Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:My personal logic, tying into my various theories on the state of the Federation economy, is that the Federation Forces burned up a huge amount of post-war reconstruction funding on the various GMs we see in 0083 (amongst many other things), which left them more or less needing to put Zeon's designs and equipment to use in order to fill their frontline MS squadrons, considering the amount of funding which would have been diverted from development and deployment of the GM into rebuilding the fleet (and magic-ing away the damage left by Operation Stardust in under four years). I'm still ironing out those details, to be honest, but the skeleton is there.
That could work, although the idea that the Federation left all those captured factories gathering dust for a few years and then put them back into operation seems a little iffy. (Not to mention that the Hizack was introduced shortly after 0083, so this leaves us with a pretty small window for using "stock" Zeon machines.)

Another possibility I'd suggest: In Gundam 0083, most of the Federation forces we see are participating in the naval review. Since the whole point of that review is to show off the Federation's might, one imagines that they'd shift things around to showcase all their shiny homegrown GMs at the review, leaving all those shameful Zeon machines to do the dirty work of actually guarding bases, patrolling, and maintaining security throughout the rest of the Earth Sphere. Gato's physically impossible nuclear attack thus takes a disproportionately heavy toll on the Federation's homegrown machines.

As anecdotal supporting evidence, the MG GM Kai kit manual says that the GMs we see at Torrington Base in Gundam 0083 were only deployed there in April of U.C. 0081, as part of an annual update. It's possible that, up until then, the base was garrisoned mainly with captured Zakus, and that it was only when the new GMs were deployed that these Zeon machines were relegated to serving as aggressor machines.

Other interesting tidbits from the GM Kai manual:

"The continued production of the GM Kai also served as part of the 'Federation Forces Reconstruction Plan' that was subsequently launched by the Federation Forces." (In other words, GM Kai production was already underway when this plan was adopted in October of U.C. 0081, but it then became a major element of the reconstruction plan.)

"Although the RGM-79C GM Kai was produced in considerable numbers, it never really entered combat as a main force machine. This was because it was determined that it had been utterly unable to compete with the assorted old models used by the Delaz Fleet." (The manual adds that this was basically the death knell for the traditional GM. Although it doesn't explicitly say so, this suggests the Hizack might represent a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" policy on the part of the Federation.)

"Incidentally, in the case of the RGM-79R GM II which was later considered the successor to the RGM-79, it appears that many of the units were RGM-79 GMs which had been produced during the war and then simply upgraded and given an updated model number." (Which we kind of knew already, but it's positioned here as an alternative to producing entirely new GM units, as with the GM Kai.)

-- Mark
User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

the closest we got to a federation built gelgoog was the galabaty beta it even used the gelgoog beam rifle. The hi-zack was based on the zaku series in order to give the Federation a cheap simple unit to customize for any environment. the gm frame failed to do that. The federation used the recon and aquatic conversions of the zaku on the hizack frame with no real armor changes. The eff also seemed to only use early zeonic models never deploying captured doms and gelgoogs. heck they converted gouf flight types to function in the same role as the dom possibility to test an new hi-zack config. and only neo-zeon forces adopt modern versions of either suit. my guess would be the federation wanted to leave the gelgoog as a republic of zeon model.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

JEFFPIATT wrote:the closest we got to a federation built gelgoog was the galabaty beta it even used the gelgoog beam rifle. The hi-zack was based on the zaku series in order to give the Federation a cheap simple unit to customize for any environment. the gm frame failed to do that. The federation used the recon and aquatic conversions of the zaku on the hizack frame with no real armor changes.
That may not be all; the Desert Zaku seen in Gundam ZZ has a Hizack-class (or Gelgoog-class) power output and can use a beam rifle, so it may well be a Hizack-based conversion too. I'd love to see all these Zeta and ZZ MSVs reimagined as Hizack variants. :-)
The eff also seemed to only use early zeonic models never deploying captured doms and gelgoogs.
Mmmmmmaybe. I have a suspicion that all those Dowadges we see running around in ZZ might be postwar Federation-made machines; certainly the Federation never came up with anything nearly as good for desert use. And as I mentioned, the Blue Team's Gelgoog is a "replica" Gelgoog with completely different innards. Somebody must have been building and upgrading all these vintage mobile suits, and it seems unlikely that it was just Zeon remnants and anti-Federation separatists.

