Artificial Gravity on Zeon battleships

[Zeonista]

The other day I was doing some research towards the next RPG, and I made the observation that the Gwajin and Gwadan class ships have artificial gravity in at least part of their hulls. Nifty...but I was curious how the ships were able to do that. Does anyone know the design features that permit the Zeon command battleships to have limited artificial gravity? It's not a must-know piece of information, but you never know what piece of info the players will decide is suddenly relevant. ^_^

[Outlaw]

I did a quick look but couldn't find a definative answer, but if I were a betting man I'd put my money on rotation. Given the size of the ships in question I wouldn't be surprised if such rotating sections were entirely obscured.
On the other hand it may just be dictated by plot. If the writers want someone to walk around: taadaa gravity activate!

[Imperial]

It's likely just stylistic. Tomino's original MSG novels make mention of Velcro on the soles of Char's boots to allow him to mesh to the carpet aboard a ship. Some ships like the Argama have rotating blocks to simulate gravity, but these appear to be few and far between.

If it really gives you pangs, you could just write it off as some internalized structure we can't see from the outside.

[Prana]

The White Base seems to have an internal revolving drum to create artificial gravity (location #10 in the drawing).

In a similar way, the interior of Moussa (Axis small spherical asteroid) "contains a rotating residential block one kilometer in diameter, which produces artificial gravity via centrifugal force" (see Gundam Official)

Given the available technology level in Gundam U.C. saga, artificial gravity generated by rotation is the most feasible solution. Nevertheless it has some limitations, as the speed of rotation and distance from the center of rotation cannot be adjusted at will. For a small ship you need a short radius, but it implies faster speed that could induce dizzines and other kind of motion sickness. If the radius is too big, the speed of rotation shall be smaller and if it is too small then just walking counterwise you go to zero g!

Probably on space ships the artificial gravity is set to a level lower than 1 g

There is an interesting series of dissertations (albeit maybe too academic) on this web site www.artificial-gravity.com.

[Newtype87]

The White Base seems to have an internal revolving drum to create artificial gravity (location #10 in the drawing).

If that's the habitation block, then what do they do when White Base is in an atmosphere? They can't just rotate the whole block to put it flat, the rooms would be all wonky. I mean, great idea, but it needs some work.

There was an idea I had for an atmospheric/space craft like the White Base or Archangel, with an internal habitation block kind of like that. It was ring shaped, and made up of like two dozen separate blocks. Each block had a corridor running down the middle and then two sections on either side. Rotational mounts that doubled as emergency bulkheads were mounted between each section to give bend the floor into a ring. Then there were a combination of spiral lifts and ladders from the habitation module to the core. As they were entering an atmosphere, the habitation ring would slow down and stop, and then the modules would all rotate ninety degrees to make a circular corridor kind of like a deck on the starship Enterprise: the ladder and lift corridors would become walkways. I (obviously) never really did the math or engineering on it to figure out if it was even remotely feasible, but I just wanted to put that out there.

[Phoenix012]

While I don't know specifics of Zeon warship design, I can tell you what I know about the subject in general. I happen to love the subject of artificial gravity. It's a problem that has always resonated with me and I have done a pretty good amount of research over the years. As a Mechanical Engineer it's a problem I hope to actually work on if we ever get to designing large manned spacecraft during my lifetime. Wikipedia has a decent article if you wish to learn some about the subject yourself, but I hope you don't mind while I go into an in depth discussion of artificial gravity and how it is likely to be implemented.

Since gravity's effect can be felt over large volumes of space (obviously), it's important that the artificial gravity also act as a three dimensional field rather than a point, line, or surface force, at least such that the field encompasses the entire crew quarters or whatever. This is fairly obvious, but I'm starting at the beginning.

There are only a handful of ways to create a force over a significant volume, and most are unsuitable for spacecraft. For example, magnetic fields can used to simulate a gravity field, however the amount of energy and weight of the equipment required eliminates this as possibility for astronautical applications. With a radical technology shift, maybe, but probably not anytime soon.

For long term spaceflights, it may be possible (say with nuclear fusion technology) to create a rocket engine that's efficient enough to burn continuously. If the crew quarters are oriented so that crew member's feet are pointed towards the rear of the spacecraft, then the acceleration of the spacecraft will act as a sort of artificial gravity. The spacecraft would simply accelerate continuously from start to midpoint, and then flip around and decelerate continuously from midpoint to destination. However application is obviously limited and would require a massive leap in rocket technology.

