Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:12 am

I imagine that linear seats would be more useful for protecting against suddenly violent shocks than they would be against normal acceleration. After all, we're talking about machines whose maximum acceleration rarely reaches 3 gs, and would only be able to do that in short bursts without running out of propellant in five minutes. The thrusters alone wouldn't be able to create the sort of acceleration that would make something like a linear seat necessary (which is fortunate, since a linear seat wouldn't be able to do much against that sort of constant acceleration anyway).

No, what the linear seats would be good at is, essentially, taking fire. If your mobile suit is getting tossed around by explosives, or colliding with something, or otherwise being given a very high degree of acceleration in a very short duration of time, that's what the linear seat would be good at helping with. The thrusters in mobile suits simply aren't powerful enough to require any sort of equipment for the pilot other than being securely strapped in to a well-padded seat. This also seems to mesh with what we see in the animation -- people tend to bounce around in linear seats when they take a hit (or a near miss) rather than when they're dodging or just moving around. This is probably why they also have airbags as of the CCA era -- if you're moving under your own power you can probably avoid smashing your face into the console, but enemy fire is going to throw you in odd directions that you have no control over. Though one wonders how many casualties were caused by face-console-smashing that they added in a safety feature specifically to counter it? I do seem to recall at least one or two characters getting taken out that way in Zeta...
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:16 am

This does sound like a good reason for using linear seats, but I don't think its advantages are entirely unrelated to the mobile suit's performance. After all, we have the example of the Galbaldy Beta, whose performance supposedly made it almost unusable before it was equipped with a linear seat. So obviously taking hits isn't the only scenario in which the pilot benefits from a shock absorber.

It's also worth bearing in mind that, in most cases, neither the pilot nor the thrusters are located right at the center of mass. This means that you'll have to worry about things like torque and rotational acceleration, which is apparently terrible for your brain.

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Zeonista » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:17 pm

I can appreciate the example of the Galbaldy Beta, although we might also ask Kou how he enjoyed flying the GP series MS. :) Good point on rotational thrust as a result of abruptly changing direction. Granted, a lot of the animation shows MS intentionally rolling for evasion or pursuit purposes, but the consequences of ham-handed activation of secondary thrust systems could be, ah, exciting for the rookie pilot. (Right, Fa-chan? :lol: )

Now, because my players will ask about it... What about thrust-beast Kampfer? Were all the thrusters officially represented on that one? Dominion-kun once calculated that it had a 2:1 thrust ration, compared to the other MS. Thanks to Mark, we can now estimate it's not that far out in front of the pack, but still...
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Wingnut » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:40 pm

Zeonista wrote:Now, because my players will ask about it... What about thrust-beast Kampfer? Were all the thrusters officially represented on that one? Dominion-kun once calculated that it had a 2:1 thrust ration, compared to the other MS. Thanks to Mark, we can now estimate it's not that far out in front of the pack, but still...
Assuming MAHQ's profile is at all accurate, the main thrusters are easy to spot. As MS Illustrated '06 shows, the 2x 28500 and 2x 27000 kg thrusters are obviously on the back and butt respectively. The 4x 12000 seem to be at the back and sides of the legs. (Unless there is one in the foot that the lineart doesn't show.) All the other visible thrusters would be part of the 16 vernier thrusters/apogee motors.
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Nowhere Man » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:59 pm

Wingnut wrote:
Zeonista wrote:Now, because my players will ask about it... What about thrust-beast Kampfer? Were all the thrusters officially represented on that one? Dominion-kun once calculated that it had a 2:1 thrust ration, compared to the other MS. Thanks to Mark, we can now estimate it's not that far out in front of the pack, but still...
Assuming MAHQ's profile is at all accurate, the main thrusters are easy to spot. As MS Illustrated '06 shows, the 2x 28500 and 2x 27000 kg thrusters are obviously on the back and butt respectively. The 4x 12000 seem to be at the back and sides of the legs. (Unless there is one in the foot that the lineart doesn't show.) All the other visible thrusters would be part of the 16 vernier thrusters/apogee motors.
Looking at my HGUC Kampfer and watching episode 4 of Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: A War in the Pocket...

Neither in the show, nor the model can I find anything other than 12 blatant apogee motors (2 in the head, 6 in the shoulders, 2 on the top of the chest, 1 on the crotch, 1 on the butt) -- unless they're considering these big honkers to be apogee motors. I can't even reconcile this with basic math, considering that the official specs (or at least the specs on MAHQ) account for a total of 24 thrusters (8 main, 16 apogee motors), but I can see a total of 25. Great.