-- Mark
User avatar
DeltasTaii
Posts: 878
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:06 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

So I now have a good in-universe reason to hate the GM Kai? Awesome. I suppose I should thank the Nemo for putting things back on track.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

One more interesting source of info on postwar Federation mobile suit usage: the kit manual from the HG-UC Zaku II F2 (Federation version).
After the war, these machines were captured by the Federation Forces. Due to their ease of use, they were employed by the Earth Federation Forces in every area. Naturally they were used for training and familiarization, and they were invaluable as aggressor machines in mock combat. Their specs were of course inferior to those of new Federation machines like the Powered GM, but many Federation Forces pilots would admit they came of age in this machine.

Since most of the F2 type's production facilities were lost in the war, these captured machinese were destined to be scrapped once they reached the end of their service life. Nonetheless, many of the mobile suit pilots who were trained during this time came to prefer the feel of Principality machines, and this is one of the reasons why Zeon machines such as the Galbaldy and Hizack were deployed as part of the Federation Forces' mobile suit corps up until the Gryps Conflict.
The interesting part here is the comment that the F2 production facilities were lost in the war. Most of the Zeon machines used by the Federation Forces after the war were produced on captured assembly lines, including those at Pezun and the California Base, which were seized pretty much intact. In the case of the Zaku II F2 Type, though, they couldn't build any more machines or spare parts, which meant these popular machines had an unnaturally short service life. That alone might justify the creation of the Hizack - there was no other way to meet the demand for Zakus!

-- Mark
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: New Koenigsberg, Side 3

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

toysdream wrote:One more interesting source of info on postwar Federation mobile suit usage: the kit manual from the HG-UC Zaku II F2 (Federation version).
After the war, these machines were captured by the Federation Forces. Due to their ease of use, they were employed by the Earth Federation Forces in every area. Naturally they were used for training and familiarization, and they were invaluable as aggressor machines in mock combat. Their specs were of course inferior to those of new Federation machines like the Powered GM, but many Federation Forces pilots would admit they came of age in this machine.

Since most of the F2 type's production facilities were lost in the war, these captured machinese were destined to be scrapped once they reached the end of their service life. Nonetheless, many of the mobile suit pilots who were trained during this time came to prefer the feel of Principality machines, and this is one of the reasons why Zeon machines such as the Galbaldy and Hizack were deployed as part of the Federation Forces' mobile suit corps up until the Gryps Conflict.
The interesting part here is the comment that the F2 production facilities were lost in the war. Most of the Zeon machines used by the Federation Forces after the war were produced on captured assembly lines, including those at Pezun and the California Base, which were seized pretty much intact. In the case of the Zaku II F2 Type, though, they couldn't build any more machines or spare parts, which meant these popular machines had an unnaturally short service life. That alone might justify the creation of the Hizack - there was no other way to meet the demand for Zakus!

-- Mark
It would also explain the disappearance of the Gelgoog from the Federation's rosters after 0083: simply no way to maintain the ones they captured beyond a certain timeline, and Axis probably took the pieces of the design it liked and ditched the rest.
"If you ask me," said the little man to Shadow, "you're something of a monster. Am I right?"
"I'm American," said Shadow, "if that's what you mean." - Neil Gaiman
User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

That out of story explains why we never see the f2 is use during the zeta era out side of the movies my guess would be that near the end of the war some of zeon's production lines were damaged by the staff before surrendering but it can't explain why the federation did not take a unit apart for AE to built replacement parts using a captured model but that concept may have led to the hi-zack being built why just keep the old units running when you can built an updated model that can swap parts with existing rgm units. it would repair the tech tree to have the old zeon ms we see be re conned as RMS line mobile suits. my guess is the replica line is to link the gelgoogs we see to the later hobby hi-zack.
User avatar
domtropen
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Check in some dvds so far...

