Pre-OYW Zaku training program

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: New Koenigsberg, Side 3

Pre-OYW Zaku training program

My search fu has turned up nothing, but I have a question (or two) of some relevance that I'd love an answer to, hence this topic.

1. Prior to the breakout of the OYW, it's known that Zeon had a Mobile Suit training academy(ies) in Side 3. Given this, then a training program(s) must have been in place for prospective pilots. Is there any information about the specifics of the program(s) in any official capacity, and if so, where might I find them?

2. If such programs existed, obviously there would have had to have been two different types of training involved for MS pilots: zero-G and terrestrial. However, as is evidenced by the rough time of things the MS-06F Zaku II had on Earth's surface during the OYW, necessitating the creations of the J-type Zakus and the Dom family to compensate, could it then be said that pilots were not only given a greater portion of zero-G training than terrestrial, and where/how would terrestrial training have been given if the Zaku was to be kept secret until the last possible minute?

Any and all enlightenment is, as always, most welcome. :mrgreen:
"If you ask me," said the little man to Shadow, "you're something of a monster. Am I right?"
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
User avatar
Nowhere Man
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:27 pm

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

His Divine Shadow wrote:My search fu has turned up nothing, but I have a question (or two) of some relevance that I'd love an answer to, hence this topic.

1. Prior to the breakout of the OYW, it's known that Zeon had a Mobile Suit training academy(ies) in Side 3. Given this, then a training program(s) must have been in place for prospective pilots. Is there any information about the specifics of the program(s) in any official capacity, and if so, where might I find them?

2. If such programs existed, obviously there would have had to have been two different types of training involved for MS pilots: zero-G and terrestrial. However, as is evidenced by the rough time of things the MS-06F Zaku II had on Earth's surface during the OYW, necessitating the creations of the J-type Zakus and the Dom family to compensate, could it then be said that pilots were not only given a greater portion of zero-G training than terrestrial, and where/how would terrestrial training have been given if the Zaku was to be kept secret until the last possible minute?

Any and all enlightenment is, as always, most welcome. :mrgreen:
Training programs existed all right -- I believe under the name "Mobile Training Battalion."

The timeline on Gundam Official gives its creation as sometime late in UC 0075.

Naturally "terrestrial" training was done within the colonies; zero-g training in the vacuum of space.

I'm also pretty sure the EF knew about the Zaku, but didn't consider it a real threat until it was too late. The supplemental material on the Mobile Suit Gundam 08th MS Team DVDs indicates that Zeonic purposefully released promotional shots of its prototype Mobile Suits undergoing basic tests, telling the world that it was all part of developing a new machine for construction purposes.

Naturally the Federation higher-ups, being the arrogant, lazy idiots that they were, didn't really think much of the Mobile Suit until it was too late -- either because they figured the Mobile Suit to truly be for construction; or, more likely, that they thought it wouldn't make much difference even if it was a weapon -- and the Zaku had proved itself to have terrifying combat potential.
Has no real point of view.
Knows not where he's going to.
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
User avatar
SuiseiHiyoko
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:46 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

I can try answer the 2nd question.
Terrestrial training are certainly done in colonies, although since inside of a colony is quite to different to Earth surface, this certainly results in the poor performance of Zeon military at Earth surface. Especially aerial superiority (I read somewhere that EF maintains it's aerial superiority over Zeon, i forgot where), since atmospheric flight are very different than flight inside a colony.
In a war, you have to think two to three steps ahead.
But, not the first step!!
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: New Koenigsberg, Side 3

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

Nowhere Man wrote:
Training programs existed all right -- I believe under the name "Mobile Training Battalion."

The timeline on Gundam Official gives its creation as sometime late in UC 0075.
What I'm actually looking for is more like a course syllabus detailing the training itself, and whether or not any regard at all was given to terrestrial Mobile Suit pilot training that didn't simply involve walking the suit from the hangar to the colony airlock.
SuiseiHiyoko wrote:I can try answer the 2nd question.
Terrestrial training are certainly done in colonies, although since inside of a colony is quite to different to Earth surface, this certainly results in the poor performance of Zeon military at Earth surface. Especially aerial superiority (I read somewhere that EF maintains it's aerial superiority over Zeon, i forgot where), since atmospheric flight are very different than flight inside a colony.
That's about what I figured was the case. Thanks. :D
"If you ask me," said the little man to Shadow, "you're something of a monster. Am I right?"
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

Yeah, the Federation does maintain air superiority and Zeon attempts to make flight-capable MS with the Gouf Flight Types which ultimately failed (even the final H8 Types not having very long range and flight time over previous prototypes).
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
icemaster109
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:11 pm

Gundam [UC] Pilot Training?