But let's forget that 1 awkward thruster (which I'm guessing is the tiny one on the backpack). Which are the 8 thrusters, and which are the 16 apogee motors? And of those 8 main thrusters, which 4 are the same size? Judging by the HGUC model and manual, I'm going to guess that the thrusters in the feet and on the sides of the ankle skirts are about the same size, so they're our 4 thrusters rated at 12,000kg. Then the backpack thrusters and butt thrusters can be divvied up as the other 2 sets. The ones on the sides of the waist are too small, and the ankle skirt thrusters look like they would fry the feet if they were fired in the same line as the others. The latter is supported by what we see in episode 4, as the Kampfer charges horizontally down the street toward the Reah forces, thrusting with just about everything other than the ankle skirt engines and the butt thrusters.

Everything else would also be counted as an apogee motor, even if we also see some of them constantly firing in the above example. They seem to be directed downward, keeping the Kampfer hovering just above the ground.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a310/ ... 516253.png

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That's just my speculation, though.

Edit: fixed grammatik mistakes.
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:52 pm

The Kaempfer's thruster specs certainly seem consistent with the numbers we've been throwing around above. While the four large thrusters are clearly the ones in its back and butt, the four 12,000 kg units are probably on the side and back of its lower legs; these all seem about the same size, and the output is comparable to that of the leg-mounted thrusters we've seen in other mobile suits. Although the Kaempfer does have thrusters in the soles of its feet, these aren't included in the specs of any other Gundam 0080 mobile suit, so they probably aren't included here either.

In the animation, the Kaempfer does make use of some of its other thrusters (in the feet, hips, and chest) while hovering. After crunching all those numbers on the Dom series, I have no problem with assuming that these minor thrusters produce even more thrust in addition to the eight listed ones, and that if we factored in the foot and hip thrusters the Kaempfer's total thrust would be even higher.

By the same logic, I'm happy to credit other mobile suits with a bit more thrust than the official specs claim. All of the GMs and Gundams from Gundam 0080 have little thrusters in the soles of their feet, and although these aren't listed in the specs, Gundam 0083 indicates that these are rated at 1,870 kg apiece (thus 7,500 kg for a set of four). Meanwhile, the little thrusters on the backpack of the GM Command and the butt of the Alex are rated at 7,000 kg each; the GM Kai and GM Custom from Gundam 0083 have similar thrusters, and even though these aren't listed in their specs, it seems reasonable that they'd have a similar output.

If these thrusters are activated only briefly for maneuvering purposes, they're functionally the same thing as attitude control verniers, so it makes sense not to include them in the normal specs. On the other hand, even verniers must produce some kind of thrust, or they wouldn't have any effect. It seems to me that the distinction between "main thrusters" and "maneuvering verniers" is thus a bit of a judgement call, based on how often these devices are used and what kind of propellant supply is available. The term "apogee motor" used in Char's Counterattack and Gundam 0080 is a bit more specific, though; in rocketry, "motor" implies a solid-fuel rocket engine, which is a different kind of system from the one that mobile suits use for their main thrusters.

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:21 pm

Since we are talking about MS thrusters and verniers, what is the current consensus on the number of verniers and thusters on the F-type, J-type and S-type Zakus?

Originally, the F-type Zaku had 4 thrusters (2 in the backpack and 2 on the sole of its feet) and 4 verniers (2 in each calf). The most recent MG Ver 2.0 Zaku increases the number of verniers from 4 to 10: the 4 on the calfs remain in place and now have an equal number in the front of the legs. The last 2 are now on the top of the backpack, which now looks like the backpack of an F2-type.

The J-type Zaku was an F-type without the verniers, but keeping the thusters on the sole of it's feet. The latest appearance of such Zaku is on the second and third episode of MS Igloo, especially those seen coming out of HLVs which are further identified as J-Type Zakus, which attempt to maneuver with the thrusters on its feet. Once again, the MG Ver 2.0 model kit changes this by removing the thusters on the feet of the Zaku and leaving only the thrusters on the backpack, which as with the original version, are not jet thrusters.

Finally, we have the S-type Zaku, originally depicted identically as an F-type, except for the commander's antenna. The MSV-R versions of the S-type Zakus, namely the Black Tri-Stars and Johnny Ridden's units, seem to keep the original Zaku backpack but now the have the five verniers around each leg. This vernier arrangement is first seen on the MG Ver 2.0 model kit, which also replaces the original backpack by one that seems to house 4 thrusters (2 regualr nozzles and two vent-looking thrusters). I'm not sure if the two small holes in the middle of the backpack are supposed to be small verniers. In the defense of this model kit versus MSV-R version, it could be possible that the backpack is customized or an option, especially considering that the Black Tri-Stars version showed an option to mount an ammo container on top of it's backpack.

