Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

[toysdream]

Can someone give a list of all the new specs?

Yeah, I think it's time for a summing-up! Here's what we have so far, plus a couple of new observations on the Rick Dom and Perfect Zeong.



MS-06F Zaku II
Thruster output: 18,400 kg x 2 (backpack), 3,100 kg x 2 (feet)
Total output: 43,000 kg

Note: Foot thruster outputs are identical to the F2 type.


MS-06S Zaku II
Thruster output: 48,500 kg (backpack), 3,100 kg x 2 (feet), UNKNOWN (legs)
Total output: 54,700 kg + UNKNOWN (legs)

Note: Recent specs for the J type also indicate that it has a total thruster output of 48,400 or 48,500 kg. Since it has no foot thrusters, this suggests its backpack has the same output as the S type.


MS-06R-1A Zaku II
Base weight: 56.8 tons
Full weight: 76.8 tons
Thruster output: 21,800 kg x 2 (backpack), 3,100 kg x 2 (feet), 4,500 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 49,800 kg + 27,000 kg (legs) = 76,800 kg


MS-06R-2 Zaku II
Base weight: 58.2 tons
Full weight: 81.0 or 82.0 tons (depending on weapons payload)
Thruster output: 25,000 kg x 2 (backpack), 3,100 kg x 2 (feet), UNKNOWN (legs)
Total output: 56,200 kg + UNKNOWN (legs)

Note: Although it's normally shown carrying a Dom bazooka, the R-2 type is supposed to have a smaller weapons payload than the Rick Dom, so the lower weight is probably more appropriate. The leg thrusters are borrowed from the prototype MS-11, and should be more powerful than those of the R-1A type but less powerful than those of the Gelgoog. Depending on the depiction, it's possible that only the thrusters on the outside and back of the legs are new, and the ones on the inside are unchanged from the R-1A.


MS-09 Dom
Base weight: 62.6 tons
Full weight: 81.8 tons
Mass ratio: 1.19 (assuming weapons payload of 6.0 tons)
Thruster output: 21,800 kg x 2 (back), 7,300 kg x 2 (feet), 12,400 kg x 3 (skirt), 7,200 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 58,200 kg + 37,200 kg (skirt) + 43,200 kg (legs) = 138,600 kg

Note: The specs in Gundam Century list its propulsion system as 95.4 tons x 2. Thus I chose the skirt thruster output so that the total thrust (excluding leg thrusters) is 95,400 kg. Foot thruster outputs are identical to the Dom Tropen.


MS-09F/TROP Dom Tropen
Thruster output: 22,000 kg x 2 (back), 7,300 kg x 2 (feet), UNKNOWN (skirt), UNKNOWN (legs)
Total output: 58,600 kg + UNKNOWN (skirt & legs)


MS-09G Dowadge
Thruster output: UNKNOWN (back), 7,300 kg x 2 (feet), 9,300 kg x 5 (skirt), 7,200 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 104,300 kg + UNKNOWN (back)


MS-09R Rick Dom
Base weight: 63.8 tons
Full weight: 90.0 tons
Mass ratio: 1.29 (assuming weapons payload of 6.0 tons)
Thruster output: 53,000 kg (back & feet), UNKNOWN (skirt), 7,200 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 53,000 kg + UNKNOWN (skirt) + 43,200 kg (legs) = 96,200 kg + UNKNOWN (skirt)

Note: The specs chart in the Gundam 0080 Visual Comic lists the back thrusters as 22,000 kg x 2 (just like the Dom Tropen), in which case the foot thrusters would be rated at 4,500 kg x 2. Skirt thrusters should be bigger than those of the original Dom, but their combined output should be less than the five thrusters of the Rick Dom II. I wrote up sample specs where the skirt thrusters are rated at 13,000 kg x 3 and 14,400 kg x 3. But since the specs in Gundam Century indicate its total thrust is just over 980 tons, I'm tempted to divide this by ten and say that the total thrust (excluding leg thrusters) is 98,000 kg, in which case the skirt thrusters would be rated at 15,000 kg apiece.


MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II
Thruster output: 21,000 kg x 2 (back), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 9,800 kg x 5 (skirt), 2,500 kg x 2 (tail?), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 56,000 kg + 54,000 kg (skirt & tail) + 42,000 kg (legs) = 152,000 kg

Note: The tail thrusters are a kludge for compatibility with the Gelgoog Jaeger specs. Nonetheless, these little thrusters are listed in the original Gundam 0080 specs, so it seems plausible that they correspond to something.


MS-14Jg Gelgoog Jaeger
Thruster output: 24,500 kg x 3 (backpack), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 9,800 kg x 5 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 87,500 kg + 49,000 kg (skirt) + 42,000 kg (legs) = 178,500 kg


MSN-02 Zeong
Base weight: 151.2 tons
Full weight: 231.9 tons
Mass ratio: 1.53 (assuming no weapons payload)
Thruster output: 93,500 kg x 2 (main thrusters), UNKNOWN (skirt), UNKNOWN (chest)
Total output: 187,000 kg + UNKNOWN (skirt & chest)


MSN-02 Perfect Zeong
Base weight: 317.2 tons
Full weight: 421.2 tons
Mass ratio: 1.33 (assuming no weapons payload)
Thruster output: 93,500 kg x 2 (feet), UNKNOWN (skirt), UNKNOWN (legs), UNKNOWN (chest)
Total output: 187,000 kg + UNKNOWN (skirt, legs & chest)

Note: Base weight as per MS Encyclopedia. For the full weight, I used the figure listed in Gundam Century for the original Zeong. This means the Perfect Zeong carries 104 tons of propellant, versus 80.7 tons for the original version. That's not a big increase, so perhaps some propellant tanks have been removed from the skirt to make room for the leg mechanisms.


-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Checking the most recent info on the MS-06A (MSV-R), MS-06F (MG ver 2.0), MS-06F2 (HGUC) and the MS-06S (MG ver 2.0 and MSV-R), we seem to have a problem regarding the number of verniers.

The MS-06A is depicted without any leg verniers, like the MS-06F as originally depicted on MSG. Then the MS-06F, which was first depicted without verniers on it's legs, then the MG and PG versions depicted it with 2 verniers on the back of each leg and finally the MG ver 2.0 depicted it with 4 verniers around each leg, and 2 more on the top of it's backpack, which know looks like the one used by the F2-type. The MS-06F2 is still depicted with the same backpack and the two regular verniers on each leg plus one large one outer face of each leg.

I mentioned the S-type since both MSV-R and the MG ver 2.0 both agree on the S-type having 5 verneirs on each leg. I should note that while the MSV-R version uses an old-style backpack with only 2 thrusters and no verniers. The MG ver 2.0 is an improved model with no verniers either and I suppose that the backpack could be something especially made for Char's unit and not the standard backpack of the S-type.

I basically have 2 questions:

1- Which should we consider the number of verniers of the MS-06C? The same as the A-type? Same as the MG ver 2.0 F-type? Or maybe consider it having the same number as the old MG F-type, which could show a transition of the upgrades between the 3 models: A -> C -> F, with the increase in the number of verniers as one of the upgrades.

2- Regarding the F2-type, as I mentioned the current F-type shows a more direct relation between the 2 models, namely the verniers on top of the backpack and those on the front of the legs. However it bugs me that the F-type now has more verniers than it's upgraded version, which leads me to my question: regarding the verniers on the rear of the legs, are the large verniers on the F2-type more efficient than the 2 regular verniers per leg of the F-type?

[toysdream]

I don't hold out much hope for a coherent number-of-verniers theory. Although they keep going back and adding more verniers onto the Zaku II (at least the Master Grade versions; the HG-UC kit has no verniers at all), the Gundam and Dom don't seem to have any in their newest incarnations, so it's not like they're being terribly consistent.

Personally, I might look at MS Igloo as the closest thing to a current official source here, since it at least counts as a "filmed work". Igloo doesn't give the Rick Dom, Gelgoog, or GM any visible verniers, and the F type Zaku II only has two on each leg, which seems to be the only deviation from the original anime designs as far as vernier placement is concerned.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

Let's nudge this along a little further with a look at the Gelgoog and its siblings...