MS-07B Gouf: [from the battle during Gihren's speech on Garma's funeral and later] it can fly backwards using backpack thrusters alone and can also hop around quickly [still higher than MS normal height] without using thrusters. From Sayla's Gundam sortie Gouf can also fly up using backpack thrusters alone. For big jump however a brief charge and bending bocy and legs are requirred [like during assault on White Base when Amuro comes back]. Never seen firing backpack thrusters after initial jump.

MS-06F/J: can hop quickly without thrusters, but bend legs and body [sometimes slightly] are done prior to big jump with backpack thruster firing [both in movies and Igloo]. In Igloo Zakus can turn around without using thrusters in midair.

MS-06S: during the search for White Base [killing Garma] Char's Zaku can jump very quickly in succession for long distance without any thrusters firing.

MS-07B3: after stabbing Guntank it can fly up by thrusters alone. Leg thrusters seem to be working whin it lift and push aside the pice of expressway [maybe just exhausts from leg working hard?]

RX-78-2: so far during the 1st fight on Earth it can fly up initially using thrusters to grab incoming beam riflle, and then fire up its thrusters again in midair immediately to gain altitute. It can also fly back during the jump/flight to avoid colliding with Matilda's Medea.

RX-79[G]: Sander's Gundam can fly horizontally with all feets above ground and then fly up to cut Apsalas. Karen's Gundam can fly up from knelling position by thrusters too, but hard to say whether leg movement assist in the jump.
User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

toysdream wrote:
domtropen wrote:Gelgoog: wondering why, apart from Galbaldy, no side seem to develop a successor from it...
It's hard to think of an in-universe reason, isn't it? It seems like some units were produced after the end of the war - the Gelgoog used by the Blue Team in ZZ is said to be an upgraded "replica," which probably goes for a lot of the vintage machines we see in Zeta and ZZ. But it's such a great machine that the absence of a "Hi-Gelg" is pretty tough to justify.

-- Mark
I can think of two, though none produced by the Federation itself:

The first one is Axis's ReGelg, which is basically Axis' GM II: existing Gelgoogs were upgraded into newer units. However, unlike the GM II, these units seemed to be on par with Zeta era units.

I do have some doubts regarding its status as "mass production unit", especially considering that the ZZ profiles classify both the Geymalk and the Quin Mantha as mass production units. We only see Illia's unit in the animation, and even if we consider that Mashymere's unit is different from Illia's, that's only two ReGelgsconfirmed. These two cases point towards it being an officer unit. In contrast, while mahq profile's indicates that the R-Jarja was a one of a kind unit, the japanese wiki indicates that Chara's unit wasn't the only one produced, and it points out that the few produced were for officers. Perhaps the ReGelg along the R-Jarja filled the role of limited production units for Neo Zeon officers (which seemed to prefer these knight-type MS).

The second one would be the Dijeh, which even carries a beam naginata as well. Despite this, it is supposedly mainly based on the Rick Dias.

Regarding the Zaku F2, the Granda Base is indicated as its production site, which is known as one of the few remaining Zeon strongholds in space right after the end of the battle of A Baoa Qu. Perhaps the troops that refused to surrender destroyed the production facilities prior to leaving towards Axis. In such case, it would be possible that other units that were also produced at Granda shared the same postwar situation of the F2.

Regarding the ZZ's newer Zaku units, I also like to consider that the Zaku Mariner and the Zaku Desert Type (ZZ version) are actually Hi-Zack variants/descendants. Personally I think these should have been the Marine Hizack and Desert Hizack respectively instead.
Dendrobium Stamen wrote:Of course, the Hizack isn't without a few gaps itself, but it's probably as cost-effective as a GM refurbished as a GM II, while the elite pilots of the Space Force get the Galbaldy, and presumably the Titans intended to dole out whatever Gryps developed as a Gundam Mk.II successor...
That would probably be the Barzam, although the standard type from the Gryps war didn't make the cut for the successor of the Mk. II (perhaps Sentinel's Refined Barzam would have worked better instead). Ironically, the Marasai was the machine that somewhat succeded the Hi-Zack among the Federation ranks, despite originally being developed in secret for the AEUG and not being among the federation's options for that role.
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

The ReGelg, I now assume, was made based on data from the Gelgoog [Stutzer] and not merely upgraded and just happened to be on par with Zeta era MS. Axis actually had data on Zeta era MS that they could confer to when constructing/upgrading their own MS.

