Comparison of UC and AD Tech

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Dean_the_Young
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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by Dean_the_Young » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:44 pm

Genocide wrote:
Dean_the_Young wrote:Most all other Gundam series go with the 'rocket on back to fly forward', and focus on that. Mobility is usually measured by how quickly a mobile suit can turn around and face it's back pact in the proper direction. Lateral drift, let alone flying backwards, is almost unheard of, and yet it's a staple of GN drives.
I think that's a pretty accurate assessment, at least of what differences exist between GN machines and "standard" mobile suits. Still, I have to question whether the difference is that much in favor of GN drives, since earlier episodes in 00 show that conventional means of propulsion on mobile suits can match or even surpass the mobility of the Gundams (Over Flag and Taozi, in particular). Despite having a broader range of movements available, I don't think it's sufficient to say that there's necessarily more thrust produced by GN drives than conventional means.
A very good point to make, but on review you'll note I never said speed or thrust. :P

One of the mechanics that actually sort of changed between S1 and S2 of 00 was the introduction of GN capacitors and 'vectoring' to boost speed.

In S1, the way the GN drives were set allowed great acrobatics, but were limited in terms of speed: 'aircraft' MS were always acknowledged to be faster than the machines. However, speed isn't maneuverability: for example, see how fast you can change direction when jogging compared to a sprint. While a number of MS had a greater speed than the Gundams, few were as maneuverable. In series, only the Flags came close, and then only with the greatest of pilots like Graham. Even with their great design, they were limited by their engines. (I'd disagree about the Taozi: besides space, in which the Space Tieren special forces were focused on dodging everything, and in which the Taozi was fighting the Virtue, the Taozi never got in a real fight against a gundam. Every time it went against Kyrios, the QBW kicked in, and it only had to dodge one or two attacks.)

*While on S1, it should be noted that the GN drives do provide massive thrust. The Virtue alone was overpowering a squadron of Space Tierens despite being trapped and immobilized, and in their first engagement Setsuna sent Graham's Flag flying backwards with a single sword lock.


In Season Two, however, GN capacitors and vectoring came into play. GN capacitors could store GN particles and release them for a boost of acceleration (as seen in the Dynames and in several of the Innovator MS), or be vectored through 'engines' for greater forward speed, as seen in the A-HEADs and 00 Raisers twin drive system for a more continuous acceleration. The tradeoff for the vectoring, however, was a (limited) return to the usual 'must point forward' problems and a decrease in other movements. While the 00 got around this with it's rotating GN drive mounts, the A-HEAD never quite seemed to, though as Mr. Bushido made clear against the 00 it could still fly do so in a pinch. The MS with GN capacitor boosts maintained superb maneuverability, but remained limited in top speed.
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Genocide
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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by Genocide » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:05 pm

Dean_the_Young wrote:A very good point to make, but on review you'll note I never said speed or thrust. :P
My apologies for the misinterpretation. Although I suppose once vectoring does come into play, there seems to be less of a difference on either end. The 00 is certainly a special case, combining the movable thrusters of machines like the Mk II and GP01fb with the general benefits of GN drives.
*While on S1, it should be noted that the GN drives do provide massive thrust. The Virtue alone was overpowering a squadron of Space Tierens despite being trapped and immobilized, and in their first engagement Setsuna sent Graham's Flag flying backwards with a single sword lock.
In the case of Virtue and the 6 Tierens, I think it'd be important to consider that the Tierens weren't using their main thrusters against it. It's nevertheless impressive of course, but it was somewhat dubious when Sergei said it had "more thrust than six Tierens combined" since the four holding it via the wires were only using their forward verniers to pull perpendicularly, and the two latching on didn't exactly have a solid thrust trajectory.

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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by strike_zero » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:50 am

Wow thanks a lot guys. These are some pretty interesting tidbits that I've never considered before. :)

I don't suppose any paper stats exist for 00 mobile suits and weapons regarding their acceleration? I know it's always been a bit difficult to derive accurate numbers from the animation - and certainly animation age plays a huge role in this - but going back to my two examples, how would the Marasai and GN-X compare when it comes to speed and mobility?

Regarding the 00, I purposely want this to be a discussion between more modest machines because the special ones display... well... special things, and I'm quite sure that the 00 is well above most things in the early Universal Century. It managed to slice a large asteroid in half with its beam sabers and this was before it could stretch it out to Shining Finger Sword-size.

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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by MrMarch » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:32 am

strike_zero wrote:I don't suppose any paper stats exist for 00 mobile suits and weapons regarding their acceleration?
I haven't seen any, but I'd love to see them if there were. Statistics haven't really been generously created for Gundam productions in quite some time. A shame, because they were always interesting and fun to read.