An Easy Case
Let's start with thruster outputs. As I mentioned earlier, we can pretty much recycle our Rick Dom II figures for the Gelgoog Jaeger, which makes sense given that they're meant to use the same standard parts. Going by the official specs, the Jaeger has 73,500 kg of thrust in its backpack and 105,000 kg in its body, and this seems like a reasonable total even if we're distributing it differently. So I'd propose the following breakdown:

MS-14Jg: 24,500 kg x 3 (back), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 9,800 kg x 5 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)

The Gundam 0083 specs for the Gelgoog Marine only cover the backpack and foot thrusters, ignoring the skirt and leg devices. The leg thrusters of the Gelgoog series are seldom used, or even visible, in the animation, and Gelgoog variants with backpack thrusters tend to use their skirt thrusters only for the occasional upward boost. So the 0083 approach is fairly reflective of what we see in the animation, and a Gelgoog Jaeger spec'd out in 0083 terms would be credited with only 87,500 kg of thrust. Conversely, a Gelgoog Marine spec'd out in 0080 terms would have roughly 90 tons of extra thrust from its skirt and leg thrusters, but since it uses the same three skirt thrusters as the original Gelgoog, the exact figure would be a little different.

Incidentally, the Gelgoog Marine and Gelgoog Jaeger also have extra sub-thrusters on the tail of their skirt. I've never seen these listed in any of the specs, so I'm not sure how much output they should have, but Gelgoog mavens may want to factor these in as well.


The Standard Model
According to the current official specs, the original Gelgoog has a total thruster output of 61,500 kg. But which thrusters does this include?

Since the standard Gelgoog has no backpack, the Gundam 0083 standard doesn't really apply. It would be possible to credit this output entirely to the three skirt thrusters, giving them an output of 20,500 kg apiece, but this seems pretty high compared to the other machines we've discussed above. What's more, most of the other official specs include the foot thrusters, so I suggest we account for these here as well. And of course, a complete accounting should include those seldom-used leg thrusters, which enable Masai's vintage Gelgoog to take off into the sky like a rocket in that one episode of Gundam ZZ.

If the Gelgoog Jaeger has a total of 63,000 kg of thrust in its skirt and feet, and 42,000 kg more in its legs, then this gives us a pretty good ballpark figure for the original Gelgoog as well. I also note that the Gundam Century specs for the Gelgoog credit it with 480 tons of thrust, so it's tempting to divide this by ten and say the skirt thrusters contribute 48,000 kg of thrust, or 16,000 kg apiece, which leaves 13,500 kg to be distributed among the four foot thrusters. Personally, though, I'm inclined to give them an output of 15,700 kg each - identical to the thrusters in the ReGelgu's shoulder binders, which means that the original skirt thrusters of the ReGelgu have simply been relocated to the binders! This leaves 14,400 kg for the foot thrusters, which breaks down nicely into 3,600 kg per thruster.

What about the leg thrusters? Presumably these should be in the same ballpark as the 7,000 kg units used in the Rick Dom and Gelgoog Jaeger. But I'm tempted to do another specs-shuffle, borrowing the full weight spec of 102 tons from the classic Gelgoog specs and using this figure for the total thrust instead. This means the leg thrusters contribute a total of 40,500 kg, which doesn't divide cleanly by six, but happens to be exactly 50% more than the output of the MS-06R-1A thrusters from which they're derived. So here's my very iffy proposal:

MS-14A: 15,700 kg x 3 (skirt), 3,600 kg x 4 (feet), 6,750 kg x 6 (legs)

Which gives us a grand total of 102,000 kg, slightly less than a backpack-less Gelgoog Jaeger. Going by the current official full weight, the original Gelgoog would have a peak thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.39, virtually identical to a Rick Dias.