"The MS-14A Gelgoog [Stutzer] is an enhanced custom version of the MS-14A Gelgoog, whose performance has been improved to resist Titan mobile suits. The main goal of its remodeling was increased thrust. The extra parts on its shoulders almost completely cover its upper body, and its backpack has also been replaced with special parts. Because these extra parts contain supplemental thrusters and propellant, the Gelgoog [Stutzer] has far greater mobility than a standard Gelgoog."

This completely fits in with how the ReGelg is constructed with bigger shoulder binders with more thrusters and verniers as well as additional propellant tanks on its back without the need for a bunch of extra, external parts. Also, the "mass production" label could simply mean limited mass production ala Ground Combat Gundam, GM Custom, Dooben Wolf, Qubeley Mass Production Type, and other such units (also labeled as "mass production" types, yet only truly had a limited number built).

And at least with the Geymalk, it was INTENDED for mass production, but either it proved to be too costly in the end (not that you can blame Neo Zeon with all that beam weaponry, psycommu system, etc) or Glemy's rebellion and internal collapse of Neo Zeon cut it off before it could actually enter any sort of production of more units. I'd guess Neo Zeon assumed they'd end up winning in the end, thus having access to the Federation's resources, materials, finances, etc which would allow such units like the Geymalk and Queen Mansa to see at least more than 1 unit constructed for limited mass production.
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
User avatar
Nowhere Man
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:27 pm

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:The ReGelg, I now assume, was made based on data from the Gelgoog [Stutzer] and not merely upgraded and just happened to be on par with Zeta era MS. Axis actually had data on Zeta era MS that they could confer to when constructing/upgrading their own MS.

"The MS-14A Gelgoog [Stutzer] is an enhanced custom version of the MS-14A Gelgoog, whose performance has been improved to resist Titan mobile suits. The main goal of its remodeling was increased thrust. The extra parts on its shoulders almost completely cover its upper body, and its backpack has also been replaced with special parts. Because these extra parts contain supplemental thrusters and propellant, the Gelgoog [Stutzer] has far greater mobility than a standard Gelgoog."

This completely fits in with how the ReGelg is constructed with bigger shoulder binders with more thrusters and verniers as well as additional propellant tanks on its back without the need for a bunch of extra, external parts.
It's perfectly possible for the ReGelg to simply be an upgrade based on the [Stutzer]-series data sent back by Zola's remnants. In fact, that was the entire point of the [Stutzer] modifications: to help these old models keep up with the newer generation of Mobile Suits (IIRC).

The MS-14A Gelgoog [Stutzer] first appears in August of 0085, and is destroyed in October of that year. That gives Axis at least 3 years to figure out how to further upgrade the design to compete with newer models of Mobile Suits, so I doubt its high performance was just a happy accident.
Has no real point of view.
Knows not where he's going to.
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nebfer
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:53 pm

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Interesting stuff, I always thought the specs where a bit weird and did not quite match the show, even went so far as to make my own...