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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by hellbore » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:21 am

Dean_the_Young wrote:As AD gundams have no thrusters, GN particles also provide propulsion.
Only half true as certain GN mecha actually have GN Thrusters, most notably the Dynames (waist), Cherudim (back), Kyrios and Arios (legs). The Drive Cone seen on other mecha (Exia, GN-X, 00, Ahead, etc.) also incorporate GN Thrusters.
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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by Dean_the_Young » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:25 pm

hellbore wrote:
Dean_the_Young wrote:As AD gundams have no thrusters, GN particles also provide propulsion.
Only half true as certain GN mecha actually have GN Thrusters, most notably the Dynames (waist), Cherudim (back), Kyrios and Arios (legs). The Drive Cone seen on other mecha (Exia, GN-X, 00, Ahead, etc.) also incorporate GN Thrusters.
Well, I thought it was clear I was talking about conventional rockets/engines/thrusters. GN particles/capacitors didn't really count for that. The only machine that I'm aware of that mixed a GN drive with conventional propulsion was Graham's GN Flag, which was hardly a complete machine.
strike_zero wrote:Wow thanks a lot guys. These are some pretty interesting tidbits that I've never considered before. :)

I don't suppose any paper stats exist for 00 mobile suits and weapons regarding their acceleration? I know it's always been a bit difficult to derive accurate numbers from the animation - and certainly animation age plays a huge role in this - but going back to my two examples, how would the Marasai and GN-X compare when it comes to speed and mobility?
The only 'stats' ever given for 00 were the most general of ones. I think there was a model kit that once made the analogy that if the S1 CB gundams averaged 100 in each Category, then the GN-X was a bit less, the GN-X III was 100, and the A-HEAD averaged around 140, and the S2 gundams were higher yet.
Regarding the 00, I purposely want this to be a discussion between more modest machines because the special ones display... well... special things, and I'm quite sure that the 00 is well above most things in the early Universal Century. It managed to slice a large asteroid in half with its beam sabers and this was before it could stretch it out to Shining Finger Sword-size.
Well, the 00 was only relevant in terms of orienting the GN output.

In terms of 'modest' GN MS, much of what I said still applies. The general advantages of GN tech in general are pretty impressive, as we saw with the S1 Gundams (which were as modest as we got, really: remember Exia blocking a Tieren-cannon shell with its shield without a scratch?). The only category I might say AD tech lags behind in is beam potency, which is always one of the trickiest between series. It certainly doesn't have the consistently overwhelming one-hit-kill factor of UC beam shots, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

If a GN beam shot is comparative to a UC shot, the fact that AD gundams can take a number of them (depending on how GN-strengthened their armor is) would mean that AD is superior in every way.

Of non-GN MS, it's much harder to say. Railguns are the standard for most of them, putting them ahead of the caliber/firepower of most conventional weapons of most the series. Tierens are made to take a beating, visibly so, while Flags and Enacts are leages more agile and faster than most grunt MS (and possibly many gundams).
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Re: Comparison of UC and AD Tech

Post by Genocide » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:09 pm

Dean_the_Young wrote:If a GN beam shot is comparative to a UC shot, the fact that AD gundams can take a number of them (depending on how GN-strengthened their armor is) would mean that AD is superior in every way.
Beam shots in general are quite inconclusive. Remember that there are also several times in UC shows where we see Gundams deflect beams. Those aren't the only examples mind you, but they happened to be the most convenient to find (not including scenes of obvious Newtype hax). I don't think there's any debate that the durability of AD Gundams are quite high, but aside from the Gundams themselves and certain prototypes, it's very rare we see GN machines fare against beams any better than UC MS. I'm inclined to stick with my theory that there isn't (and shouldn't be) much difference in terms of beam firepower, and while I agree there's certainly a defensive advantage for some AD MS, it's highly subjective depending on which MS you're comparing.
Of non-GN MS, it's much harder to say. Railguns are the standard for most of them, putting them ahead of the caliber/firepower of most conventional weapons of most the series. Tierens are made to take a beating, visibly so, while Flags and Enacts are leages more agile and faster than most grunt MS (and possibly many gundams).
Likewise, things like conventional weaponry don't seem too far off between the two. At least without any official quantification, I can't see a huge difference between the destructive power of, say, the Flag's linear rifle and the Dom's giant bazooka. The same could be said for speed and mobility. There's very little empirical evidence supporting a universal comparison, and ultimately as agile as Flags, Enacts and even GN-Xs may appear, they still can't dodge beams any better than your typical Gundam grunts.
It managed to slice a large asteroid in half with its beam sabers and this was before it could stretch it out to Shining Finger Sword-size.
If you're referring to this scene, then while not as impressive, it has been somewhat done before.

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