Sending In The Marines
And then we have the Gelgoog Marine series. I'll assume they use the same leg thrusters as the Gelgoog Jaeger (since they're United Maintenance Plan designs) and the same skirt thrusters as the original Gelgoog, giving us:

MS-14F: 20,500 kg x 2 (backpack), 15,700 kg x 3 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
MS-14Fs: 20,500 kg x 3 (backpack), 15,700 kg x 3 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 7,000 kg x 8 (legs)

If you'll allow me the liberty, I'll round off the total skirt thruster output to 47,000 kg, giving us the following grand totals: 144,000 kg for the standard Gelgoog Marine, and 178,500 kg for the commander type. That latter figure is exactly the same as the Gelgoog Jaeger, which makes sense given that the rest of their specs are pretty much identical as well. I'll confess that my estimate for the skirt thruster output was chosen to yield exactly that result.


Weight A Minute
As with the Dom series, the weights for the Gelgoog series don't match. The original Gelgoog, and the Marine and Jaeger versions, have a base weight of just over 40 tons. The official specs for the B type, though, give it a base weight of 53.5 tons. There are conflicting specs for the Gelgoog Cannon, but based on the numbers given for the C-1A variant in the MSV-R series, it looks like the figure of 55.8 tons given in Gundam Mechanics is now the consensus number. The Gyan, meanwhile, has a base weight of 52.7 tons.

As with the Dom series, I find the higher numbers more plausible. There's no particular reason the Gelgoog would be so much lighter than the Dom - and even the Gundam - and the current official specs leave it with an implausibly huge propellant capacity. My suggestion, then, is to bump up the base weight of the original Gelgoog by ten tons, giving it a base weight of 52.1 tons. If we hold the full weight spec unchanged, and assume it has the same weapons payload as the Galbaldy Beta (i.e. 6.0 tons), then the standard Gelgoog carries 15.2 tons of propellant and has a mass ratio of 1.26. That's pretty much the same propellant capacity as the Galbaldy Beta, and a lot less than the Rick Dom, which helps explain why so many Gelgoog variations have extra propellant tanks.


-- Mark

[flamingtroll]

Bring this thread back because I notice something new going through the Gundam Mechanical Archive for Unicorn. They updated Jegan's thrust value:

RGM-89D:
empty weight: 21.3t
total thrust: 62000kg (note: this is the same as a GM II )

Katoki also did a lineart for the akitaka's stark jegan and it was given the same stat (just as the original jegan stat)

RGM-89S (original version):
empty weight: 22.1t
total thrust: 62000kg

The actual katoki version of Stark Jegan though has the following

RGM-89S:
empty weight: 28.4t
total thrust: 76600kg


Since the new value is given to both the original stark jegan and jegan-D, I think it's safe to assume that it is the same value for the normal RGM-89. It would be a more belivable value than the sorry 48700kg total in the original Jegan. The new value will give give Jegan a 1.32G acceleration with a full weight of 47.3t, closer to GMIII 's 1.45G. Adding the difference between the 2 version of 89S's weight to derive the katoki 89S's full weight of 61.8 + (28.4-22.1) = 68.1t would give it 1.12G acceleration.

[toysdream]

I've noticed the recent tinkering with Jegan specs as well, but I think I'd draw slightly different conclusions. Let's travel back in time to the late 1980s...


The original specs for the Jegan include the following. (There's a reason I'm focusing on just these three categories.)

RGM-89 Jegan
Base weight: 21.3t
Thruster output: 12,700 kg x 1, 9,200 kg x 2, 8,800 kg x 2
Sensor radius: 14,200m

The first edition of the MS Encyclopedia also featured three original CCA mobile suit variations - the Re-GZ Custom, Stark Jegan, and Geara Doga Heavy Weapons Type - all with detailed specs. Here are the corresponding figures for the Stark Jegan:

RGM-89S Stark Jegan
Base weight: 22.1 tons
Thruster output: 12,000 kg x 1, 9,200 kg x 4, 4,400 kg x 3
Sensor radius: 20,700m

So that's a grand total of 48,700 kg of thrust for the original Jegan, and 62,000 kg for the Stark Jegan.

