Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

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Newtype87
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:44 pm

AnimeMun wrote:Umm....last time I checked anything that leaves or enters the atmosphere in a normal situation (orbital elevator not counting) glows red due to the friction of going through the different layers of atmosphere. While I'm sure Trans-Am helps, particularly in need of a hurry. I doubt its seriously needed with the proper shielding. Something I'm sure a ship of the Ptolemy II's class has.
I just went back to episode 9, and there are a couple of long-distance shots of the Ptolemy II in Trans-Am looking almost exactly like it does at the end of episode 25. I really don't think the show would use the same effect to indicate two separate things: Trans-Am and friction glowing as it forces through the air.

EDIT:
Episode 9 (warning: big images)
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2544/scr ... 7at650.png
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2544 ... 7at650.png
Episode 25
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5017 ... ransam.jpg (From SonicSP)
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:56 pm

Ok, the issues with the Ep 9 shots is this, where is the stream of green GN particles?
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:16 pm

AnimeMun wrote:Ok, the issues with the Ep 9 shots is this, where is the stream of green GN particles?
Not sure. For the first picture, it could be because we're seeing it as a reflection that's partially obscured and the GN particles are so much smaller and less vibrant than the ship that they don't show up. For the second one, it could be because the ship is basically in space at that point and is starting to coast. They do run out of stored particles shortly after that point in time.

But the Ptolemy still looks the same in both circumstances. But I can't think of any other circumstances of spaceships leaving Earth's atmosphere to compare it to, so the only evidence we can use is the Ptolemy's two launches, one of which we know was in Trans-Am and the other of which is visually indistinguishable from that, despite the lack of a stream of apparent GN particles for the known Trans-Am launch.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:01 am

Hmmm... I guess the rest of this argument is going to have to wait for us to get proper video of an earth to space takeoff. Either from someone looking for some NASA footage or from video of the Virgin Commercial launch of their shuttle next year.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:54 am

Except that I'm fairly certain the red glow in question, as it pertains to real spacecraft during launch, comes from the flame of the burning propellant, not from the spacecraft itself turning red like it does during reentry. By the time the Space Shuttle leaves the atmosphere, for example, its velocity is much smaller than when it reenters the atmosphere (much of the acceleration comes in vacuum), so air resistance isn't sufficient to make it glow or form plasma during launch. And since the Ptolemy II doesn't burn propellant, I think that leaves just one possible cause of a red coloring during launch.

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:38 am

You are probably right Areku, if so then this would be no problem regardless. All I'm saying here is the only way to have absolutely no shadow of a doubt on the usage of Trans-Am for exit velocity at the end of the series that we should watch an actual space launch to see if anything turns red during exit velocity other than the rocket propellant. If it doesn't then that will cement that it is Trans-Am and shut any one doubting it up. I don't think its an unreasonable thing to ask for.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:08 am

Why wait for a new launch when there are plenty of complete launches available on Youtube? Out of all the ones I've watched in my freetime, I've never seen a red glow on the front of the spacecraft.

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:07 pm

Oh? Could you give a good link of a complete launch for the sake of finishing up this particular argument so we could move on please?
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:42 pm

Atlantis, November 2009. Without a trace of forward glow by the time it jettisons the solid boosters (as it exits the stratosphere), it passes the point where such a glow would be most likely. Beyond that point, while its speed may increase significantly and the atmospheric temperature may reach what sound like absurdly high temperatures, these wouldn't be enough to cause a forward glow because, in single-digit Mach numbers, the air density is just too low. While it may visibly create plasma during the descent through the mesosphere, it's simply going too slow during the ascent to create a forward glow.

And for an experience, try starting Dead By April's My Saviour at 09:24 without getting chills. 8)

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:39 pm

Wow, thanks Areku. That is awesome. Shall we move on in this subject then?
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:50 pm

I actually wonder if the ADverse has the technology to launch ships into space anymore. The elevators have existed for quite a while even if they haven't been giving off much or any power, and conceivably they've been the primary means of travel to space for as long as the main stations have existed. The solar elevators are safer and more efficient than using a rocket to get into space, and we've seen civilians and militaries alike using the elevators as transport, even for mobile-suit sized weapons. They probably don't need any of the old shuttles, and even then they'd probably only take you to a lower-orbit station for transfer to a more devoted space transport while the shuttle returns to Earth.

