Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

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domino
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Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by domino » Sun May 30, 2010 7:51 am

We've seen the several retcons and upgrades of Zakus with beam weapons but I'm wondering, if a Zeon engineer had the time and resources after the One Year War, could they retrofit Zakus with GM generators and hand plugs for use with GM beam spray guns?

Imagine a scenario where the Zeon squad(s) have more leftover Zakus than Gelgoogs and since Zeon is in shambles after the war then they salvage what they can from each skirmish including ammo and when they can, leftover parts of Feddie MS.

Is there any reason such a retrofit couldn't or shouldn't work?

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Arsarcana » Sun May 30, 2010 11:23 am

Given that the Zaku II Stutzer managed to power a Gelgoog's rifle, I'm sure that the weaker beam spray gun could be retrofitted for Zaku use. I'm not aware of anything that would obviously prevent a talented engineer from slapping a GM hand onto a Zaku and either tweaking/replacing the internal generator or copying the Stutzer model and adding an external one if there was some issue with retrofitting the internal one.

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Imperial » Sun May 30, 2010 11:59 am

I'm curious to hear more about these "several retcons and upgrades" that allow Zakus to use beam weapons. I'm especially puzzled by a Stutzer with a beam rifl. This is all news to me.

Sure, there are things like the Zaku Sniper I from the Harmony of Gundam, but it has to hook up to a portable generator in order to use that beam sniper rifle.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by mcred23 » Sun May 30, 2010 12:30 pm

domino wrote:Is there any reason such a retrofit couldn't or shouldn't work?
Given the time and resources, there is no reason it shouldn't work. Heck, part of the basic idea of the Hizack is sticking an improved, IIRC GM-based generator in a Zaku-type body (Along with an assortment of other improvements).

However, I can't imagine it would be cheap for Zeon to do, nor would it be easy to get any major number of intact and working (Or at least, easily repairable) GM generators from wrecked units. If they felt the need to spend all this time and money to upgrade Zaku II units to be able to support beam weapons, I'd think it would be far easier to just develop an improved reactor on their own (Or take an exsisting one, from the Gelgoog or Act Zaku or wherever), or simply build their own version of the GM reactor, rather than try and rely on salvaged parts.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Zerosystem » Sun May 30, 2010 2:14 pm

Imperial wrote:I'm curious to hear more about these "several retcons and upgrades" that allow Zakus to use beam weapons. I'm especially puzzled by a Stutzer with a beam rifl. This is all news to me.

Sure, there are things like the Zaku Sniper I from the Harmony of Gundam, but it has to hook up to a portable generator in order to use that beam sniper rifle.
The only things like that I can recall at the moment are the Act Zaku and that newtype monkey piloted variant of what is probably a F-type Zaku II with four arms and no legs, each arm holding a beam rifle.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by toysdream » Sun May 30, 2010 2:49 pm

domino wrote:We've seen the several retcons and upgrades of Zakus with beam weapons but I'm wondering, if a Zeon engineer had the time and resources after the One Year War, could they retrofit Zakus with GM generators and hand plugs for use with GM beam spray guns?

Imagine a scenario where the Zeon squad(s) have more leftover Zakus than Gelgoogs and since Zeon is in shambles after the war then they salvage what they can from each skirmish including ammo and when they can, leftover parts of Feddie MS.

Is there any reason such a retrofit couldn't or shouldn't work?
It's definitely possible to upgrade old Zakus so they can use beam weapons. The best case in point would be the Desert Zaku which appears in Gundam ZZ - it has a Gelgoog-level generator and is shown using a Gelgoog beam rifle.

Refitting a Zaku to use GM parts and GM weapons, though, would be a much bigger challenge since the technologies are so completely different. It took the Federation years to achieve this in the form of the Hizack, so I doubt a handful of resource-strapped Zeon remnants could pull it off.

What's more, beam weapons are actually one of the most scarce resources in the post-One Year War era. Most of the surviving Gelgoogs (like the Gelgoog Marines of the Cima fleet) use machine guns instead, and the Federation likewise switches back to projectile weapons for most of its mobile suits. The notion of a Zeon remnant group that has more spare beam weapons than mobile suits seems kind of backwards to me.