Later on, when they started listing specs in the color section of the MS Encyclopedia, somebody went through and made up figures for all the CCA-MSV designs. Somehow they didn't notice that there were already specs for the three machines from the previous edition, and so they all got new numbers. So here's the new value for the Stark Jegan:

RGM-89S Stark Jegan
Base weight: 28.4 tons

The Stark Jegan design that Katoki created for Gundam Unicorn is technically a different machine, a conversion kit that can be attached to the RGM-89D rather than a specially customized mobile suit. In any case, they used the MS Encyclopedia's "new" specs for the Stark Jegan.


In the last year or so, I've noticed a lot of sources (including Futabasha's "GM Book" and the newest edition of the MS Encyclopedia) crediting the original Jegan with 61,400 kg of thrust. Apparently what happened was that they counted the 12,700 kg thruster twice, which I guess would magically turn it into a 25,400 kg thruster.

You'll notice that the "Mechanical Archives" book actually lists two sets of specs for the RGM-89D Jegan; the English specs list its thrust and sensor radius as 61,400 kg and 14,200m respectively, as per the original Jegan, while the Japanese specs say 62,000 kg and 16,800m. I think the Japanese ones are the correct ones, and I've seen these specs in other recent sources. The Gundam UC version of the Stark Jegan - which is based on the RGM-89D - has the same sensor radius, and 76,600 kg of thrust. And finally, there's also a profile for the original version of the Stark Jegan, which lists the same specs that appeared in the first edition of the MS Encyclopedia.

The specs listed for the original version of the Stark Jegan, then, don't indicate a mix-up with the standard Jegan; they just show that somebody finally went back and looked at the original specs. The fact that the RGM-89D and the original-flavor RGM-89S both have 62,000 kg of thrust is purely a coincidence.


One last observation. If you compare the original specs for the Jegan and Stark Jegan, you'll see that they use the same leg thrusters and a roughly similar main backpack thruster, but the Stark Jegan has an extra pair of leg thrusters and replaces the two smaller backpack thrusters with three tiny ones on its backpack stabilizers, for a total thrust increase of 13,300 kg. The new Stark Jegan, on the other hand, has 14,600 kg more than the RGM-89D on which it's based. Based on the line art art, the new version has the exact same main backpack thruster as the RGM-89D - it's literally the same backpack with some different attachments swapped in - and I think the rest of the difference can be attributed to slightly more powerful leg thrusters, as follows.

RGM-89D: 25,400 kg x 1, 9,500 kg x 2, 8,800 kg x 2
RGM-89S: 25,400 kg x 1, 9,500 kg x 4, 4,400 kg x 3

These add up to the official totals of 62,000 kg and 76,600 kg, respectively, and mean that the tail stabilizers of the new Stark Jegan are identical to the old one.

-- Mark

[Black Knight]

I hate it when these fun threads crop up and I'm incommunicado...

Re: Gouf Weight

Couldn't the increase in the base weight of the Gouf over the Zaku be attributed to a heavier frame (structural & armor)? After all, most users of the Gouf display a rather more physical fighting style than most terrestrial Zaku pilots. And it would be of benefit (possibly a requirement) with the reported increase in thrust for jump-jetting. Mark already noted that the Flight Types would naturally go the opposite route, though the extra thrusters & other specialized flight equipment would render these gains from a lighter frame moot -- wasn't the H8 supposed to use some Gundarium? That would clearly be an attempt to reduce weight while maintaining strength.

All the stuff about Terrestrial MS being lighter than space-use MS should clearly only apply to environmental variants of the same basic design, such as the Zaku F & J. Sure, lots of stuff could be quickly deleted from the F-type design to make the J-type lighter, but it seems likely that, much like some of the Astray lineup, a MS designed originally for space might discover that its internal structure was insufficient for sustained rough useage under gravity. The MS version of human bone-loss in microgravity. There's no reason why a Gouf has to have a lighter weight than a Zaku; it's no Zaku, boy, no Zaku.