Though one of the areas that irk me is weapon and ammo weight. It would not be to inconceivable for the Zakus 120mm MG to be 2.5 to 3 tons (as real life weapons are in that range). However the 100 rounds of ammo per drum is quite heavy, easily 2 to 3 tons for the drum, as real life rounds are in the ~18 to 25kg range. Missile launchers are going to be heavy but not that heavy, their simply metal tubes, with sights, and what not added on.
The 280mm Zaku Bazooka is at a glance about 15m or so long, assuming the launch tube has a thickness of one or two cm then it should be around one or two tons, the Doms 880mm with the same numbers would be between 3 and 6.5 tons (not including Sights, firing mechanism, hand holds, shields and ammo feeds)... The ammo however... Well the only rocket that I can think of thats in the same size range is the 38cm rocket the Germans used on the Sturm Tiger, that being some 350kg in weight (about half the weight of regular shells on this size). Though I think one could shave a bit off the weight to account for better materials science.
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Well, obviously, without official known weight of a single round/shell/weapon/etc, there's no way to be able to calculate how much extra weight it would add on. All that's shown in the descriptions is that they obviously do like the Guncannon II obviously weighing much less than the RX-77-2 or 3 Guncannon / Heavy Arms Type since it loses the regular cannons and the rockets for a beam cannon and sensors.

By exactly how much, though, is something we'll probably never know unless they release specs for individual weapons and ammo and everything else x_x.
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Gelgoog Jager wrote:The first one is Axis's ReGelg, which is basically Axis' GM II: existing Gelgoogs were upgraded into newer units. However, unlike the GM II, these units seemed to be on par with Zeta era units.

I do have some doubts regarding its status as "mass production unit", especially considering that the ZZ profiles classify both the Geymalk and the Quin Mantha as mass production units.
The 1/144 kit manual says that the ReGelg was used as a trainer mobile suit for novice pilots. It's been claimed elsewhere that Mashymre used this machine when he was a pilot trainee, and so he reverted to it when he was getting his act together in the middle of the series. The machine Illia pilots is supposed to be a hand-me-down from Mashymre.

The Gaz R/L kit manual, though, says that some of the Neo Zeon royal guard teams used ReGelgs as their command machines. The ZZ staff notes published in "The Anime" magazine when the show was on the air also claim that Illia is a member of the royal guard, so perhaps the idea was that her ReGelg previously served as the command machine for a royal guard team? It's a bit confusing.

But I think the ReGelg makes more sense as a royal guard command machine, due to its obvious resemblance to the Qubeley and its lack of resemblance to any of the machines that pilots might actually need to be trained for.
Regarding the Zaku F2, the Granda Base is indicated as its production site, which is known as one of the few remaining Zeon strongholds in space right after the end of the battle of A Baoa Qu. Perhaps the troops that refused to surrender destroyed the production facilities prior to leaving towards Axis.
This may well be the case. The article from Zeta Gundam Part 3 says that the Flanagan Agency either took or destroyed all its research materials when it left for Axis, and so the Federation's Psyco Gundam was based mainly on the Zeong blueprints they recovered from A Baoa Qu. This suggests that the Granada forces had time to trash the place before the Federation took it over, so they could have destroyed the Zaku F2 production lines, too.

Off the top of my head, it seems like the only major production facilities that the Federation captured intact were the California Base and Pezun.

As for the Gelgoog Stutzer, I think this was actually meant to be an ancestor of the Hamma Hamma, just as the Rick Dom Stutzer foreshadows the Ga Zowm. As it turns out, the Zeon remnants in Advance of Zeta never really make contact with Axis after all, and they remain allied with the AEUG all the way to the end of the story, so this may be a dead end. (Unless one of Zola's gang hands over the data to Axis after the Titans are finally destroyed.)

-- Mark
HalfDemonInuyasha
Posts: 1570
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:51 am
Location: Albany, NY
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

I guess it could possibly depend on how "covertly" the data from the Stutzers were transferred to Axis then; maybe through someone in Anaheim or something? (Given how close Anaheim and staff would be with Zeon in ways; absorbing Zeonic Company, Orville as a spy in 0083, Vice President Sullivan working with Cima in 0083 and such.)
"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:I guess it could possibly depend on how "covertly" the data from the Stutzers were transferred to Axis then; maybe through someone in Anaheim or something? (Given how close Anaheim and staff would be with Zeon in ways; absorbing Zeonic Company, Orville as a spy in 0083, Vice President Sullivan working with Cima in 0083 and such.)
Anaheim would certainly have access to the Stutzer data, since they eventually develop a set of Stutzer-type equipment for the Rick Dias. But, aside from obscure conspiracy theories about the Bawoo, there's not really much evidence of technology-sharing between Anaheim and Axis. (There was some wheeling and dealing when Char passed on the Gundarium Gamma formula to Anaheim, but then nothing much for the few years leading up to Zeta Gundam.)

