You can bounce IR beams off of reflective surfaces cuz they're a type of light. I don't know if they beam the laser at a colony's mirrors or something and they reach a fed base. wild guess but totally possible. could work

[His Divine Shadow]

@His Divine Shadow

wait hold on. You can bounce IR beams off of reflective surfaces cuz they're a type of light. I don't know if they beam the laser at a colony's mirrors or something and they reach a fed base. wild guess but totally possible. could work

All lasers are light, they just vary in spectrum frequency and power.

The issue with bouncing lasers off mirrors is that the light will scatter unless it's an extremely powerful beam, one that would actually risk damaging the reflection surface in order to maintain cohesion depending on the distances covered from transmitter to receiver. The examples in MS Igloo have the laser comms at relatively short range for ship-to-ship communication, and are unidirectional from transmitting ship to receiving ship without a middleman or any sort of booster. It's possible the lasers being used for communications are nothing more than a tightbeam lamplight for Morse code. Plus, as Mark pointed out, using lasers means a lot of coordination to ensure that line of sight is maintained for all the parties involved; the more points you have to bounce a beam from, the greater the likelihood that something will be out of alignment and part or all of the message would be missed.

[mcred23]

The logic, it seems, being that such a weapon would trade a high rate-of-fire with lesser effectiveness per hit for one with a slow firing rate, but a probable one-shot kill. How effective it was I can't recall off-hand, but probably on the lower end of the spectrum, given that the point-defence guns seen on the Ra Cailum and Clop types seem to revert to "spray and pray" shell-firing weapons, which looks like a step backwards but in practice doesn't seem to be given how well they could chew through a Geara Doga - and no doubt make Swiss cheese of a Jegan.

That is further reinforced in F91, where we see the secondary guns Clops (Which, in F91's animation, sometimes seem to have fewer guns than the CCA-era lineart!) able to put out massive amounts of beam fire to take down Crossbone MS two or three times. On the other hand, I don't recall the laser turrets we see used in 0083 being all that effective most of the time. Of course, there is a possible pilot quality issue (Zekes in 0083 being all combat veterans who know what to do against ships, while there are some questions on the CV grunt pilot abilities) that affects their performance. But another possible in-universe reason we don't see these laser weapons in use by the time of Zeta is their poor showing against the Delaz Fleet led the Federation to switch to more conventional Minovsky beam weapons.

[Nowhere Man]

The logic, it seems, being that such a weapon would trade a high rate-of-fire with lesser effectiveness per hit for one with a slow firing rate, but a probable one-shot kill. How effective it was I can't recall off-hand, but probably on the lower end of the spectrum, given that the point-defence guns seen on the Ra Cailum and Clop types seem to revert to "spray and pray" shell-firing weapons, which looks like a step backwards but in practice doesn't seem to be given how well they could chew through a Geara Doga - and no doubt make Swiss cheese of a Jegan.

That is further reinforced in F91, where we see the secondary guns Clops (Which, in F91's animation, sometimes seem to have fewer guns than the CCA-era lineart!) able to put out massive amounts of beam fire to take down Crossbone MS two or three times. On the other hand, I don't recall the laser turrets we see used in 0083 being all that effective most of the time. Of course, there is a possible pilot quality issue (Zekes in 0083 being all combat veterans who know what to do against ships, while there are some questions on the CV grunt pilot abilities) that affects their performance. But another possible in-universe reason we don't see these laser weapons in use by the time of Zeta is their poor showing against the Delaz Fleet led the Federation to switch to more conventional Minovsky beam weapons.

Thanks guys. Learn something new everyday.

[Edit: DS already made the "energy efficiency" point.]

[LtFrankie]

I don't know what source he cited, but a friend of mine said the Raketen uses laser guidance to get past the problem with Minovsky particles?

[Nowhere Man]

I don't know what source he cited, but a friend of mine said the Raketen uses laser guidance to get past the problem with Minovsky particles?

Raketen Bazooka? Doubtful that its rounds are laser-guided: even though lasers are unaffected by Minovsky particles, the necessary electronic equipment in each round would need the proper shielding -- shielding which is bulky and expensive.

That doesn't mean, however, that Mobile Suit didn't use laser designators for targeting purposes (IIRC).

[Izayuukan]

Maybe I missed the memo, but why aren't certain lasers affected by Minovsky Particles? I thought that the particles affected the electromagnetic spectrum. Which, if I may add, consists of radio waves and gamma rays and everything in between. So why do some lasers get an exemption? Plot necessity?

[Kenji]

I don't see how lasers are necessary for any plot. Unless the title was "Why Lasers Always Work"... but, even then, you could explain it away as some kind of symbolism.

Here's a better question: If Minovsky Particles affect the whole EM spectrum, then why don't they affect visible light?

Then again, do we ever see Minovsky Particles affecting anything infrared or above?

[toysdream]

Here's a better question: If Minovsky Particles affect the whole EM spectrum, then why don't they affect visible light?

Simple answer to this one: They don't, and they don't.

Minovsky particles only affect the longer wavelengths, mainly in the radio part of the spectrum. They have some effect on infrared, but not enough to prevent heat sensors from working in all the U.C. shows. (This is normally how incoming mobile suits are first detected.) And of course, there's the interference they cause in unshielded circuitry, which seems to be a way of writing guided missiles out of the story. That's basically it.

-- Mark

[Izayuukan]

They have some effect on infrared, but not enough to prevent heat sensors from working in all the U.C. shows. (This is normally how incoming mobile suits are first detected.)