Re: Jegans

Mark, I thought the Stark was always, even the original -89S CCA-MSV design, supposed to be an add-on kit, based on what's been reported from the basic Jegan kit manual, about how the basic Jegan was too lightly armored to engage warships, but that wasn't considered a problem because it was easy to add-on armor kits & weapons? Is that going out the window now?

I'm a trifle annoyed that the Federation has managed to field a brand new, and improved, version of the Jegan by '96 (let's not even get into the ReZEL). It doesn't fit with the cash-strapped mindset of the Federation we all know and love, who'll keep using MS long after they're obsolete because they simply don't have enough money to replace everything. Though, as we're seeing, many MS probably aren't as "obsolete" as fans thought. Since Londo Bell got most of the first batch of original Jegans, it perhaps makes sense that they'd get the first D-models, as well. The basic "A-type" Jegans were doubtless handed down to lesser units when Londo Bell upgraded.


Re: Post-OYW Federation MS usage

Too, the idea that the Naval Review in 0083 shows GMs because it was meant to display Federation power works wonderfully, and reinforces the use of all those older MS in the Gryps & Rock Zeek conflicts. I'm less certain why the Earth Orbital Fleets would similiarly be essentially all-GM Kai, but probably prestige, and it serves the Federation's moronic high command in 0083 right to rely on less-capable Federation designs for last-ditch defense, and lose. The loss of so much post-war GM production in one fell swoop does wonders to explain why even the Hario is carrying around space-modified Zaku Cannons in 0087, not to mention all the MSV machines guarding Jaburo against AEUG; since the base needs to be guarded to prevent AEUG from smelling a trap, it's best for the guards to be second-line, outdated "obsolete" machines, and probably with pilots to match, likely young kids with some aging veterans who prefered Zeon-styled machines. All were expendable.

Makes me wonder...is the Federation MS performance in 0083 so low because the GMs are largely manned by post-war pilots, with all the old veterans sticking by their Zeon relics, and thus ending up excluded from the forces which carried the burden of fighting against Delaz's forces?

[JEFFPIATT]

The Jegan D-type is like the GM c type it is an upgrade based on the infomation gathered by users of the A type and maybe the B type. it's a way of bridgeing the orignal to the later J type.
only seeing the C type in 0083 is more of a cost saving measure for the animators it's cheaper to only draw one type of grunt than mixing the c type with classic Gm units that would have been with the lower fleets. the novel actually gives a more realistic view of of the zeon side by having them use the whole gambit of models instead of being all f2 types.
The reasion we see the Zeon Styled MS in Zeta was due to the post war Cadets getting so used to those captured Zeon MS in training and wanting to stay with that rather than learn to use the more advanced GM units. The Zaku Frame was also very easy to modify compared to the RGM-79 frame as shown with the RAG-79 being a bad performer and the Titans moving to the Zaku marine type equipment on a hi-zack. The Fed navy never really adopted any kind of ms since by unicorn we see the RAG-79 still in use with no upgrades.

[DeltasTaii]

D type Jegan isn't that unreasonable at all. Wasn't there only the few dozen Jegans Londo Bell fielded around pretty much, and a considerable number of those destroyed? They just made some minor changes on later production models as opposed to having to redeploy anything, and it's cheaper to make minor upgrades to the Jegan than switch over to a completely new next generation development program like the RX-81, Hizack, Barzam, GMIII, etc.

Interestingly, about ground mobile suit masses, the MS-06G Zaku II High Mobility Ground Type is (unsurprisingly) played up as a bridge between the J-Type and the Gouf in MSV-R comic, and stated to have thicker armour compensated for by its much higher output thrusters.

[Black Knight]

I suspect that even cheaper than making minor improvements to the original Jegan would be not making those improvements. This is the same Federation which kept several Zeon mobile suits in production after the OYW because that was cheaper than expanding production of their own mobile suits. And the same Federation which sends the Space Ark into reserve/training status while keeping Salamis Kai cruisers in service.