Hello, I am new here and I am trying to get into the Gundam UC universe but I hvae a few questions.

My first question is, how are Mobile Suit Pilots trained? (Particularly EFF) They obviously go to some sort of Academy. How long is the training? (especially during the One Year War) All of the pilots are officer ranks for the most part so are they all college graduates or attend some sort of officer's academy? Also is there a difference between space MS pilots and terrestrial MS pilots? or are they generally trained in all areas? What types of things do you think are taught in the piloting school?

Thanks
User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 4716
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

topics merged. carry on.
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

IIRC, many early Federation MS pilots were former space fighter pilots with general piloting experience. The Federation even had the GM Light Armor Type for those former fighter pilots that still preferred faster hit-and-run tactics.

However, I'd also guess that, given how general-purpose the GM was meant to be coupled with how spread the Zeon forces were by that time, the Federation would've trained them in various areas of MS combat; sometimes depending on where they're stationed at. Considering that the bulk of the fighting was taking place in space, though, I'd guess a lot of the training went towards space combat which former space fighter pilots would've already been generally accustomed to from early in the One Year War.
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
User avatar
mcred23
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:12 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Contact:

Re: Gundam [UC] Pilot Training?

icemaster109 wrote:Hello, I am new here and I am trying to get into the Gundam UC universe but I hvae a few questions.

My first question is, how are Mobile Suit Pilots trained? (Particularly EFF) They obviously go to some sort of Academy. How long is the training? (especially during the One Year War)

First, welcome! :P

As for those questions, it's largely assumed that pilots start training on some kind of simulators before moving onto to real mobile suits. For the Federation during the OYW, given how late they began building their mobile suits, it's largely assumed they just had really, really good simulators. We don't know how long training lasts during the OYW, or ever, for the Federation, as we aren't given many clues to it. I'm not sure where most of the training would take place during the war (My guess is Jaburo, and perhaps Luna II as well), but after the war they're main academy is located in Nijmegen, Holland. However, other than it's location, I don't think we have any other information on it (How they are trained, how many are trained there, etc, etc).
icemaster109 wrote:All of the pilots are officer ranks for the most part so are they all college graduates or attend some sort of officer's academy?
Well, it is worth noting that a lot of pilots during the OYW are not officers, many are still Sergeants (Or equal ranks in Naval terms, like Petty Officers), but after the war, almost every pilot seems to hold an officers rank. While they would obviously go through some kind of academy, learning basic skills and how to pilot a mobile suit, I doubt college is a requirement. Most pilots are simply too young for it (For example, Kou Uraki is only 19, Chuck Keith is 20, and most other Federation pilots are rarely older than 24 or so), so I doubt a serious education element is required for the majority of pilots.
icemaster109 wrote:Also is there a difference between space MS pilots and terrestrial MS pilots? or are they generally trained in all areas? What types of things do you think are taught in the piloting school?


I think they are generally trained in both terrestrial and space combat. We see pilots get shifted from one area to the other fairly often, and when fighting in a space colony, you'd need a little bit of terrestrial combat knowledge. Because of those things, I'd think at least basic mobile suit pilot training by the Federation would teach its pilots about both areas to some degree, and that once the pilot is assigned somewhere, they'd probably get some more practice in the enviroment they'll mostly be expected to operate in.
HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:IIRC, many early Federation MS pilots were former space fighter pilots with general piloting experience. The Federation even had the GM Light Armor Type for those former fighter pilots that still preferred faster hit-and-run tactics.
Well, we know there was a decent amount of former fighter pilots (I've never heard it claimed that more space fighter pilots shifted over, although that would make some sense) who went over to mobile suits (MSV name Gary Rogers, and likely 08th MS Team's Terry Sanders), but I'm not sure how huge a group this was. It was obviously large enough to get a varient built for them, the 50-odd Light Armor GMs, but I'm not sure how big the group of former fighter pilots was in the grand total of EFF MS pilots.
I must betray Stalindog!!!

RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')
User avatar
Brave Fencer Kirby
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm

Re: Gundam [UC] Pilot Training?

mcred23 wrote:We don't know how long training lasts during the OYW, or ever, for the Federation, as we aren't given many clues to it.
Well, we do have at least one clue to this: if we want to take Shiro's nightmare/flashback sequence as being literally true, then he was already in the EFF when the war began, and it's not until October that he's shipped out to take command of the 08th MS Team. Operation V, the Federation's crash program to kickstart their MS development, is launched in March, so if we assume they launched a pilot training program at the same time, then that would give us six months of MS training.

Of course, by the time Shiro shows up, the 08th MS Team has been in combat long enough for at least one commander to have a nervous breakdown, so either training time isn't actually that long and Shiro was delayed for some reason, or the original 08th MS Team members went into combat without being fully trained. So yeah, the "six months" number isn't exactly rock solid, but may be the best we can come up with.

Naturally, post-OYW, I'd imagine that pilot training is somewhat more leisurely (and thorough), so it'd probably take a lot longer than that.
Fighting evil so you don't have to!
User avatar
Nowhere Man
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:27 pm

Re: Gundam [UC] Pilot Training?

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
mcred23 wrote:We don't know how long training lasts during the OYW, or ever, for the Federation, as we aren't given many clues to it.
Well, we do have at least one clue to this: if we want to take Shiro's nightmare/flashback sequence as being literally true, then he was already in the EFF when the war began, and it's not until October that he's shipped out to take command of the 08th MS Team. Operation V, the Federation's crash program to kickstart their MS development, is launched in March, so if we assume they launched a pilot training program at the same time, then that would give us six months of MS training.

Of course, by the time Shiro shows up, the 08th MS Team has been in combat long enough for at least one commander to have a nervous breakdown, so either training time isn't actually that long and Shiro was delayed for some reason, or the original 08th MS Team members went into combat without being fully trained. So yeah, the "six months" number isn't exactly rock solid, but may be the best we can come up with.

Naturally, post-OYW, I'd imagine that pilot training is somewhat more leisurely (and thorough), so it'd probably take a lot longer than that.
When Shiro asks Karen how long she's been in Southeast Asia, she replies "three months," which puts her there in late July/early August. I'm doubting that she was a Mobile Suit pilot that early. Even so, trial production of the RX-79 Gundam did begin in July so I guess it's possible. Pretty unlikely, but possible.

The timeline on Gundam Unofficial also indicates that the EF began training Mobile Suit pilots back on April 1st, UC 0079. So if we assume that these first trainees went on to pilot pre-mass production Mobile Suits, training is anywhere between three-five months (making them ready for action around July-September)? That fits with what Karen tells Shiro, even if I rebel against the idea that there were EF Mobile Suits running around in Southeast Asia back in July.

The timeline also gives the roll out date for the EF's first "prototype mass production Mobile Suit" (citing the MG RGM-79 GM Ver 2.0 manual) at being in August, which is also in the above interval. Not sure what they mean by this one, though. Are they referring to the [E]-type? The [G]-type? Maybe something else entirely? Somebody else will have to answer that...
Has no real point of view.
Knows not where he's going to.
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
User avatar
mcred23
Posts: 4200
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:12 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

It's been mentioned a few times that the three months comment isn't about Karen being a mobile suit pilot. Timeline wise it's impossible, as no Federation suits enter combat until after the RX-78-2 does in mid-September. I'm not sure what else she would be doing in that time (Doctor stuff?), although it seems to imply that she was basically trained in the field. Otherwise, it could imply she was trained as a MS pilot, but then the Federation withheld their use in combat for months, but that seems highly unlikely given that the entire point of the RX-79[G] and RGM-79[G] is to serve as stopgaps against the Zekes. So I'm not really sure what to make out of Karen's comment. :)
I must betray Stalindog!!!

RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')
Antkowiak
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:39 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

As far as the Federation goes, remember, most of their GM pilot training was created from the downloaded files from Amuro's sorties via the Gundam's learning computer. Therefore, the Federation had ready to use data on most of the environments, and also, the combat data on capabilities of stuff like the MS-06F, MS-06S, YMS-07B, and MS-09. The Federation basically had the only real MS to MS combat data of the war at the point that they were training Cadets and reassigned pilots to use Mobile Suits, so theoretically, the process could have been much quicker than the experiences of the Zeon Defense forces who learned using flawed predecessors of the MS-05.
User avatar
Deacon Blues
Posts: 1417
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