As it stands, centrifugal force remains the only viable means of producing artificial gravity and is the only method that gets any real research currently. If you're taken any physics, then you know that the centrifugal force felt during rotation is affected by both the radius of the circle and the angular velocity of the rotation. The larger the circle of rotation and the faster the spin, the greater the force felt. If you want to keep the radius of the rotation small (say because you want to fit this wheel inside a space ship), then you would need a rather quick angular rotation (well upwards of 5 RPM for a 50m diameter wheel) in order to match Earth's gravity. At that speed, people feel very nauseous because of the difference in force felt at their head versus their feet (their head is closer to the center, so less centrifugal force is felt there) In order to create a truly comfortable spin, you need to keep the rotation speed well below 1 RPM, and that requires a wheel hundreds of meters in diameter. That's great for a space colony where lots of space is needed, but it's not so good for a spaceship that needs to be fast and harder to hit by enemy fire.

There is however a solution of sorts. If you're willing to give up on full earth gravity, it has been discovered that it is possible to ease humans into a rotating environment up to around 3 RPM or so. Basically, you start out slower and gradually increase rotation over the course of hours or days. As long as you're willing to accept a final gravity around 1/6 g (which is lunar gravity), you only need a wheel around 40 or 50m in diameter, which is certainly small enough to fit inside a Zeon warship.

So there you have it. If Zeon warships have artificial gravity, then it's simply a rotating wheel located inside the ships hull. In all likelihood, only the crew quarters and some living spaces would be located on this wheel. Most areas of the ship would still be weightless. It's not a perfect solution, as humans will still suffer some muscle degradation, but even being able to spend 8 hours a day in a lunar gravity environment will substantially reduce the amount of working out required to stay healthy in space.

[Newtype87]

~snip~

That is all very cool. To be honest, I think a moon-like gravity would work, especially if these ships have to interact with lunar cities. And while I think crews would have to deal with a bit of readjustment to go from 1/6 g to 1 g for Earth or a space colony, that's a lot better than having spent a few weeks in zero gravity with only only at most an hour or two of artificial gravity a day. Though this does make me curious about the Argama's big gravity blocks, and how well those worked, or indeed how they worked: how did people get into them, how were they deployed, how fast did they spin, how often were they deployed? I mean, it's nice to see a ship deliberately having stuff like that, but I'm just wondering about the feasibility.

Now, speaking of artificial gravity… can we bring up the moon? I've only seen the moon used three times in Gundam: Char's Counterattack, 0083, and Gundam 00. Both CC and 00 show people moving around in lighter gravity, like you would expect, but I don't remember the same thing from 0083's scenes in a lunar city. I think Mark did a paper discussing how Degwin Zabi's poor health might be related to spending a lot of time on the moon, but I don't remember the specifics of it. How would one counter people living and growing up on the moon, if we're assuming they might spend time at the colonies or on Earth? UC Gundam doesn't have 00's handwave of nanites to explain the lack of muscle atrophy or poor health from prolonged exposure to space, so what sort of tricks would they have?

[mcred23]

If Zeon warships have artificial gravity, then it's simply a rotating wheel located inside the ships hull. In all likelihood, only the crew quarters and some living spaces would be located on this wheel. Most areas of the ship would still be weightless.

Which really is typical of UC warships that are shown to have a gravity block.

Now, speaking of artificial gravity… can we bring up the moon? I've only seen the moon used three times in Gundam: Char's Counterattack, 0083, and Gundam 00. Both CC and 00 show people moving around in lighter gravity, like you would expect, but I don't remember the same thing from 0083's scenes in a lunar city.

They don't. The times we see the lunar cities, in 0083 and Zeta (And perhaps other shows I'm not remembering/haven't fully seen), the people move around perfectly fine, as if they are under normal gravity. There has never been any in-universe explanation for this mentioned by any source, with the out-of-universe one simply being "lazy animation", although there has been some speculation, mentioned in this old thread.

In that thread, Mark mentioned that Tomino's novels show the lunar cities as having small populations and being bad places to live, but Zeta (And to a lesser extent, 0083) seem to indicate otherwise. The lunar cities (Von Braun being the main one, but I think Amman and Granada as well) in Zeta seem to be fairly normal, decently sized cities with stable populations, which would imply that something is being done to deal with the weaker gravity.