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon May 31, 2010 9:55 pm

Imperial wrote:I'm curious to hear more about these "several retcons and upgrades" that allow Zakus to use beam weapons. I'm especially puzzled by a Stutzer with a beam rifl. This is all news to me.
Mahq's profile points out that it's using an auxiliary generator strapped on it's back.
Imperial wrote:Sure, there are things like the Zaku Sniper I from the Harmony of Gundam, but it has to hook up to a portable generator in order to use that beam sniper rifle.
The Zaku Sniper has the generator integrated as part of it's backpack, although I don't know if it can atually detach it, which sounds more like the case of the Zaku Cannon in which there's explicit mention of it being able to discard it's backpack in a difficult situation.
Zerosystem wrote:The only things like that I can recall at the moment are the Act Zaku and that newtype monkey piloted variant of what is probably a F-type Zaku II with four arms and no legs, each arm holding a beam rifle.
Both the Act Zaku and the MS-06R-2P (as it's succesive forms) can use beam weapons, but in the case of the Act Zaku we are also told that the MS itself was already complete at one point while development of the beam rifle continued, which basically confirms Mark's idea of there being less beam weapons than MS capable of using them.
toysdream wrote:What's more, beam weapons are actually one of the most scarce resources in the post-One Year War era. Most of the surviving Gelgoogs (like the Gelgoog Marines of the Cima fleet) use machine guns instead, and the Federation likewise switches back to projectile weapons for most of its mobile suits. The notion of a Zeon remnant group that has more spare beam weapons than mobile suits seems kind of backwards to me.

-- Mark
At first sight, the main advantage of e-caps is that the hand held weapons can be more easily aimed. But how about units with mega particle guns and cannons powered directly by their generators, could their advantage lie elsewhere?:

Correct me I'm wrong, but aren't we led to believe that one of the reasons behind the development of the Gelgoog Cannon was that the beam rifles were not ready. Could the scarcity of beam rifles, or more like the scarcity of e-caps, been a deciding factor for Zeon to decide to produce 122 additional Gelgoog Cannons? Actually the profiel's mention of "components" did made me wonder if these components were actually meant to be used on the other 150 Gelgoogs that existed between A and B types rather than whole MS.

In 0083 only the Gundams and GM Cannon II use long range beam weapons. In the case of the Gundams we can easily consider this as part of them being high spec unit equipped with the best gear, but could the fact that the GM Cannon II's beam cannons are connected to the main body been the reason it has beam weapons unlike other units from the same era? Even the GM Custom, another high spec limited production unit, is always seen using machineguns, even thought it's profile clearly indicates that it can use beam rifles.

Could this mean that there is some advantage, possibly cost wise, in using beam weapons powered directly by the MS generator over beam weapons using e-caps? Could it be that a high cost of e-caps affected the use of beam weapons used by both parties between the end of the OYW and the aftermath of Operation Stardust?

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by mcred23 » Mon May 31, 2010 11:39 pm

Well, for Zeon, the lack of beam weapons is likely due to the fact that the majority of the mobile suits were older Zaku IIs and Rick Doms (And the various varients of either type) which couldn't use beam rifles, and they likely had plenty of their normal weapons laying around as it was. Remnant groups like the Delaz Fleet and Cima's Marines, which lack effective resources and facilities, likely use machine guns as they are easier to maintain and find parts for than beam rifles, which, for Zeon, were always rare to begin with.

But for the Federation, I'm not so sure. They seemed to have no problem building large numbers of beam weapons during the OYW (Mainly beam spray guns, but also the assorted other rifles and guns used by other machine). The best reason offered for their switch back to machine guns has usually been that, at the time, machine guns held several advantages over beam rifles (More ammo, higher rate of fire, and perhaps better range than beam spray guns). Of course, with machine guns likely being cheaper to build as well, that would probably be an added benefit that led to their use until better beam rifles came along shortly after Stardust (Like this model, used by the GM Quel, GM II, Nemo, and GM III).
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Imperial » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:56 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Imperial wrote:I'm curious to hear more about these "several retcons and upgrades" that allow Zakus to use beam weapons. I'm especially puzzled by a Stutzer with a beam rifl. This is all news to me.
Mahq's profile points out that it's using an auxiliary generator strapped on it's back.
Imperial wrote:Sure, there are things like the Zaku Sniper I from the Harmony of Gundam, but it has to hook up to a portable generator in order to use that beam sniper rifle.
The Zaku Sniper has the generator integrated as part of it's backpack, although I don't know if it can atually detach it, which sounds more like the case of the Zaku Cannon in which there's explicit mention of it being able to discard it's backpack in a difficult situation.
I see. All of that is news to me. I didn't realize the Zaku family got quite so far along with beam weapons.