Londo Bell deployed ~40 Jegans in total, and practically wiped out ~60-80 Geara Dogas with them, and with about a dozen of the Jegans surviving. That speaks volumes about the quality of the basic Jegan & Londo Bell pilots, and the incompetence of Char's pilots. With a victory like that, what is the motivation to upgrade the Jegan? This is the same Federation which will still be using the Jegan as their primary MS in 0120, despite recognizing that it's obsolete, and despite having had newer, better MS in production for about 10 years. Upgrading to the Jegan-D by 0096 does not fit the Federation's track record. Sure, post-OYW the Federation rolled out new "primary" MS in the GM line regularly -- they were also facing severe threats on a regular basis. The GM-C was kept in production following the war, then they were largely destroyed by Delaz. So they roll out the GM II, because, clearly, the GM-C wasn't sufficient for defense. The GM IIs get shown as obsolete early in the Gryps Conflict, such as when three Rick Dias defeat about 20 GM IIs (and most of the time actually only used one Rick Dias to hold them off). So the GM III gets designed & built, and does good work against the Rock Zeeks. Consequently, the Federation is in no rush to decommission them, which is why they're still around and kicking in 0093.

The Jegan was clearly in the acendence, yes -- after all, it's almost certain that some of those GM IIIs began life as basic GMs, and so had been in service for nearly 15 years. But not only was Londo Bell using Jegans, so was the Luna II Garrison, and some of the colony garrison fleets. There were a lot more Jegans than what we saw with Londo Bell. Granted, most of the Luna II garrison gets pwned by Nanai's fleet (not so much her mobile suits, curiously), but there should still have been sufficient Jegans from other sources. And with the showing Londo Bell's Jegans made, there shouldn't be a lot of motiviation to improve the Jegan. Certainly, the Federation shouldn't feel itself under much of an threat at that point -- but one never knows with politicians.

What would[ provide the necessary impetus to come out with a minor upgrade to the Jegan would be if the production facilities were damaged during the course of Char's rebellion. I don't know if any of the kit manuals establish the production sites of the Jegan, but if we postulate them as being at Luna II (which would explain why that backwoods facility receives a Jegan garrison) then we can further presume that Nanai took the time, while stealing nukes, to also bust up the Jegan factory. In the process of rebuilding -- which would be necessary to create more of the nifty Jegans -- there would be no major reason not to incorporate minor upgrades to the Jegan design.

[DeltasTaii]

I had a long post here, but it's best summarized with 3 model numbers:

RAS-95
RGZ-95
RGM-96X

[flamingtroll]

In the said mechanical archive, Katoki described 89D as a "subtype" made for converting into Stark Jegans in mind. It's probably not a real upgrade to the stock Jegan per say; maybe more like a stripped down 89S

[JEFFPIATT]

I suspect that even cheaper than making minor improvements to the original Jegan would be not making those improvements. This is the same Federation which kept several Zeon mobile suits in production after the OYW because that was cheaper than expanding production of their own mobile suits. And the same Federation which sends the Space Ark into reserve/training status while keeping Salamis Kai cruisers in service.

Londo Bell deployed ~40 Jegans in total, and practically wiped out ~60-80 Geara Dogas with them, and with about a dozen of the Jegans surviving. That speaks volumes about the quality of the basic Jegan & Londo Bell pilots, and the incompetence of Char's pilots. With a victory like that, what is the motivation to upgrade the Jegan? This is the same Federation which will still be using the Jegan as their primary MS in 0120, despite recognizing that it's obsolete, and despite having had newer, better MS in production for about 10 years. Upgrading to the Jegan-D by 0096 does not fit the Federation's track record. Sure, post-OYW the Federation rolled out new "primary" MS in the GM line regularly -- they were also facing severe threats on a regular basis. The GM-C was kept in production following the war, then they were largely destroyed by Delaz. So they roll out the GM II, because, clearly, the GM-C wasn't sufficient for defense. The GM IIs get shown as obsolete early in the Gryps Conflict, such as when three Rick Dias defeat about 20 GM IIs (and most of the time actually only used one Rick Dias to hold them off). So the GM III gets designed & built, and does good work against the Rock Zeeks. Consequently, the Federation is in no rush to decommission them, which is why they're still around and kicking in 0093.