Personally I found the Ver 2.0 units more realistic, however, accepting the new F-type as the standard Zaku makes the MS-06FZ and MS-06F2 upgrades less impressive, especially for the later which now seems to have removed some verniers rather than adding them, making it look more of a downgrade on that side.

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:36 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Since we are talking about MS thrusters and verniers, what is the current consensus on the number of verniers and thusters on the F-type, J-type and S-type Zakus?
Good question! I wasn't going to go there, but now that we have, here we are. :-)

Like you, I'm inclined to go with the MSV-R designs and the Ver.2.0 Master Grade kits as the current standards. (Which doesn't, however, mean I'll accept that the regular Gelgoog has five skirt thrusters!) Since the MSV-R version of the S type doesn't have the backpack verniers, I assume the F type wouldn't either, so a hypothetical "MSV-R" version of the F type would have eight verniers to the S type's ten.

As for the J type, I note that MS Igloo 2 depicts this as having no foot thrusters either. At this point, it appears that the Zaku II units we saw in the original MS Igloo were all F types, even if they were being used on Earth. This is consistent with the MSV materials, which indicate that the first wave of landing operations relied mainly on F types, some of which were later converted to J types in the field. (The machines in the original MS Igloo, which had no calf verniers but did have foot thrusters and protruding backpack nozzles, could also be F-to-J conversions. The elusive MS-06FJ, if you like.)

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:07 pm

Apologies for the self-bump, but this started out as basically a rambling essay broken up into occasional chunks, so I'll just add the latest one here.


Some Classic Specs
In previous installments, I threatened to talk about weight specs. Speaking of which, let's take a moment and look at the very earliest set of these, from Sunrise's Record Collection 1:

RX-75 Guntank
Height: 15 meters
Weight: 80 tons
Power: 85,000 HP

RX-77 Guncannon
Height: 17.5 meters
Weight: 70 tons
Power: 75,000 HP

RX-78 Gundam
Height: 18 meters
Weight: 60 tons
Power: 65,000 HP

MS-06 Zaku II
Height: 17.5 meters
Weight: 74.5 tons
Power: 55,000 HP

Although the old horsepower specs have been phased out, the heights and weights listed in this book have ended up being the official figures, perhaps because they were directly published by Sunrise. Later sources, model kit boxes, collectible drink glasses, etc provided matching specs for the rest of the original series machines:

RGM-79 GM
Height: 18 meters
Weight: 58 tons
Power: 65,000 HP

RB-79 Ball
Height: 12.8 meters
Weight: 49 tons
Power: 15,000 HP

MS-05 Zaku I
Height: 17.5 meters
Weight: 73.5 tons
Power: 45,000 HP

MS-07 Gouf
Height: 18.5 meters
Weight: 80 tons
Power: 60,000 HP

MS-09 Dom
Height: 18.6 meters
Weight: 90 tons
Power: 70,000 HP

MS-14 Gelgoog
Height: 21 meters
Weight: 102 tons
Power: 82,000 HP

MS-15 Gyan
Height: 18 (19.5) meters
Weight: 95 tons

MSM-03 Gogg
Height: 17.8 meters
Weight: 130 tons
Power: 94,000 HP

MSM-04 Acguy
Height: 17 meters
Weight: 98 tons
Power: 80,000 HP

MSM-07 Z'Gok
Height: 19.4 meters
Weight: 84 tons
Power: 74,000 HP

MSM-10 Zock
Height: 23.2 meters
Weight: 119 tons
Power: 180,000 HP

MSN-02 Zeong
Height: 23 meters
Weight: 159 tons
Power: 150,000 HP

Most of these have since been discarded in favor of shiny new official specs, although in some cases (like the Gog, Acguy, and Z'Gok) I think the old weight figures make more sense than the new ones. Speaking of which, we owe the current specs mainly to a pair of late-'80s publications: The Anime's Zeta Gundam Part 3 and Bandai's Entertainment Bible 1.


Zeon's Crash Diet
Take a look at the "First Generation Mobile Suits" specs chart in Zeta Gundam Gundam Part 3, and you'll notice something odd. The first three Zeon suits on the list have pretty high base weights - 56.2 tons for the Zaku II, 58.5 tons for the Gouf, and 62.6 tons for the original Dom. These leave a gap of about 17 to 19 tons between the base and full weight specs, similar to the Federation machines and a lot of older ones from Zeta Gundam.

