Tallgeese's Speed

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DoubleZero
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Tallgeese's Speed

Post by DoubleZero » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:08 am

I don't know if this has been brought up already, but does anybody have an idea how fast the Tallgeese can move? I keep hearing that it has 3Gs acceleration. :|
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Zerosystem » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:13 am

The actual remark from the show is that it has three times the acceleration of the Aries.

There have never been any speed figures released for Wing about the Tallgeese.. In fact, I don't think there are very many figures for actual speed for mobile suits or mobile armors for Gundam in general. Wing has this numbering system where the Leo is used as a standard where all of its abilities are set at 100, but it doesn't really mean anything since it's not a measure of anything, there aren't any units mentioned, and they don't really follow it in the show.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by AnimeMun » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:06 am

If you were to compare stats to say, OYW mobile suits I would say Leos are equivalent to a Zaku II, an Aries is equivalent to say, Char's Zaku II plus flying capability as its doesn't transform like a Taurus does which you could compare a Taurus to any of the off the shelf transformable suits from Zeta. So since the Tallgeese is comprable to a Gundam in Wing then I would say that the best comparison would have to be to a Gelgoog if you want to stick to OYW standards. I hope that helps.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:06 pm

The 3Gs might come from calculation of acceleration using its mass and thruster output. But it's a really rough estimate, since the problem is that we don't know the full mass of the Tallgeese with propellant, weapons, and other instruments loaded.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Zerosystem » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm

AnimeMun wrote:If you were to compare stats to say, OYW mobile suits I would say Leos are equivalent to a Zaku II, an Aries is equivalent to say, Char's Zaku II plus flying capability as its doesn't transform like a Taurus does which you could compare a Taurus to any of the off the shelf transformable suits from Zeta. So since the Tallgeese is comprable to a Gundam in Wing then I would say that the best comparison would have to be to a Gelgoog if you want to stick to OYW standards. I hope that helps.
I'm not really sure you can compare the Taurus to just any TMS/TMA from Zeta. Around the time when the Tauruses first appear, in one scene 5 Taurus mobile dolls attack a Alliance colony garrison. The Leo pilots remark at the Tauruses' performance, and one mentions that the Taurus pulls an astounding 5 Gs of acceleration when it flew past two Leos, executed a 180 degree turn and took them both out, which is a figure not even touched by the machines of the F91 era.

In a discussion from a long time ago on a certain board, I made a comparison between the Tallgeese and "a machine of average specifications according to the F91 era". I made this comparison on the following basis:

Flight Capability
Both machines are at least capable of flight. Even if the F91 era machine isn't aerodynamic, it like the Tallgeese can probably fly under pure power and thrust, thanks to the 4 Gs of vernier output. The Tallgeese is a larger machine (18m) but it seems to be agile enough as Zechs shows in the anime.

Weapons
They both have beam weapons of course, but one of the iconic weapons of the F91 era is the beam launcher, which is like the beam equivalent of a bazooka. The Tallgeese's dobergun is very similar to this, similar shape, appears to have a similar power output, more than a beam rifle. I'm pretty sure their beam sabres are more or less just as effective as the other one is, no real difference between these two weapons.

Armor
I don't know about the Tallgeese, but it seemed with withstand a few shots from the Taurus beam rifle when it was destroyed. None of those shots were direct, though. The F91 era machine isn't likely to withstand shots from even conventional shell-firing weapons, as the mobile suit development philosophy at the time emphasized speed and maneuverability over armor.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by blind_dead_mcjones » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:57 pm

Zerosystem wrote: Weapons
They both have beam weapons of course, but one of the iconic weapons of the F91 era is the beam launcher, which is like the beam equivalent of a bazooka. The Tallgeese's dobergun is very similar to this, similar shape, appears to have a similar power output, more than a beam rifle.
power output? isn't the dobergun a shell firing weapon?
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Zerosystem » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:49 pm

blind_dead_mcjones wrote:
Zerosystem wrote: Weapons
They both have beam weapons of course, but one of the iconic weapons of the F91 era is the beam launcher, which is like the beam equivalent of a bazooka. The Tallgeese's dobergun is very similar to this, similar shape, appears to have a similar power output, more than a beam rifle.
power output? isn't the dobergun a shell firing weapon?
That's a topic best left to another thread, perhaps this one.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10710