-- Mark
User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

toysdream wrote:The article from Zeta Gundam Part 3 says that the Flanagan Agency either took or destroyed all its research materials when it left for Axis, and so the Federation's Psyco Gundam was based mainly on the Zeong blueprints they recovered from A Baoa Qu. This suggests that the Granada forces had time to trash the place before the Federation took it over, so they could have destroyed the Zaku F2 production lines, too.
By the way, is there any mention on what happened to the other 2 Zeong units? I think we can safely assume that whether they were complete or still on production, they were most likely located at A Baoa Qu at the time of the battle, which brings soem questions:

-How complete were they?
-Were they also deployed in combat?
-Could the Federation have captured one or both of them?
toysdream wrote:Off the top of my head, it seems like the only major production facilities that the Federation captured intact were the California Base and Pezun.
I always found odd that they managed to capture back California Base almost intact, and yet, the only amphibious MS they produce afterwards is an improved Zaku Marine Type, the Zaku Mariner (which I personally like to consider the true Marine Hi-Zack) and it's MSV, the Zaku Diver. Considering all the advances that were made after the Zaku Marine type was considered flawed, it seems odd that they don't develop something based on more succesful models such as the Z'gok.

Finally, going back to the topic, how can we reconcile the total propulsion differences between the Char's Zeong and the perfect Zeong?

Mahq's profile indicate that the incomplete Zeong has a total propulsion of 187,000 kg and an acceleration of 0.81. The Perfect Zeong's profile indicates the same total propulsion but specifies that the propulsion comes from a total of 17 rocket thrusters. However since it considers the exact same propulsion of the incomplete Zeong, it is given a far lower acceleration of 0.44, due to the extra weight of the legs themselves.

First of all, let's see which are these 17 rocket thrusters that the Perfect Zeong profile indicates: 5 of them are the ones on the back of the skirt, placed in the same fashion as for the Rick Dom and the Gelgoog (maybe this is where the new MG ver 2.0 Gelgoog got the idea of 5 thrusters). The incomplete Zeong has the remaining 12 located on the section where the legs were supposed to connect. On each connection section, 6 small rocket thusters are arranged in a circular pattern giving us 12 thrusters for a total of 17 thrusters "on the incomplete Zeong".

How about the perfect Zeong? Well, the commong assumption is that it has the same amount of thrusters, with the ones that were located on the leg connection now relocated to each foot sole. However this is only partially true: while the 12 thrusters on the feet soles are the same ones that the incompelte Zeong already had, there are 6 additional rocket thrusters, 3 located on each calf, once again in the same fashion as for the Rick Dom and the Gelgoog. Furthermore these are not all of the same size, the central thruster is visibly bigger than the two that surround it. This gives the perfect Zeong a total of 23 rocket thrusters.

For reference on the thruster locations you can check:

http://dalong.net/review/mg/m71/m71_i.htm
http://dalong.net/review/mg/m71/m71_p.htm

The manual seems to have some information regarding the legs and also includes a pic showing all of the perfect Zeong's thrusters activated at once.

Note: I recall seeing some video game s in which they consider that the four rectangular sections pointing downwards on the torso of the Zeong are also consider thrusters, however I don't know if there's any mention of these. Finally I hink it's safe to assume that the rocket thrusters on the arms and head are exclusively for performing all range attacks (and escaping in the case of the head).