With the Rick Dom and Gelgoog, though, that goes out the window. The full weights stay almost as high, but the base weights are suddenly twenty tons lighter, similar to the Federation machines. Suddenly we're looking at gaps of 30 to 35 tons between base and full weights, implying that these machines are carrying twice as much propellant as all the others, and way more than most of the stuff from Zeta and ZZ!

Perhaps the folks compiling the specs chart wanted to get the weight specs of the later Zeon models down to the same ballpark as the Galbaldy Beta, albeit with twice as much propellant. Or perhaps they're assuming a sudden change to lightweight materials; the base weight of the Rick Dom is exactly 30 percent less than that of the Dom, which seems suspiciously deliberate. In any case, these assumptions were carried forward to the Dowadge and ReGelgu in Gundam ZZ (whose official specs say that their high mass ratio figures, and thus their huge propellant capacities, are "to compensate for poor performance of rockets"). And of course, most of the later specs given for One Year War-era Zeon mobile suits have followed suit.


Fixing the Rick Dom
If you're a specs freak, perhaps this isn't the sort of thing that wakes you up in the middle of the night with cold sweats, but I think it probably should be. There's no plausible reason why the Rick Dom should be dramatically lighter than the original Dom, and the text descriptions in Gundam Century and Entertainment Bible 1 claim that its base weight is actually higher (just as the original Zaku II has a higher base weight than the J type, because it has all that extra space equipment). What's more, looking at the other specs from Zeta and ZZ, there's simply no way you should be able to fit that much propellant into a mobile suit without using external tanks.

What's more, we have a few counter-examples among Zeon's later mobile suits. According to the MS Encyclopedia, the Prototype Dom and Dom Tropical Test Type have base weights in excess of 60 tons, as does the Pezun version of the Dowadge. And the weight specs for the Gelgoog High Mobility Type which appear in Entertainment Bible 1 - base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 76.8 tons - are actually much more reasonable than the ones listed for the standard Gelgoog.

As regards the Rick Dom, I think it would be pretty reasonable to just add twenty tons to its official base weight, bringing it up to 63.8 tons - about one ton more than the original Dom, thus validating the descriptions in Gundam Century and Entertainment Bible 1. As for its full weight, the official figure of 78.6 tons then looks way too small, but how about reviving the figure of 90.0 tons from the classic specs? That gives us a respectable gap of 26.2 tons between base and full weight, and since the Dowadge specs from Gundam ZZ indicate that the standard Dom armament weighs six tons, the Rick Dom would be carrying 20.2 tons of propellant (exactly 7.0 tons more than the original Dom) and have a mass ratio of 1.29 (at the low end for a Zeta-era machine).

These specs are also pretty consistent with the ones I proposed for the MS-06R series at the beginning of this thread. The Rick Dom would be carrying more propellant than the MS-06R-1A and R-2, and its mass ratio would be the same as the latter machine, which makes sense given that they were supposed to be roughly equal in terms of performance.


Whew! That actually wasn't too bad. Maybe it's time to forge ahead and tackle the Gelgoog.

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by domtropen » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:22 pm

This would be the problem for me if Gelgoog gets heavier than Dom, and Gouf still heavier than Zaku...

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by His Divine Shadow » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:41 pm

domtropen wrote:This would be the problem for me if Gelgoog gets heavier than Dom, and Gouf still heavier than Zaku...
Gelgoog should be about as heavy as the Rick Dom, if the Zeon penchant for space combat suits being weighty maintains itself. Biggest difference is that Gelgoog packs very little in the way of disposable ammunition, being an energy beast, whereas the Rick Dom is stuck with solid projectiles and thus has ammo weight.
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:08 pm

It does seem odd to have the Gouf be heavier than the Zaku; we're always told that ground mobile suits are lighter than space ones, since they can omit a bunch of equipment like foot magnets, navigational systems, coolant, etc. In the case of the Gouf, it's usually said that it was futher lightened by an extensive redesign, freeing up lots of internal space for finger vulcans, heat rods, leg thrusters, etc, not to mention improved armor and bigger radiators.

I suppose it's possible that, once the designers got done putting in all those new goodies, they'd used up all of that weight margin and made the Gouf heavy all over again. That must be the common assumption, because no matter how the specs change and evolve over time, the Gouf always ends up being heavier than the Zaku. I'm not entirely happy with that, but at least it's consistent, and the only alternative is to go through and challenge the official specs for every version of the Gouf.