His Divine Shadow wrote:1. Prior to the breakout of the OYW, it's known that Zeon had a Mobile Suit training academy(ies) in Side 3. Given this, then a training program(s) must have been in place for prospective pilots. Is there any information about the specifics of the program(s) in any official capacity, and if so, where might I find them?
Gundam the Origin has Char and Garma attending a training academy circa UC0074. There's a campus layout on page six of Volume 11 for reference. It's the "Space Forces Government Training Academy". The story starts out with them (and other prospective pilots) running laps, playing basketball, schooling, target practice, etc. Following that, they have a sort of "wilderness survival" assignment. After that, a sort of hyped up "capture the flag" game. There's one of those eight-wheeled troop transports, a Type 61 tank and a pillbox on a ridge they're trying to capture. Unfortunately from this point on it's just... "hey! we have mobile suits now!".

Furthermore, according to the "Plot to Assassinate Gihren" manga, there appears to be an entire colony devoted to mobile suit training. The terrain in the colony is similar to that of a desert, with small valleys and cliff formations. Lance Garfield, a MS training instructor, is there with some other recruits late in the war (right before A Baoa Qu fell), showing that they still trained pilots even then. The only weird thing is the Zaku types they had.

Not sure if that helps you or not...
User avatar
Nowhere Man
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:27 pm

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

I'm not entirely sure, but isn't it established that the 08th Team's previous commander lasted only "about a month" or something? I can't remember, and I don't have the DVDs on-hand right now. If they do say that, however, it implies that the 08th Team has been operating since at least late September/early October...

Antkowiak wrote:As far as the Federation goes, remember, most of their GM pilot training was created from the downloaded files from Amuro's sorties via the Gundam's learning computer. Therefore, the Federation had ready to use data on most of the environments, and also, the combat data on capabilities of stuff like the MS-06F, MS-06S, YMS-07B, and MS-09.
That's not pilot training, though. That's data collection for the mass production models. Pilots still needed to be trained. :wink:
The Federation basically had the only real MS to MS combat data of the war at the point that they were training Cadets and reassigned pilots to use Mobile Suits, so theoretically, the process could have been much quicker than the experiences of the Zeon Defense forces who learned using flawed predecessors of the MS-05.
Actually, the MS-05A Zaku I began full-scale production in July of UC 0075; the Mobile Training Battalion was formed that November. They were almost certainly using the Zaku I to train their pilots.

As for the Federation, it seems that even with the combat data obtained from the White Base (which was most often out of reach), they still lacked detailed knowledge on Mobile Suit combat tactics, which is integral for any combat pilot. Obtaining combat data for the development of efficient combat tactics seems to be one of the directives of "experimental units" like You Kajima's Marmot Team or Matt Healy's Delta Team -- in addition to testing new models.
Mixx Manga's Release of 'Mobile Suit Gundam The Blue Desinty' wrote:The key to the Federation's strategy was the mass-produced Mobile Suit labeled RGM-79 GM. However, the Federation still lacked the ability to efficiently deploy the Mobile Suits. Such ability could only be gained through experience. Thus, a Mobile Suit team was designated for battle deployment. This special unit was permitted to act independently of the main troops.
Tokyopop's Release of 'Mobile Suit Gundam Lost War Chronicles' wrote:The Earth Federation's technological resources were superior, but they were clearly lacking a strategic knowledge of war. As a result, the Earth Federation created a Mobile Suit unit for the purpose of collecting and analyzing data in combat conditions. This unit was subjected to dangerous, unpredictable conditions throughout the world. As a result, they were known as the Experimental Unit.
Both of these units don't seem to see action until around early- to mid-November, either, so apparently the Federation took a kind of "learn as you go" approach: train pilots to operate the machines, collect data for operating systems... and figure out everything else later.

Come to think of it, this makes me think of a conversation in the first episode of 08th MS Team where Shiro asks the other recruits on the transport why they haven't been training, and one of them replies that they "don't need to if they're just fighting the Zeon" (or something of that manner). Based on this reply, and the fact that Karen doesn't seem to have been a Mobile Suit pilot upon first arriving in Southeast Asia, I'd say that 08th MS Team is trying to tell us that the EF was kind of just throwing people in Mobile Suits. Due to a lack of "trained" pilots, perhaps? This would also be symptomatic of a "learn as you go" attitude.
Has no real point of view.
Knows not where he's going to.
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
User avatar
Brave Fencer Kirby
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

Someone mentioned to me that Mark's Gundam Unofficial timeline has a few things to say about Zeon's training program. While it's not particularly detailed, it does at least set a schedule for how things went down.

