No YF-20?

[DuelGundam2099]

This is the second time I've ever asked such a question so maybe I'll get something out of this.

For those of you who have seen Macross Plus (or look on the main site) you're more than well aware of the two main war machines in the OVA: YF-19 and YF-21. I never saw or heard anything in the anime nor did I see anything on the main site in regards to this question so I am just going to flat out ask:

Is there any reason there is no YF-20? Were there blueprints for one but it got scrapped? Did enemy forces (Zentradi or Anti UN Spacy or whatever) steal and/or destroy it? Was one being developed somewhere else? Or was the staff of Plus trying to pull a Guren for no real reason?

[MrMarch]

Macross Plus deals with the two competing variable fighters that were part of the Project Super Nova AVF competition (the YF-19 and YF-21) and not any other fighter craft that may or may not have been part of that competition. Macross creator Shoji Kawamori is a well know aviation fanatic and much of the fiction he builds for the Macross universe is informed by the real aviation world. Part of that feeling of reality created for Macross has alot to do with the naming conventions of fighter craft and providing the audience with the impression of a perpetual history for that fictional world. Macross Plus takes place roughly 30 years after the original Macross and it's clear that in that time there have been other fighters developed in between the last variable fighter we saw (the VF-4 Lightining III in Flashback 2012) and the VF-11 Thunderbolt that Isamu is seen flying in Macross Plus. Whether or not the interim fighter craft (VF's 5 to 10) are ever seen is less important than implying they exist and thus implying Macross has a richly detailed history that suspends disbelief in the fiction for the audience watching Macross Plus.

I've no idea what "pulling a Guren" means.

[Bonesy!]

It's in the same place where the VF-1B, C, E, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, T, U, V, W, Y, and Z are.

[Arsarcana]

I've no idea what "pulling a Guren" means.

I'm guessing it's a reference to Code Geass, where we see the Guren Nishiki (ie, Mk. II) but never see the presumed original.

Anyhow, yeah. There presumably was a YF or VF-20 somewhere (among other missing nubers) but we haven't seen it, probably never will and it's not important that we do.

[DuelGundam2099]

I'm guessing it's a reference to Code Geass, where we see the Guren Nishiki (ie, Mk. II) but never see the presumed original.

What he said.

Macross creator Shoji Kawamori is a well know aviation fanatic and much of the fiction he builds for the Macross universe is informed by the real aviation world.

That I can understand, but it still makes me wonder why skip a number between two models especially since they made a 4 episode anime and movie based on both of them competing (and ending up in SRW titles).

[azrael]

Is there any reason there is no YF-20? Were there blueprints for one but it got scrapped? Did enemy forces (Zentradi or Anti UN Spacy or whatever) steal and/or destroy it? Was one being developed somewhere else? Or was the staff of Plus trying to pull a Guren for no real reason?

As said, if there was a YF-20, it's not important. Same reason why the JSF program came down to the X-32 and the X-35 (later the F-35). If there was any in between, it's not important.

That I can understand, but it still makes me wonder why skip a number between two models especially since they made a 4 episode anime and movie based on both of them competing (and ending up in SRW titles).

Why not? Even Gundam skips numbers.

[MrMarch]

I've no idea what "pulling a Guren" means.

I'm guessing it's a reference to Code Geass, where we see the Guren Nishiki (ie, Mk. II) but never see the presumed original.

LOL Thanks for the explanation.
Given Code Geass came out in 2007 I think it's safe to say Kawamori wasn't pulling a Guren when he made Macross Plus back in 1994

That I can understand, but it still makes me wonder why skip a number between two models especially since they made a 4 episode anime and movie based on both of them competing (and ending up in SRW titles).

I don't believe there's any particular reason for skipping the number 20. It's probably reading too much into it to consider the number skip anymore than that. However it is a known writers trick that using odd numbers in fiction can make the fiction feel more real than it would using even numbers.