As for the Gelgoog versus the Rick Dom, I agree with HDS here. Extra weight isn't a handicap for a space type, especially if it means you can carry more propellant, and the Gelgoog has always been spec'd out as being taller than the Dom. (The classic specs had the Gelgoog as being 21 meters tall, which is huge, but the model kits have generally been scaled to an overall height of 19.2 meters, which is now the official figure.)

On the other hand, the specs for Gundam ZZ's Dowadge indicate that its weapons payload is just 6.0 tons, the same as the Galbaldy Beta. This suggests that its bazooka isn't as heavy as you'd expect, or at least that the extra weight is compensated for by the lack of a shield. Of course, the whole point of this thread is to cast a skeptical eye at the official specs, so if you don't find that convincing then I can't blame you. :-)

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by domtropen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:06 pm

Since the empty weight of the normal and custom Goufs with all internal addons are about the same as empty weight of Zakus your suggestions sound ok. However IIRC both normal Gouf and Gouf Custom have been shown flying up by backpack thrusters alone, so their two backpack thrusters woud be quite powerful to send 70-80 tons up in the air by their own power alone [obviously they won't lift up only empty weight since obviously there would be no fuel to expand...]. For the Flight types it is also strange that all extra leg parts, new backpacks, fins, jet engines, etc add only 4-5 extra tons to the empty weight of normal Goufs.

As for the Gelgoog it is only a tiny bit tall than Rickdom [19.2 vs 18.6] but in later linearts and in most animations Rickdom has bigger torso and upper legs. The bulky appearance of Gelgoog in later linearts and animations seems to be from oversize skirt and shoulder armors, but its torso is smaller than Rickdoms. And unlike Rickdom Gelgoog is usable on Earth too.

On Earth does Gelgoog use hover system like Doms or hover by bruth force using its thrusters power?

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:43 pm

domtropen wrote:Since the empty weight of the normal and custom Goufs with all internal addons are about the same as empty weight of Zakus your suggestions sound ok. However IIRC both normal Gouf and Gouf Custom have been shown flying up by backpack thrusters alone, so their two backpack thrusters woud be quite powerful to send 70-80 tons up in the air by their own power alone [obviously they won't lift up only empty weight since obviously there would be no fuel to expand...].
The Gouf's leg thrusters should contribute to that as well - their main function is to help with jumping. But since humanoid mobile suits can kick off against the ground, I'm prepared to say that also contributes to the initial propulsion. (After all, regular-size humans can jump with no thrusters.) If we were insisting that any mobile suit that can leave the ground has at least one gee of thrust, we'd need to re-spec everything. :-)
For the Flight types it is also strange that all extra leg parts, new backpacks, fins, jet engines, etc add only 4-5 extra tons to the empty weight of normal Goufs.
On the other hand, these machines have been exhaustively lightened to enable them to fly, so one assumes the designers would have done everything possible to reduce their weight. The MSV books claim that the Flight Test Type has a full weight of about 80 tons, so I actually have a lot more confidence in these particular specs.
On Earth does Gelgoog use hover system like Doms or hover by bruth force using its thrusters power?
According to ZZ, it can hover just like a Dom, as well as flying around in the air. The MG kit manuals insist that its rocket engines can also work as air-breathing jets, so it should be able to keep that up for a while. Truly a super mobile suit!

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by domtropen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm

I would try to recheck in the anime, but IIRC both Gouf and Gouf Custom have been shown flying up rather effortlessly with neither leg movement nor leg thrusters firing up. For Gouf Custom it is rather weird that the time when its leg thrusters have anything coming out of, it is the time when it is lifting/pushing the big piece of highway away. As for leg movement IIRC at least Gundam, Zakus and Goufs were shown to be capable of jumping and hopping around without any thruster firing up as well...


Gelgoog: wondering why, apart from Galbaldy, no side seem to develop a successor from it...

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:32 pm

domtropen wrote:I would try to recheck in the anime, but IIRC both Gouf and Gouf Custom have been shown flying up rather effortlessly with neither leg movement nor leg thrusters firing up. For Gouf Custom it is rather weird that the time when its leg thrusters have anything coming out of, it is the time when it is lifting/pushing the big piece of highway away. As for leg movement IIRC at least Gundam, Zakus and Goufs were shown to be capable of jumping and hopping around without any thruster firing up as well...
It might be good to find some specific scenes for reference here. I'm not going to have time this week, but if anyone else wants to give it a shot...
Gelgoog: wondering why, apart from Galbaldy, no side seem to develop a successor from it...
It's hard to think of an in-universe reason, isn't it? It seems like some units were produced after the end of the war - the Gelgoog used by the Blue Team in ZZ is said to be an upgraded "replica," which probably goes for a lot of the vintage machines we see in Zeta and ZZ. But it's such a great machine that the absence of a "Hi-Gelg" is pretty tough to justify.