To leave it short, the dobergun is shell-firing and beam-firing whenever it wants to be.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:58 pm

Zerosystem wrote:I'm not really sure you can compare the Taurus to just any TMS/TMA from Zeta. Around the time when the Tauruses first appear, in one scene 5 Taurus mobile dolls attack a Alliance colony garrison. The Leo pilots remark at the Tauruses' performance, and one mentions that the Taurus pulls an astounding 5 Gs of acceleration when it flew past two Leos, executed a 180 degree turn and took them both out, which is a figure not even touched by the machines of the F91 era.
Edit: Rewatched the scene.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding regarding that statement. To quote directly, the pilot remarked that "The enemy mobile suit's speed accelerated to 8 Gs". The quote itself makes no sense, since speed (or velocity) cannot be measured in units of gravity. Aside from that, the stats themselves makes it quite improbably that the Taurus can achieve such raw acceleration, so more likely than not I'm assuming he was referring to the Gs experienced by the Taurus during its maneuvers. This certainly would be astounding, as regular human pilots should not be able to withstand such force for prolonged duration. Of course, I'm no expert on the matter, so perhaps someone else could help clarify.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Zerosystem » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:10 pm

Genocide wrote: Edit: Rewatched the scene.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding regarding that statement. To quote directly, the pilot remarked that "The enemy mobile suit's speed accelerated to 8 Gs". The quote itself makes no sense, since speed (or velocity) cannot be measured in units of gravity. Aside from that, the stats themselves makes it quite improbably that the Taurus can achieve such raw acceleration, so more likely than not I'm assuming he was referring to the Gs experienced by the Taurus during its maneuvers. This certainly would be astounding, as regular human pilots should not be able to withstand such force for prolonged duration. Of course, I'm no expert on the matter, so perhaps someone else could help clarify.
Ahh, that's right. I couldn't recall if it was 5 or 8 Gs, and I made the wrong guess.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that battle was meant to illustrate how frightening mobile doll AI can be, because they have no human limitations. It might have been a terribly poor way of saying it, but given the context of the scene and when the line was said (the Taurus screamed past the two Leos), it seems to me that they meant to say that it was accelerating at 8 Gs as it flanked them.

I'm not fond of the stats that Gundam Wing gives its mecha. As I've said before, the system makes no sense and the show doesn't follow it at all. Consider this scene:

Episode 41, where Barge was destroyed. The space fortress Barge was recharging its large beam cannon, and the Deathscythe Hell and Sandrock were trying to get to Barge as fast as they could to take out the cannon before it fires. Now, Sandrock and Deathscythe Hell are respectively the slowest and fastest Gundams out of all of them, according to the official stats (Sandrock: 120; Deathscythe Hell: 170).

The problem with this, is that Duo and Quatre are both alongside each other for the duration of the entire run towards Barge. It's a life or death situation for that nearby colony, so they won't be tagging along with each other just because they're pals, yet it seems like they're trying to get there as soon as possible. You could say that they met some resistance, but there weren't that many enemies and there was a very long shot of them flying after having sliced up some enemies without too much trouble.

On top of that, the Epyon which was held back by Noin's Taurus breaks free long after Duo and Quatre have left. It then proceeds to catch up to and pass Sandrock and Deathscythe Hell effortlessly in a ridiculously short amount of time, despite technically being slower that the Deathscythe Hell (Epyon: 160).

I shouldn't drag on too long on this tangent, but I just wanted to say that Wing's stat system isn't really worth considering at all. It's not measurable, it's not calculated, it doesn't reflect any of what happened in the series.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:19 am

Zerosystem wrote:I shouldn't drag on too long on this tangent, but I just wanted to say that Wing's stat system isn't really worth considering at all. It's not measurable, it's not calculated, it doesn't reflect any of what happened in the series.
Well, I think that issue falls on official Gundam statistics in general, not just Wing. In fact, I find it even more glaring in 0083, Zeta and ZZ, where mobile suits rarely behave comparatively as you would expect from the paper-stats.