Now comes the tricky part. Basically the incomplete Zeong has 5 large skirt thrusters and 12 small thrusters where the legs should be. The perfect Zeong has the same 5 large skirt thrusters and relocate the 12 small thrusters to the feet soles. As for the remaining 6 thruster on the calfs, 2 of them seem to be roughly of the same size as those on the skirt. The remaining 4 are far bigger than the small ones on the feet soles, but a bit smaller than the rest of the thrusters; we could say that they are medium-big thrusters.

Anyone knows if there are some values for the incomplete Zeong's individual thrusters?


The next section is pure speculation:

Proposed thruster values:

Incomplete Zeong:
187,000 = 100,000 + 87,000 = 5*20,000 + 12*7,250

Perfect Zeong:
7*20,000 + 12*7,250 + 4*15,000 = 140,000 + 87,000 + 60,000 = 287,000

Now, the 15,000 for the medium-big thrusters is obviusly a compeltely unbased, however comparing the size of the thrusters they are closer in size to the larger ones so I tried to choose a value that was closer ot the one I indicated for the largest thrusters.

If we do consider a total propulsion of 287,000, the accelration would be 0.816, 0.82 if we round it up, which is basically the same acceleration that the incomplete Zeong has to begin with.

Comments are welcome.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

The official specs for the Zeong and other mobile armor-class machines from the original series are a complete mess. Basically, the Entertainment Bible 1 writers took the specs from Gundam Century and made a bunch of arbitrary changes - like dividing by ten, dividing by ten and then adding a "1" on the front, or subtracting a "1" from the front (as with the Elmeth, whose total thrust went from 1,645,200 kg to 645,200 kg, which means it's no longer divisible by six).

I'm not sure quite what the rationale was for the Zeong's specs. Gundam Century listed it with 850,500 kg x 2, reflecting only the big "leg" thrusters. EB 1 seems to have divided this figure by ten and then upped it by 10 percent, for a total of 187,000 kg. Perhaps, since the original Gundam Century specs only reflected the two big thrusters, we can assume this applies to EB 1 as well; this would give each of them an output of 93,500 kg (I think it's reasonable to treat these as single thrusters). Add in the five skirt thrusters, and we're getting to a more respectable ballpark. We can add the sub-thrusters in the chest, too, if you like. :-)

Considering that the MSV kit manuals claim the MS-06Z had a total thrust of 388 tons, I'd assume the Zeong should have at least as much. If each of its skirt thrusters had an output of 40,000 kg, then the Zeong would at least be breaking even.

EDIT: One possible explanation for why the EB 1 writers multiplied the Zeong's thrust total by 0.11 instead of 0.10: Gundam Century lists the full weight of the Zeong as 421.2 tons. If you divide that by two, you get just over 210 tons, but the EB 1 full weight is almost exactly 10 percent higher - just over 231 tons. So I can imagine an intern sitting there with a calculator, dividing the thrust by ten and the full weight by two, and then deciding that both numbers should be a little bit bigger. Stranger things have happened!

-- Mark
User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
I always found odd that they managed to capture back California Base almost intact, and yet, the only amphibious MS they produce afterwards is an improved Zaku Marine Type, the Zaku Mariner (which I personally like to consider the true Marine Hi-Zack) and it's MSV, the Zaku Diver. Considering all the advances that were made after the Zaku Marine type was considered flawed, it seems odd that they don't develop something based on more succesful models such as the Z'gok.
The earth federation was being cheap and only seemed to have access to Zeonic build ms through AE and was being very cheap post oyo there was no real need for aquatic ms heck by the post CCA era the EFN is still using aqua GMs.
LtFrankie
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Can someone give a list of all the new specs? :P

As for the EF choosing to produce new machines over making new parts/upgrading, I think there's a few reasons:
1. To help ease in the less enthusiastic EF pilots into using Zeonic looking MS, since they'd be post-war, EF made designs.
2. Politics.
3. Could be the same reason as with the M14. Atm, we're using some still (Clinton got rid of alot of our surplus M14s, so we haven't had as many as before), but we're just phasing them out/cannibalizing them to refurbish the existing ones while we replace it with a newer, more parts compatible AR-10 battle rifle. In this case, it's the Galbady & Hizack series.
Post Reply