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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Newtype87 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:41 pm

toysdream wrote:
domtropen wrote:
Gelgoog: wondering why, apart from Galbaldy, no side seem to develop a successor from it...
It's hard to think of an in-universe reason, isn't it? It seems like some units were produced after the end of the war - the Gelgoog used by the Blue Team in ZZ is said to be an upgraded "replica," which probably goes for a lot of the vintage machines we see in Zeta and ZZ. But it's such a great machine that the absence of a "Hi-Gelg" is pretty tough to justify.

-- Mark
I'd guess either expense (the Gelgoog could not have been a cheap machine to build) or bad PR (it's the machine Zeon pulled out as their end-of-war upgrade, a match to the legendary Gundam, and they still lost), but neither of those are really good answers. The Zaku would have had even worse PR than the Gelgoog (Zeon's mainstay machine that they used for most of the war) and it got an upgrade, and I bet that a bunch of the Zeta-era grunt suits were just as expensive to make. Maybe it simply wasn't cost-effective enough to warrant even a prototype upgrade: they could more easily build a brand-new current gen suit with superior stats than upgrade the existing design. I think you're right: there is no really good answer I can think of. :\
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:11 pm

Presumably, the cheap-and-cheerful Hizack and all its Federation-Zeon crossbreeding experiments were considered "enough" for mass-production, with the altogether rather shinier Galbaldy filling the true high-performance interceptor role. Given the state of the Federation economy in the post-Stardust era (an essay I will finish one day...) it wouldn't be too out of character for the Federation to go cheap on its mainstay units - refurbished GMs and their illegitimate lovechild with the Zaku II, anyone?

To drag this one kicking and screaming back towards the topic, Mark's translation of Mobile Suit Variation 3 notes that "the RGM-79 was in a sense an incomplete machine." While this has almost certainly been retconned out, we could use it as a justification for the Hizack's existence - a machine that fills the gaps in the GM Series with Zeon technology, in essence? Of course, the Hizack isn't without a few gaps itself, but it's probably as cost-effective as a GM refurbished as a GM II, while the elite pilots of the Space Force get the Galbaldy, and presumably the Titans intended to dole out whatever Gryps developed as a Gundam Mk.II successor...
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by toysdream » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:37 pm

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:To drag this one kicking and screaming back towards the topic, Mark's translation of Mobile Suit Variation 3 notes that "the RGM-79 was in a sense an incomplete machine." While this has almost certainly been retconned out, we could use it as a justification for the Hizack's existence - a machine that fills the gaps in the GM Series with Zeon technology, in essence?
It also seems that, after the end of the war, the Federation used Zeon machines to bulk up its mobile suit forces. (Some of these were captured machines, and some of them were produced with captured factories.) In Gundam 0083, we mainly see these captured enemy machines used as aggressors, but it appears that a lot of them were used as regular frontline units too (especially the specialized local variants). By some accounts, a lot of postwar Federation pilots had become sufficiently used to these machines that they wanted to stick with them.

-- Mark

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Dendrobium Stamen
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Re: Vintage MS: Playing With Specs

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:51 pm

That doesn't surprise me at all, I vaguely recall it being mentioned at various times and in various places that the collective strength of Zeon's forces after A Bao A Qu was probably a match for the Federation's surviving fleet, but it fragmented with the loss of leadership. Mix that in with Zeon's considerable deficit of qualified pilots, and you end up with a decent number of decent machines gathering dust, ready for the Federation Forces to put to use.

My personal logic, tying into my various theories on the state of the Federation economy, is that the Federation Forces burned up a huge amount of post-war reconstruction funding on the various GMs we see in 0083 (amongst many other things), which left them more or less needing to put Zeon's designs and equipment to use in order to fill their frontline MS squadrons, considering the amount of funding which would have been diverted from development and deployment of the GM into rebuilding the fleet (and magic-ing away the damage left by Operation Stardust in under four years). I'm still ironing out those details, to be honest, but the skeleton is there.
"Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer.
A Wind Raging Through, a Destiny sidestory.

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