I will know better when I feel the urge to start running my mouth the next time.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by CidHighwind » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:30 pm

It has probably been retconned to hell and back by now, but the earliest tech manuals for Gundam, (around the 80s) mentioned that Zeon MS used a fluid recirculation system powered by minovsky physics, and that Federation MS used an electrical motor of sorts (also powered by minovsky physics). Two completely different motivation systems.

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:55 pm

Imperial wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Imperial wrote:I'm curious to hear more about these "several retcons and upgrades" that allow Zakus to use beam weapons. I'm especially puzzled by a Stutzer with a beam rifl. This is all news to me.
Mahq's profile points out that it's using an auxiliary generator strapped on it's back.
Imperial wrote:Sure, there are things like the Zaku Sniper I from the Harmony of Gundam, but it has to hook up to a portable generator in order to use that beam sniper rifle.
The Zaku Sniper has the generator integrated as part of it's backpack, although I don't know if it can atually detach it, which sounds more like the case of the Zaku Cannon in which there's explicit mention of it being able to discard it's backpack in a difficult situation.
I see. All of that is news to me. I didn't realize the Zaku family got quite so far along with beam weapons.

I will know better when I feel the urge to start running my mouth the next time.
The Zaku and Gouf do not have the internal generator power to drive a beam weapon. the Zaku sniper rifle is like the GM Ground sniper rifle it needs a separate cooling and generatior unit to power the gun and the ms acts as a fire control system. The act zaku was a spin off of the gelgoog dev cycle. the dom uses a system like the zaku sniper the bazooka "clip" is the power source for the gun with the dom only acting as a fire control system.

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by domtropen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:54 pm

In order to use beam weapons IIRC a facility for maintainance is needed as well.

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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:29 pm

JEFFPIATT wrote:The Zaku and Gouf do not have the internal generator power to drive a beam weapon. the Zaku sniper rifle is like the GM Ground sniper rifle it needs a separate cooling and generatior unit to power the gun and the ms acts as a fire control system. The act zaku was a spin off of the gelgoog dev cycle. the dom uses a system like the zaku sniper the bazooka "clip" is the power source for the gun with the dom only acting as a fire control system.
While generator power is important, it's not the only thing that matters. After all, there were various MS with 1000+ kW of power for reactors early on, yet not able to use beam weapons for one reason or another or even ones with weaker reactors than others, yet able to mount beam weaponry stronger than others. Even as far as Victory, you got MS like the Godzorla that are unable to at least effectively use its beam weapons.

And you can't really compare the Zaku Sniper with the GM Ground Type Sniper.

The GM Ground Type was already able to effectively use beam rifles and beam sabers, but it needed the external reactor and cooling for the sniper rifle in order to maintain the precision fire necessary to be able to snipe distance targets. Not to mention, at least with the animation, it was much more like a laser than a beam given the amount of focus required to fire such a shot AND it was maintaining the shot for several seconds which would've most likely caused a reactor overload without the external reactor and coolant.

Though, I can't remember, but I don't recall seeing any external systems with the 2nd GM Sniper that hit the Apsalus (and the Ez-8) on the hillside.

The Zaku Snipers (Zaku Is no less) would really have no choice when it came to beam weapons in general, much less a sniper of all things. Its already low reactor would probably be using a majority of its power just to work the MS itself.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Quan88 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:14 pm

the main factor is Zeon Force lack of pilot for MS
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by ORegan » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:23 pm

Quan88 wrote:the main factor is Zeon Force lack of pilot for MS

Zeon couldn't re-engineer the Zaku II to carry beam weapons because they lacked pilots? How do either have anything to do with each other.
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Re: Early Zeon MS + beam weapons

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:32 pm

I think he was trying to say that, in general, Zeon's problem was a lack of manpower rather than technological limitations. Not directly related to the topic of Zeon MS retrofitted with beam weapons, but more or less accurate none the less.
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