Given the prevalence of mass driver tech in the majority of the rifles, it's possible that they'd abandoned expensive rocket boosters for CE-style mass drivers and shuttles long before the elevators came online. Then again, we never see any evidence for those, so I guess we just have to assume that rockets were the way to go until the elevators came online.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:10 pm

Well, I'd be astounded if they'd lost the technology to launch, but it's much more likely they no longer have the infrastructure to do so on short notice. Why should they? Chemical rockets are damned expensive for what you get out of it. Aside from what might be unnecessary redundancy, there'd be no point to maintaining the capability to launch chemical rockets from the surface; even if on of the elevators were to fail, it'd still be faster to send a vessel up another elevator and send it to its destination.

On an unrelated note, here's some neat footage of a limited "reentry" (Mach 4 at 51 km is much gentler than reentry from orbit). I never had been able to figure out why I like some of Dead By April's music before today, but Losing You fits really well when started at 1:09.

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:23 pm

Areku wrote:Well, I'd be astounded if they'd lost the technology to launch, but it's much more likely they no longer have the infrastructure to do so on short notice. Why should they? Chemical rockets are damned expensive for what you get out of it. Aside from what might be unnecessary redundancy, there'd be no point to maintaining the capability to launch chemical rockets from the surface; even if on of the elevators were to fail, it'd still be faster to send a vessel up another elevator and send it to its destination.
Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by SonicSP » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:55 am

Wouldnt surprise me if they lost the infrastructure as far as nornal technology goes. But of course it also depends on how much things have changed in comventional rocket methods from present till completion of the Elevator.

But perhaps not completely, the AEU elevator was just completed recently after S1 and before S2, so they may have used rockets to a certain extent to help in the contruction im terms of transportation and stuff. Assistance from other elevators probably helps though but I wonder how adsistance they have acquired considering the rivalry nature te blocs have with each other.

They probably may habe gotten assistance from the colonies as well though although Im not sure how many colonies the AEU have (if any), although I know they're lacking behind the Union and HRL.

-----------
GN technology can do it easily though, exiting the atmosphere that is. Gundam Kyrios Gust was mentioned to be able to do it quite easily amd I believe the same can be said of the assault containers in S1, which Setsuna used to enter and exit Earth in S1-22 and 23.

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:46 am

SonicSP wrote:Wouldnt surprise me if they lost the infrastructure as far as nornal technology goes. But of course it also depends on how much things have changed in comventional rocket methods from present till completion of the Elevator.

But perhaps not completely, the AEU elevator was just completed recently after S1 and before S2, so they may have used rockets to a certain extent to help in the contruction im terms of transportation and stuff. Assistance from other elevators probably helps though but I wonder how adsistance they have acquired considering the rivalry nature te blocs have with each other.

They probably may habe gotten assistance from the colonies as well though although Im not sure how many colonies the AEU have (if any), although I know they're lacking behind the Union and HRL.
It is worth noting that we can no longer build Saturn V rockets or Delorean cars. We may know how to build them, but the infrastructure simply doesn't exist anymore to do it. They might have a similar problem in 00. Hm… does anyone remember the timescale for these things? The HRL's elevator has been transmitting power for ten years as of the start of 00, and I'm vaguely remembering that construction began like forty years earlier or something like that. Presumably, the actual elevator part of the solar elevators have been working for much longer than the rest of the array, which would have significantly lightened the workload.

Now, I don't know how space elevators would be built, but I think the geosynchronous station needs to be built first, and then the "cable" run down to Earth to both hold it in place and let the cabs move up and down. I guess that the moon would have been mined for resources, or possibly all of those asteroids hanging around in orbit that Celestial Being keeps using as bases are remnants from the early days of the space elevator's construction. I doubt much in the way of materials could have come from Earth, simply due to the scale of the project: think of all of the space shuttle and other rocket missions needed to build just the tiny ISS. Maybe some crucial components could have been assembled on Earth, but the majority of the work must have been in space.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:19 am

I was actually mentioning this concept with my biological father the other day. Because of the current state of the economy and such things like that. An issue I'm sure was prevalent in 00's world as well considering some of the talk from the Union president in S1 about it finally getting stabilized. They probably ended up doing for their space programs what they did are going to end up doing for our future space programs, dependence upon private investors and contractors. Like I've mentioned a bit earlier, Virgin International just succeeded with initial testing of their own space shuttle and final roll out is occuring next year. Chances are several other entrepenuers may be considering their own space programs.

I'm sure that this next decade will be full of several privately funded shuttles being drafted, built, and tested. When NASA will need to transport goods into space they will outsource to one of these companies and astronauts will be going transported as such.