Anyway, when I said that the 8 Gs of acceleration was improbable, I was referring specifically to the Taurus' known mass, and the known thruster output and empty mass of certain MS from Endless Waltz. The Tallgeese III, for example, accelerates at over 10 Gs if you only consider its empty mass - which is entirely impossible, since it needs propellant to accelerate and propellant adds to its mass. If you consider things like its weapons and shield, I'd say 22 tons would be a reasonably fair and conservative estimate (based on the "empty mass-to-full mass" transition of most MS in F91 and Victory), giving it roughly 4 Gs of acceleration with a full load-out.

As for actually comparing the Tallgeese and other mobile suits from Wing with those of F91, I think it's fair in terms of raw acceleration but the rest is a mixed bag of "old" and "new". The underlying technology for example is still lacking in terms of things like beam shields, VSBRs, and more "mobile" frames (smaller physical dimensions, non-rigid armor plating, etc). Things like weapons also don't seem quite as developed, with a few exceptions of course. In general, I think the sheer differences in MS development and design philosophies makes it really hard to compare machines in Wing to UC ones regardless of the era.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by DoubleZero » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:23 am

"The enemy mobile suit's speed accelerated to 8 Gs".
But I heard from somewhere that in the Japanese dub, the leo pilot says something different like the enemy suit is pulling out 8G maneuvers or something like that.
I'd say 22 tons would be a reasonably fair and conservative estimate (based on the "empty mass-to-full mass" transition of most MS in F91 and Victory), giving it roughly 4 Gs of acceleration with a full load-out.
But doesn't that contradict Zech's ribs breaking due to sheer G forces?

On another note, I think in Endless Waltz, Tallgeese III broke through orbit to go intercept Marameia's fleet of Serpents in space.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Geoxile » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:32 am

I think the real point is...

Gundam has always been comprised of wonky science. It's best not to dwell on the acceleration number of a MS.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Wingnut » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:10 am

DoubleZero wrote:On another note, I think in Endless Waltz, Tallgeese III broke through orbit to go intercept Marameia's fleet of Serpents in space.
True, but there's nothing to show that he didn't have the help of a discardable booster or something to get him into orbit like he did with the first Tallgeese.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:40 am

DoubleZero wrote:But I heard from somewhere that in the Japanese dub, the leo pilot says something different like the enemy suit is pulling out 8G maneuvers or something like that.
That's how I took the statement when I first heard it, since the Taurus was zipping around with incredible speed and doing so in very fast increments.
But doesn't that contradict Zech's ribs breaking due to sheer G forces?
Not really. I'd imagine that being a relatively archaic machine (technology wise), the Tallgeese doesn't have as many G-force inhibitors as more advanced machines in Wing. While they are never mentioned explicitly like in UC with the magnetic arms, one would imagine some measure is generally used to lighten the force exerted on pilots. Also, as could be the case with the Taurus, it may be the maneuvers themselves causing most of the Gs, which seems to be the case judging by the animation.
On another note, I think in Endless Waltz, Tallgeese III broke through orbit to go intercept Marameia's fleet of Serpents in space.
Due to lack of evidence to the contrary, I'd have to say it likely did have a booster for that. The fact is that exiting the atmosphere on its own would be an incredible waste of fuel even if it were capable of doing so, and despite how much power it may have it would not be able to reach its destination as fast without the aid of an external booster.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by DoubleZero » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:58 am

Genocide wrote:Not really. I'd imagine that being a relatively archaic machine (technology wise), the Tallgeese doesn't have as many G-force inhibitors as more advanced machines in Wing.
Then how come jet pilots could withstand 5Gs of acceleration in a jet cockpit without their ribs breaking? And sometimes even going beyond that. A jet isn't nearly as advanced as a mobile suit. :|

EDIT: Does G-force inhibitors even exist? I only know that Gundams in AD has them basically because of the Anti-gravity effects of the GN-particles, but there's not much evidence of G-Force inhibitors for mobile suits existing in other Gundam Universes.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Newtype87 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:30 am

DoubleZero wrote:
Genocide wrote:Not really. I'd imagine that being a relatively archaic machine (technology wise), the Tallgeese doesn't have as many G-force inhibitors as more advanced machines in Wing.
Then how come jet pilots could withstand 5Gs of acceleration in a jet cockpit without their ribs breaking? And sometimes even going beyond that. A jet isn't nearly as advanced as a mobile suit. :|