So can I take this to mean that the infra-red wavelengths are only impaired/distorted, putting a maximum range limitation on sensors dependent on how well they can "peer" through the "fog of war" (i.e. Minovsky Particle concentrations)?

If visual light is not distorted, then why doesn't every ship have a telescope the size of the Hubble or larger?

How can a UV laser operate over long distances? Wouldn't the small wave-length preclude this? (Sorry if this question was answered before.)

Edit: Sorry about that last part, just realised that if sunlight can reach us then UV lasers would probably have some range.

[Nowhere Man]

So can I take this to mean that the infra-red wavelengths are only impaired/distorted, putting a maximum range limitation on sensors dependent on how well they can "peer" through the "fog of war" (i.e. Minovsky Particle concentrations)?

Yup.

If visual light is not distorted, then why doesn't every ship have a telescope the size of the Hubble or larger?

Why would they need one that big? They don't have to see supernovas, they just have to identify threats from a great enough distance that they'll have time to respond.

Episode 22 of the original Mobile Suit Gundam actually answers a lot of questions concerning how ships pick up their enemies. In this episode, M'quve sets a trap for the White Base, sending a team of soldiers to weaken the ship by destroying key systems. To accomplish this, the soldiers discard all metallic objects, seemingly to minimize the chances of being picked up on radar and metal detectors.

After they out the Minovsky particle emitters and Electronic Counter Measure systems of the White Base, Mirai rushes to the bridge and asks Marker if the White Base's radar is still functioning, and he replies that it is.

And even later, Oscar remarks that the Dopps that were attacking them have disappeared from their radar.

These indicate that ships still use radar to identify enemies -- the latter two coming right out and saying it, even.

I think that people are taking Minovsky particle interference a little too far. It's not like the entire Earth Sphere is sitting under an omnipresent I-Field at all times, requiring spyglasses and crow's nests and such. In fact, high concentrations of Minovsky particles are a dead giveaway that something's afoot.

Most of the time ships seem to cruise along without smothering themselves in Minovsky particles, only bringing these concentrations up to "combat density" when they encounter an enemy. By this point both players already have a ballpark figure of where the other is, so it's just a matter of spotting them visually and blasting away at them.

[His Divine Shadow]

Minovsky particle density is notoriously short-lived inside the atmosphere, hence the more prevalent use of radar and IR on-surface than in space.

[toysdream]

After they out the Minovsky particle emitters and Electronic Counter Measure systems of the White Base, Mirai rushes to the bridge and asks Marker if the White Base's radar is still functioning, and he replies that it is.

And even later, Oscar remarks that the Dopps that were attacking them have disappeared from their radar.

These indicate that ships still use radar to identify enemies -- the latter two coming right out and saying it, even.

True, but this is after the White Base's Minovsky particle emitters have been destroyed. If the whole ECM system were still running, it would interfere with the White Base's own radar systems. So this episode is kind of a special case.

-- Mark

[Nowhere Man]

True, but this is after the White Base's Minovsky particle emitters have been destroyed. If the whole ECM system were still running, it would interfere with the White Base's own radar systems. So this episode is kind of a special case.

-- Mark

True, true, which is why I said that ships usually release Minovsky particles post-enemy confirmation -- they have to catch them with something. If not radar right off the bat, then perhaps infrared sensors... though I imagine using radar in the absence of heavy Minovsky particle density would be fine.

[Edit: take that back, display doesn't change colors.]

[LtFrankie]

Question.

Why wouldn't say, UV lasers & wired missiles/bombs not work? I imagine all military tech would have EMP shielding, especially for aircraft or they wouldn't have bothered with wired missiles and laser guidance for the Regina

[Nowhere Man]

Question.

Why wouldn't say, UV lasers & wired missiles/bombs not work? I imagine all military tech would have EMP shielding, especially for aircraft or they wouldn't have bothered with wired missiles and laser guidance for the Regina

Nope, they don't. From Gundam Official's glossary entry on Minovsky particles...

A new kind of subatomic particle discovered by the scientist Y.T. Minovsky. The Minovsky particle has near-zero rest mass, and either a positive or negative electrical charge. When these particles are scattered in the air or in open space, they disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation like microwaves and radio waves, and interfere with the operations of electronic circuitry. This phenomenon renders radar detection and long-range wireless communication useless, and requires the installation of bulky and expensive shielding on all electronic equipment, ruling out the use of precision guided weapons. The military use of Minovsky particles thus ushers in a new era of close-range combat.

We do see wire-guided missiles used, though. Side 7's defense forces use wire-guided missiles against Gene and Denim in the first episode of Mobile Suit Gundam. The anti-MS missiles used in the first episode of Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO 2: The Gravity Front are also wire-guided, IIRC.

[mcred23]

We also see wire guided missiles in 08th MS Team. IIRC, this missile launcher used by the 08th in episode 3 was wired guided, and Zeon's Gunship Heli from the same episode also used wire guided missiles, as clearly shown in that picture. Wire guided weapons are the only guided weapons we see regularly used during the OYW (Even in Minovsky Particle affected areas, as IIRC Side 7 was the first episode of MSG), with all the other types being rendered useless (Although some guided weapons are developed and used in the years after the war, so presumably the required shielding is made somewhat smaller and/or cheaper over the years).

[Chavelo]

A friend of mine read that laser guided weapons have trouble with smoke and even some weather conditions. So what would a minovsky particle do? Perhaps the communication lasers ship uses are simply powerful enough to push through. But something mounted on a fighter?