I think Mark did a paper discussing how Degwin Zabi's poor health might be related to spending a lot of time on the moon, but I don't remember the specifics of it.

It's in his page on the Zabis.

My theory? I suspect Degwin's been spending too much time on the moon. In the early days of the space colonization program, mining facilities were established on the lunar surface to furnish materials for colony construction (5). By U.C.0027 - when Degwin was ten years old - the first permanent lunar settlement, Von Braun City, had been established. Assuming that these lunar mining operations yielded profits even remotely proportional to the difficulty and danger of the work, an enterprising moon-mining mogul would be well-positioned to become a power broker in the newly established colony cluster parked in the moon's own back yard.

The downside of living and working on the moon for an extended period is, of course, the detrimental effect of low gravity. Bone and muscle loss, circulatory complications - it's simply not good for children and other living things. Barring advances in genetic engineering to address these problems, a man who would otherwise grow up to be a six-and-a-half-foot linebacker might well end up as a feeble runt after spending his formative years under one-sixth of Earth's gravity. The first generation of true space colonists, whose rotating habitats provide a full ration of healthy gravity, might well look at these stunted pioneers with a mixture of pity and contempt.

[Imperial]

They don't. The times we see the lunar cities, in 0083 and Zeta (And perhaps other shows I'm not remembering/haven't fully seen), the people move around perfectly fine, as if they are under normal gravity. There has never been any in-universe explanation for this mentioned by any source, with the out-of-universe one simply being "lazy animation", although there has been some speculation, mentioned in this old thread.

In that thread, Mark mentioned that Tomino's novels show the lunar cities as having small populations and being bad places to live, but Zeta (And to a lesser extent, 0083) seem to indicate otherwise. The lunar cities (Von Braun being the main one, but I think Amman and Granada as well) in Zeta seem to be fairly normal, decently sized cities with stable populations, which would imply that something is being done to deal with the weaker gravity.

I like to chalk it up to war-time necessity. The colonies took quite a beating during the One Year War. There was likely a huge refugee problem, and the Federation is all about getting people off of Earth. I doubt they would let the colonists return to Earth. The moon could have become a dumping ground for people fleeing the war.

It would explain the larger populations, although it does nothing for the gravity conundrum.

[Chris]

Now, speaking of artificial gravity… can we bring up the moon? I've only seen the moon used three times in Gundam: Char's Counterattack, 0083, and Gundam 00.

I think you need to look back at things again, since the moon has been featured in almost every Gundam production to date.

[Newtype87]

Now, speaking of artificial gravity… can we bring up the moon? I've only seen the moon used three times in Gundam: Char's Counterattack, 0083, and Gundam 00.

I think you need to look back at things again, since the moon has been featured in almost every Gundam production to date.

Yes, but I haven't seen Zeta, ZZ, Victory, Wing, X, or Turn A, or a number of other smaller things set on the moon. I don't remember if the moon was an actual location in Gundam SEED, and I don't think it factored at all into 0080 or F91, and I barely remember watching the original MSG eight or nine years ago. Speaking from my personal experience, I haven't seen the moon used all that much, so it's hard for me to judge it's portrayal properly.

[Chris]

Yes, but I haven't seen Zeta, ZZ, Victory, Wing, X, or Turn A, or a number of other smaller things set on the moon. I don't remember if the moon was an actual location in Gundam SEED, and I don't think it factored at all into 0080 or F91, and I barely remember watching the original MSG eight or nine years ago. Speaking from my personal experience, I haven't seen the moon used all that much, so it's hard for me to judge it's portrayal properly.

You should make it clear that you've only seen it in those few series you've watched. It figures into all the ones you haven't watched, and it was definitely in SEED, DESTINY, 0080 and MSG.

[Newtype87]

Yes, but I haven't seen Zeta, ZZ, Victory, Wing, X, or Turn A, or a number of other smaller things set on the moon. I don't remember if the moon was an actual location in Gundam SEED, and I don't think it factored at all into 0080 or F91, and I barely remember watching the original MSG eight or nine years ago. Speaking from my personal experience, I haven't seen the moon used all that much, so it's hard for me to judge it's portrayal properly.