EDIT: Does G-force inhibitors even exist? I only know that Gundams in AD has them basically because of the Anti-gravity effects of the GN-particles, but there's not much evidence of G-Force inhibitors for mobile suits existing in other Gundam Universes.
Well, the advantage of panoramic cockpits in UC was that the chairs could basically be mounted on shock absorbers to help absorb some of the stress of combat, if I recall correctly. And they did have anti-G mechanisms in Gundam 00 before GN technology: Graham's custom Flag is mentioned as having problems protecting him from G Forces, and the Gundam's anti-g tech is simply superior to anything anyone else has because of GN tech. But, offhand, I cannot recall any inertial dampener technology being mentioned in any other Gundam work. Pilot suits might have some fancy air or liquid bladders to help the pilot cope with the forces involved, but besides that I've got nothing.

As a side note, I think G Gundam has artificial gravity and thus would have inertial dampening systems. At least, that's what I'd have to assume is so.
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:05 pm

DoubleZero wrote:Then how come jet pilots could withstand 5Gs of acceleration in a jet cockpit without their ribs breaking? And sometimes even going beyond that. A jet isn't nearly as advanced as a mobile suit. :|
Fighter planes and mobile suits operate quite differently and typically serve completely different purposes. Regardless, please read my full post. :?
Also, as could be the case with the Taurus, it may be the maneuvers themselves causing most of the Gs, which seems to be the case judging by the animation.
To put this into perspective, the Gaplant's MAHQ profile says, "The G-forces it endured meant that the Gaplant could only be operated by genetically-engineered "strengthened humans" or the very toughest pilots"; yet its official acceleration is only at 1.94 Gs*. It's simple enough to draw from this that raw acceleration is not the only way a pilot experiences G-forces.

*keeping in mind that as propellant is expended, acceleration increases

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by DoubleZero » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:23 pm

Fighter planes and mobile suits operate quite differently and typically serve completely different purposes. Regardless, please read my full post. :?
Also, as could be the case with the Taurus, it may be the maneuvers themselves causing most of the Gs, which seems to be the case judging by the animation.
But in episode 9, Zechs was accelerating in a straight line towards the Alliance base, which made Zechs break his ribs and puke blood, not the crazy maneuvers Zechs was pulling out. :|
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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by Genocide » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:49 am

DoubleZero wrote:But in episode 9, Zechs was accelerating in a straight line towards the Alliance base, which made Zechs break his ribs and puke blood, not the crazy maneuvers Zechs was pulling out. :|
You need to consider all the factors involved here. Even if Zechs did sustain his injuries during that scene, it isn't fair to draw the conclusion that linear acceleration was the sole cause of the damage done. Considering he was pulling several intense maneuvers prior, it's very likely that his body was severely weakened already and, rather than letting his body rest and heal, the G-forces he experienced while dashing straight towards the base simply overwhelmed him.

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Re: Tallgeese's Speed

Post by DoubleZero » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:35 am

Genocide wrote:
DoubleZero wrote:But in episode 9, Zechs was accelerating in a straight line towards the Alliance base, which made Zechs break his ribs and puke blood, not the crazy maneuvers Zechs was pulling out. :|
You need to consider all the factors involved here. Even if Zechs did sustain his injuries during that scene, it isn't fair to draw the conclusion that linear acceleration was the sole cause of the damage done. Considering he was pulling several intense maneuvers prior, it's very likely that his body was severely weakened already and, rather than letting his body rest and heal, the G-forces he experienced while dashing straight towards the base simply overwhelmed him.
Well, Zechs seems to be handling those maneuvers, and the only time Zechs pushed those super verniers to their limits is when he did that linear charge, thus the rib-breaking. Plus, it's actually more surprising that the linear acceleration at full throttle of the Tallgeese did more damage to Zechs than the maneuvers themselves.

And Otto's test of the Tallgeese tells us that it's 3 times faster than an Aries, but it's max acceleration is unknown because Otto lost consciousness during the test. But how did Otto test the Tallgeese? A test for it's max acceleration?
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