I would imagine that some will even start work on something more colonizeable starting 50 years from now so some of us may see the beginning of at least space colonies. Although our children will probably end up being the residents of those initial colonies and our great grand-children working on something like the orbital elevator project.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by SonicSP » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:40 am

Newtype87 wrote:Now, I don't know how space elevators would be built, but I think the geosynchronous station needs to be built first, and then the "cable" run down to Earth to both hold it in place and let the cabs move up and down. I guess that the moon would have been mined for resources, or possibly all of those asteroids hanging around in orbit that Celestial Being keeps using as bases are remnants from the early days of the space elevator's construction.
The asteroids were taken from somewhere else I believe (possibly the asteroid belt), done for mining resources for colony development(mentioned in S1-14 note1); so using those for the OE sounds like a good thing to do especially for the post atmosphere parts. They've never mentioned resources being mined from the moon from what I remember, although I'm not ruling it out.

Note1:The episode never mentioned where they were taken from, they just mentioned that they were mineral satellites transported there for the purposes of colony development.
Newtype87 wrote:It is worth noting that we can no longer build Saturn V rockets or Delorean cars.
All we need to do is go back to in time and bring more over. >_>

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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by AnimeMun » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:36 am

But if the two Delorians ever meet they will go boom! *chuckles* I love double entendres.
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Re: Spacecraft capable of atmospheric flight

Post by Newtype87 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:59 am

AnimeMun wrote:I was actually mentioning this concept with my biological father the other day. Because of the current state of the economy and such things like that. An issue I'm sure was prevalent in 00's world as well considering some of the talk from the Union president in S1 about it finally getting stabilized. They probably ended up doing for their space programs what they did are going to end up doing for our future space programs, dependence upon private investors and contractors. Like I've mentioned a bit earlier, Virgin International just succeeded with initial testing of their own space shuttle and final roll out is occuring next year. Chances are several other entrepenuers may be considering their own space programs.

I'm sure that this next decade will be full of several privately funded shuttles being drafted, built, and tested. When NASA will need to transport goods into space they will outsource to one of these companies and astronauts will be going transported as such.

I would imagine that some will even start work on something more colonizeable starting 50 years from now so some of us may see the beginning of at least space colonies. Although our children will probably end up being the residents of those initial colonies and our great grand-children working on something like the orbital elevator project.
I think there are hints that ended up happening in 00: there is at least one linear train company who's name escapes me… um… wait… it's coming to me… Laguna Harvey ran it. But the company exists, and seems to lend some credence to the idea of privately-funded space travel. Moreover, everyone uses the elevators, civilians and military alike: the military probably gets a discount rate, though. And Celestial Being is probably secretly funded by a number of companies, though I remember some reference to Veda manipulating the stock markets to fund CB and Tieria not wanting to do that anymore. A whole lot of funding could be hidden in forty-fifty years of economic upheaval as the elevators are being built. And I thought the economy stabilizing line was referring to the economy stabilizing after the massive expense of the elevators being built, not because of our own economic problems. I'd be very worried about the future if they're still dealing with the current problem 300 years in the future.
SonicSP wrote:
Newtype87 wrote:Now, I don't know how space elevators would be built, but I think the geosynchronous station needs to be built first, and then the "cable" run down to Earth to both hold it in place and let the cabs move up and down. I guess that the moon would have been mined for resources, or possibly all of those asteroids hanging around in orbit that Celestial Being keeps using as bases are remnants from the early days of the space elevator's construction.
The asteroids were taken from somewhere else I believe (possibly the asteroid belt), done for mining resources for colony development(mentioned in S1-14 note1); so using those for the OE sounds like a good thing to do especially for the post atmosphere parts. They've never mentioned resources being mined from the moon from what I remember, although I'm not ruling it out.

Note1:The episode never mentioned where they were taken from, they just mentioned that they were mineral satellites transported there for the purposes of colony development.
Yeah, actually, colony development to handle a burgeoning population makes a lot of sense. We know that they have a few colonies, but it likely got to the point that power was more of a pressing concern. I'm sure that those space colonies were vital in the design and construction of the elevators. Sort of like how the O'Neill stations were intended to assist with the construction of higher-numbered models.
SonicSP wrote:
Newtype87 wrote:It is worth noting that we can no longer build Saturn V rockets or Delorean cars.
All we need to do is go back to in time and bring more over. >_>
I'm sure that GN particles can do that too. *winks*
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