[Areku]

Personally, I don't think it's a matter of a "missing" YF-20 so much as it is a matter of where the designations YF-19 and YF-21 might come from. I was always under the impression that YF-19 and YF-21 were picked because of their non-existence as fighters in the American military at the time Plus was released. Looking back at American designations, there's the F-14 Tomcat (we all know this plane, it was even the basis for the original Valkyrie, the VF-1). There's the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon. There's the YF-17 Cobra, which was the F-16's competitor and was later redesigned into the F/A-18 Hornet. Northrop tried their best to sell the completed F-20 Tigershark, and the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition had come down to the YF-22 Raptor and YF-23 Black Widow II (we all know which won the competition in 1991). But there's no F-19 or F-21, unless we count the 25 F-21 Kfir's that Israel leased to America, but it technically wasn't an American plane.

At the time of Plus' release, there weren't any prospective planes exceeding -23 (JSF prototype contracts weren't awarded until 1996), leaving -19 and -21 as the most recent "missing" American fighters. Sounds like perfect inspiration for an aviation fan like Kawamori, especially considering the recent conclusion of the ATF competition.

On a side note, we all know how the YF-21 resembles the YF-23, and out of the many proposals put forward during ATF, one from Grumman looks unusually similar to the YF-19, even more than does the SU-47.

[quasadra]

IIRC there is a YF-19 look alike is called X-29. as a technology test bed for reverse wing design. i dont remember its before or after the anime though.

[azrael]

IIRC there is a YF-19 look alike is called X-29. as a technology test bed for reverse wing design. i dont remember its before or after the anime though.

That is correct. Kawamori did base his design on the X-29. And he did know that Sukhoi was developing the Su-47 at the time, but the Su-47's first flight won't be for another 3 years after Macross Plus.

[DuelGundam2099]

At the time of Plus' release, there weren't any prospective planes exceeding -23 (JSF prototype contracts weren't awarded until 1996), leaving -19 and -21 as the most recent "missing" American fighters. Sounds like perfect inspiration for an aviation fan like Kawamori, especially considering the recent conclusion of the ATF competition.

I see, makes sense.

As said, if there was a YF-20, it's not important

Neither was Unit 04 in NGE, but Gainax was at least kind enough to release a few pics.

Why not? Even Gundam skips numbers.

Sadly I don't really notice that in mobile suit serial numbers because of actual mobile suit names, Macross on the other hand has several machines (Valkyries for example) that have the same name so the only way to name them apart is by serial numbers.

[Areku]

That is correct. Kawamori did base his design on the X-29. And he did know that Sukhoi was developing the Su-47 at the time, but the Su-47's first flight won't be for another 3 years after Macross Plus.

Do we know that he based it off the X-29, or is that an assumption (reasonable though it may be)? Because aside from forward swept wings and the presence of canards, there's very little in common between the YF-19 and the Grumman X-29. The X-29 was a purely experimental aircraft, was constructed from F-5 airframes (the F-5 itself was a light fighter), and had a single engine. The X-29's military usefulness was strictly limited to research into maneuverability and high angles of attack. The YF-19, on the other hand, was a large, twin-engine prototype for a stealthy frontline combat fighter. That's a world of difference.

Considering Kawamori's interest in aviation, it's very likely that he'd seen the image I posted, and that draft of a Grumman proposal in the ATF competition (large, twin-engine prototype for a stealthy frontline fighter) bears a far greater resemblance to the YF-19 than does the X-29, which just has forward swept wings and canards going for it. While the potential Grumman proposal was certainly based on the Grumman X-29, the former seems more like the direct inspiration for the YF-19. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Dr.G]

The reason is probably rooted in how the US Military bids contracts. When the military wants a new plane/tank/ship/anything they develop a spec (i.e. carries 10000lb of weapons and can go mach 2) that is published for various companies to bid on. Any company can present an interest bid, and start to develop a weapon to meet the spec, the military then assigns any reasonable seeming bids numbers. However what often might seem good on paper may not work out at all in production and often times contracts are developed such that competition is reduced in stages to the best two or three presented. So in the case of the YF-20 there was probably an initial bid submitted, but it was canceled by either the company or the government for one reason or another.