The Jegan was clearly in the acendence, yes -- after all, it's almost certain that some of those GM IIIs began life as basic GMs, and so had been in service for nearly 15 years. But not only was Londo Bell using Jegans, so was the Luna II Garrison, and some of the colony garrison fleets. There were a lot more Jegans than what we saw with Londo Bell. Granted, most of the Luna II garrison gets pwned by Nanai's fleet (not so much her mobile suits, curiously), but there should still have been sufficient Jegans from other sources. And with the showing Londo Bell's Jegans made, there shouldn't be a lot of motiviation to improve the Jegan. Certainly, the Federation shouldn't feel itself under much of an threat at that point -- but one never knows with politicians.

What would[ provide the necessary impetus to come out with a minor upgrade to the Jegan would be if the production facilities were damaged during the course of Char's rebellion. I don't know if any of the kit manuals establish the production sites of the Jegan, but if we postulate them as being at Luna II (which would explain why that backwoods facility receives a Jegan garrison) then we can further presume that Nanai took the time, while stealing nukes, to also bust up the Jegan factory. In the process of rebuilding -- which would be necessary to create more of the nifty Jegans -- there would be no major reason not to incorporate minor upgrades to the Jegan design.

The D type is the first of many upgrades received to the jegan. it uses the same cockpit as the three F91 era refits but keeps the same equipment as the CCA models

[toysdream]

I feel like we're drifting a little off-topic with all this Jegan business, but we've probably said all there is to say about the original subject, so what the heck.

Couldn't the increase in the base weight of the Gouf over the Zaku be attributed to a heavier frame (structural & armor)?

Possibly, but all the Japanese sources insist that the Gouf was designed to be drastically lighter than the Zaku. Having freed up all that space and weight, the designers proceeded to pile on a bunch of new features - thicker armor, a bigger radiator, supplemental leg engines, fixed weapons in the arms - so it's conceivable that it might end up being just as heavy as the Zaku. But this would be because of the new features, not because of the basic frame.

Makes me wonder...is the Federation MS performance in 0083 so low because the GMs are largely manned by post-war pilots, with all the old veterans sticking by their Zeon relics, and thus ending up excluded from the forces which carried the burden of fighting against Delaz's forces?

I doubt the separation is quite that clean. More likely there are some veterans who respect the superior performance of the Zeon machines, as well as some newbies who are used to these machines because they trained on them after the war, and a similar mix of pilots using the GM series. (Just look at Gundam 0083, where we see newbies in Zakus and veterans using GMs.)

Speaking of which, there's an interesting footnote in the "Master Archive" book related to the GM Cannon. According to the Zeta Gundam reissue of the 1/144 GM Cannon kit, the GM Cannons we see at Jaburo are part of the "Killer Bee" team, which uses them alongside the Zaku Desert Type. And the old Zaku Desert Type kit indicates that the Killer Bee was the emblem of Zeon's "Pink Panther" team during the war. The Master Archive claims that these are indeed the same team, and that the Killer Bees - who eventually switched over to the GM II and GM Cannon - were one of the "prisoner units" that surrendered to the Federation Forces during the war and were eventually integrated into the regular military. As such, they were considered relatively expendable, and that's why the Federation chose teams like this for the doomed Jaburo garrison!

Mark, I thought the Stark was always, even the original -89S CCA-MSV design, supposed to be an add-on kit

Nope. From the original profile in the MS Encyclopedia: "Aside from the installation of machine guns in its chest, the machine itself is only slightly modified, and the armor added to the waist and legs can be removed as necessary." So even if it's a minor modification, and some of the armor sections are removable, it's still a different machine from the stock Jegan.

As for the D type Jegan, it doesn't strike me as at all unusual that the Federation would continue to make minor improvements as production of the Jegan continued over the years. This is exactly what real-world militaries do, and it would seem a lot more peculiar if they don't make incremental improvements. As flamingtroll notes, the D type is intended specifically to be convertible into the Stark Jegan, so I expect this version would be assigned mainly to special forces like the Londo Bell.

-- Mark