You should make it clear that you've only seen it in those few series you've watched. It figures into all the ones you haven't watched, and it was definitely in SEED, DESTINY, 0080 and MSG.

Okay, you're right, I should have been a little clearer when I said I'd only seen the moon used a few times. And I do know that the moon definitely factors into X and Turn A. And it might be because it's been years, but I'm drawing a complete blank on where the Moon factored into SEED. Would you mind reminding me? :\

[Chris]

In SEED the moon is briefly featured as the site of the Earth Alliance base where the Dominion launches from, and later where the fleet launches from that gets toasted by GENESIS.

[Newtype87]

In SEED the moon is briefly featured as the site of the Earth Alliance base where the Dominion launches from, and later where the fleet launches from that gets toasted by GENESIS.

Ah, right. Thanks.

[Zeonista]

While I don't know specifics of Zeon warship design, I can tell you what I know about the subject in general. I happen to love the subject of artificial gravity. It's a problem that has always resonated with me and I have done a pretty good amount of research over the years. As a Mechanical Engineer it's a problem I hope to actually work on if we ever get to designing large manned spacecraft during my lifetime.

As a devoted SF fan since 1977, I hope you get to study that problem with all my heart.

Since gravity's effect can be felt over large volumes of space (obviously), it's important that the artificial gravity also act as a three dimensional field rather than a point, line, or surface force, at least such that the field encompasses the entire crew quarters or whatever. This is fairly obvious, but I'm starting at the beginning.

It's OK to start at the beginning. My Physics 101-level education doesn't always translate well to 3-D models. The question of projecting the full field rather than a specific surface was the sticking point for me.

There are only a handful of ways to create a force over a significant volume, and most are unsuitable for spacecraft. For example, magnetic fields can used to simulate a gravity field, however the amount of energy and weight of the equipment required eliminates this as possibility for astronautical applications.

S'okay, this is UC Gundam, not Star Trek. Technological wonders can only take place inside a 12-30 meter humanoid frame.

As it stands, centrifugal force remains the only viable means of producing artificial gravity and is the only method that gets any real research currently. If you're taken any physics, then you know that the centrifugal force felt during rotation is affected by both the radius of the circle and the angular velocity of the rotation. The larger the circle of rotation and the faster the spin, the greater the force felt. If you want to keep the radius of the rotation small (say because you want to fit this wheel inside a space ship), then you would need a rather quick angular rotation (well upwards of 5 RPM for a 50m diameter wheel) in order to match Earth's gravity. At that speed, people feel very nauseous because of the difference in force felt at their head versus their feet (their head is closer to the center, so less centrifugal force is felt there)

No, it's definitely not operating at Earth-normal levels. Still, UC people who live in space have a comfort level in reduced gravity situations unknown to us, so it's on to manageable levels of lesser gravity being produced.

In order to create a truly comfortable spin, you need to keep the rotation speed well below 1 RPM, and that requires a wheel hundreds of meters in diameter. That's great for a space colony where lots of space is needed, but it's not so good for a spaceship that needs to be fast and harder to hit by enemy fire.

That sounds more like Argama and its extending spinning arms which operate in non-combat situations. I doubt it's anything close to Earth levels, but the crew can eat and rest at somewhat comfortable levels, right?

There is however a solution of sorts. If you're willing to give up on full earth gravity, it has been discovered that it is possible to ease humans into a rotating environment up to around 3 RPM or so. Basically, you start out slower and gradually increase rotation over the course of hours or days. As long as you're willing to accept a final gravity around 1/6 g (which is lunar gravity), you only need a wheel around 40 or 50m in diameter, which is certainly small enough to fit inside a Zeon warship.

The size is feasible for one of the Zeon/Neo-Zeon heavies. Lunar gravity would be bad for the typical Earthnoid, but in the relevant scenes from Stardust Memory and Zeta Gundam, all the characters present have experience in operating under low-gravity environments.

So there you have it. If Zeon warships have artificial gravity, then it's simply a rotating wheel located inside the ships hull. In all likelihood, only the crew quarters and some living spaces would be located on this wheel.

Crew quarters, mess halls, medical center, command areas, audience room, yeah.

Most areas of the ship would still be weightless.

Yes, the MS facilities which occupy about half of the hull space are not depicted as having any artificial gravity.

It's not a perfect solution

It will work as quick GM finger-puppet science theater.