[azrael]

Do we know that he based it off the X-29, or is that an assumption (reasonable though it may be)?

Yes we do. The Kawamori Macross Design Works book mentions the X-29 in the YF-19's conception. In fact, when he was designing the YF-19's fighter mode, it started out with a single engine block look until he migrated to a twin engine block look shortly after that sketch.

[Areku]

The Kawamori Macross Design Works book mentions the X-29 in the YF-19's conception.

Fair enough.

[MrMarch]

In additon to the X-29's mention on page 82 of Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works (2001), the X-29 is also mentioned as a design influence on the YF-19 in This Is Animation The Select: Macross Plus Movie Edition published way back in 1995. Here's a picture of the page:

TIAS Macross Plus X-29 page

The book also mentions several other fighters as influence on the YF-19/YF-21 including the Su-27, F-22 and YF-23.

[Aegis]

As said, if there was a YF-20, it's not important

Neither was Unit 04 in NGE, but Gainax was at least kind enough to release a few pics.

Unlike a so-called YF-20, however, Unit 04 actually served a purpose in NGE, thus the fact it actually got a mention despite not having any real appearance, thus we subsequently get pics. The so-called YF-20 did not even get a mention, nevermind that it didn't even play anything significant, thus we get nothing. Besides, what Gainax wants to do is Gainax's business and they can release whatever they want to their fans.

Sadly I don't really notice that in mobile suit serial numbers because of actual mobile suit names, Macross on the other hand has several machines (Valkyries for example) that have the same name so the only way to name them apart is by serial numbers.

Eh, most valkyries if not all do have unique names to the model numbers as well, so that's moot. Regardless of it all, the point being is that mobile suits also don't go through the gamut of putting every serial number, thus Macross isn't so special that it must have every model number accounted for. We can come up with all the reasons as stated in the thread, and I like many of the explanations, but otherwise in the end it isn't all that important.

[MrMarch]

Perhaps DuelGundam2099 is speaking about variant versions of the SAME Valkyrie having the same name. For example, he may be thinking the VF-1A Valkyrie and VF-1S Valkyrie are two different variable fighters that can only be distinguished with a serial number. However, the "A" and "S" are not different variable fighters but merely different types of the same class and thus they are classified as "Valkyrie" appropriately.

Nonetheless, here is a list of variable fighter classes and their letter designations (separated by "/"):

VB-6 König Monster
VF-0A/D/S Phoenix
VF-0A Phoenix "Angel
VF-0S Phoenix PWS-0X Reactive Armor
SV-51
VE-1 Elint Seeker Valkyrie
VF-1A/D/J/S Valkyrie
VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie
VF-1A/J/S Super Valkyrie
VF-1S Strike Valkyrie
VT-1 Ostrich Valkyrie
VT-1C Commercial Valkyrie
VF-1X Valkyrie Plus
VA-3/C/M Invader
VA-3C Invader Custom
VF-4/G Lightning III
VF-5000B/G/T-G Star Mirage
VF-9 Cutlass
VF-3000 Crusader
VF-11B/C/D Thunderbolt
VF-11B/C/D Super Thunderbolt
VF-11B/C Thunderbolt APS-11 Protect Armor
VF-14 Vampire
YF-19
YF-21
VF-17D/S/T Nightmare
VF-19A/F/S/P Excalibur
VF-22/S Sturmvogel II
VF-11MAXL Thunderbolt Custom
VF-17T Nightmare Custom
VF-19 Excalibur Custom
VF-171 Nightmare Plus
VF-171EX Nightmare Plus
RVF-25 Messiah
VF-25F/G/S Messiah
VF-27 Lucifer

M2
VA-1SS Metal Siren
VF-2JA Icarus
VF-2SS Valkyrie II

[DuelGundam2099]

Perhaps DuelGundam2099 is speaking about variant versions of the SAME Valkyrie having the same name.

I was, sorry I didn't word it properly.

Nonetheless, here is a list of variable fighter classes and their letter designations (separated by "/"):

Thanks MrMarch.