Nowhere Man already mentioned that the Mobile Training Battalion was officially formed in November of 0075.
In May of 0076, they secretly begin training for combat maneuvers. Presumably this is important because mobile suits at this point were supposed to be construction vehicles.
February 0078 has the odd note that "Inter-colony transportation accidents become frequent", with a footnote that this is actually due to secret maneuvers by Zeon mobile suits. Either they're specifically going out and blowing up people just to see if they can, or else they're shooting down anyone who happens to spot them doing maneuvers in open space. Either way, nice guys.
In October 0078, the Zeon military enters a state of mobilization, and is divided into Dozle's Space Attack Force and Kycilia's Mobile Assault Force. I imagine that this puts an end to dedicated training time for active-duty units.
And January 0079, naturally, marks the beginning of the One Year War.
Fighting evil so you don't have to!
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: New Koenigsberg, Side 3

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

Deacon Blues wrote:
Gundam the Origin has Char and Garma attending a training academy circa UC0074. There's a campus layout on page six of Volume 11 for reference. It's the "Space Forces Government Training Academy". The story starts out with them (and other prospective pilots) running laps, playing basketball, schooling, target practice, etc. Following that, they have a sort of "wilderness survival" assignment. After that, a sort of hyped up "capture the flag" game. There's one of those eight-wheeled troop transports, a Type 61 tank and a pillbox on a ridge they're trying to capture. Unfortunately from this point on it's just... "hey! we have mobile suits now!".

Furthermore, according to the "Plot to Assassinate Gihren" manga, there appears to be an entire colony devoted to mobile suit training. The terrain in the colony is similar to that of a desert, with small valleys and cliff formations. Lance Garfield, a MS training instructor, is there with some other recruits late in the war (right before A Baoa Qu fell), showing that they still trained pilots even then. The only weird thing is the Zaku types they had.

Not sure if that helps you or not...
That actually does. I was familiar with the Gundam Origin story, but the other one you referenced I'm not familiar with and will now hunt down. :D
"If you ask me," said the little man to Shadow, "you're something of a monster. Am I right?"
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

As far as the duration of training, I note that Bernard Wiseman is conscripted as part of a mass student mobilization in September of U.C. 0079. Three months later, he's entering combat as a Zaku pilot. So that seems to be the bare minimum for Zeon at its most desperate.

It's also mentioned that, around the start of the war, Ian Graden was teaching mobile suit pilots to fight under gravity as part of a training corps. So it seems like, even at this point, Zeon was already preparing for a possible Earth invasion. I'm not sure where this training took place, though.

As for the Federation Forces, their first batch of mobile suit pilots have been in training for a while as part of Operation V. Once they start deploying large numbers of GMs, though, it seems like they start reassigning people from the conventional forces - former space fighter pilots, tank drivers, etc - with a pretty minimal amount of additional training.

-- Mark
User avatar
AnimeMun
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:18 pm
Location: Driftin' all over
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

If I remember right the Fed. Forces did capture a few Zaku-I and Zaku-II early on in the war so they probably studied how they worked and developed the basic simulator for that combining their control scheme with how a Zaku works. I think they even used some Zakus in combat until they had the GM line finished and ready to use.

As for the actual training regimen, Kai and Hayato were trained on the spot within days of their forced enlistment. Sure Hayato was only a gunner until Ryu kicked the bucket but he was studying the use on the same core fighter based simulator. So I guess that when they developed the simulator system they designed it with the thought that MS worked just like fighter planes.
A supporter of the HARO mafia.

The Cross-Culture Hero.

This should probably be a secret but... MY NAME IS ANIME-MUN!
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Pre-OYW Zaku training program

AnimeMun wrote:If I remember right the Fed. Forces did capture a few Zaku-I and Zaku-II early on in the war so they probably studied how they worked and developed the basic simulator for that combining their control scheme with how a Zaku works. I think they even used some Zakus in combat until they had the GM line finished and ready to use.
IIRC, the anime did show someone, I forget who, pointing over things in a diagram of what looked like the inner workings of a Zaku I or II. There was also the Zanny that used for collecting data.

And they mostly likely did (and still do) used captured MS for training, as shown in 0083 with the few Zaku II F2s and, at the end, Keith in a Gelgoog Marine.
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
Post Reply