Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

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Deathzealot
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Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Deathzealot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:48 am

I figured I'll ask this of everyone here. I know there has been some talk about this in the past around when SEED first started to come out but I figured I bring back this old yet interesting subject.

Anyways, basically unlike UC Machines which had to have a proper reactor to use beam weapons, the CE machines do not have that problem. Therefore I wonder if it is possible for something say a GINN to carry around a beam rifle later in the First BVW? We see BuCUEs being retrofitted with beam sabers during the desert arc so it should not be to much trouble to do the same for the GINN. Granted I don't see a GINN able to use both a beam saber and a beam rifle, one or another but that is it. We do see Rau's CGUE use a Beam Rifle after Kira trashes his GuAIZ in Mendel.

Anyways what are your thoughts on this?

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quasadra
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by quasadra » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:51 am

GINN have an optional beam cannon. i dont think its that hard to give it a beam rifle or saber. since ZAFT built GUAIZ by the end of the war(instead of upgrading GINN with beam weapon), its safe to assume that GINN cant support beam weapon effectively. but then CE is kinda loose when it comes to the technology part... :roll:
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by draconins » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:17 am

Given that CGUE can use beam rifle I believe GINN can use beam rifle too as CGUE is more or less refined GINN. As far as I understand, CGUE is lesser armor variant with better maneuverability of GINN. Correct me if I am wrong. In Astray series, there is a GINN Tactical Air Recon variant with experimental beam rifle, http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-m ... tar-x1.htm.

As far as I know too, after the capture of four Earth Alliance prototype mobile suits, several CGUE are heavily modified with the new beam weapon technology as CGUE DEEP Arms, and were equipped with a dual beam cannons and a physical sword with a beam blade edge. The famous one is probably the Shiho Hahnenfuss's.

The question is probably practical problem upgrading all GINN with beam rifle usage capability in first BVW which may conflict with the starting of GuAIZ production and deployment (which already use this beam technology). Nevertheless, some GINN are equipped with M69 "Barrus" ion cannon tough, which may be similar on screen (which may be confused as similar type to Gundam's beam rifle) to beam weapons (as far as I remember Miguel Ailman was killed by Kira in GINN equipping this).

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quasadra
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by quasadra » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:45 am

i have completely forgotten about the DEEP ARMS. IIRC that thing have a horrible battery life. that thing is awesome, too bad i cant find its model kits locally anymore... :cry:
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Izayuukan » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:54 am

Yeah, ZAFT was using beam weapons for its Nazca-class ships before the theft of the GAT series. As for Mobile Suits, don't forget that the GINN had a beam cannon as part of the heavy weapons equipment package. One GINN used it in episode three I think of SEED. Of course, if you go to the page for the GINN the cannon is listed as both a "heavy ion cannon" and a "heavy particle cannon". So it isn't a beam of plasma, though it sure is coloured the same. Although, I don't really know what standard CE beam weapons actually are, though I do know that they are most certainly NOT lightspeed particle beams. Even the mighty Lohengrins travel at less than 100km/s.

But I digress. What you wondered was if ZAFT MS could carry beam rifles. Well, the Strike Gundam exhausted its power supply from firing its beam rifle too many times (causing the MS to go PS down). So that means that early rifles lacked an energy cap, and we did see in SEED Destiny that the ZAKU beam rifle have something like that. Anyway, therefore the early beam rifles had to be powered by the MS itself.

Given all that, I would say yes, a GINN could use a beam rifle, but only if GINN's have hand plugs. Whether a GINN's batteries are as good as those of the GAT-series machines I don't know for sure, but it should get off quite a few shots even with inferior batteries. After all, a GINN doesn't have to maintain power-hungry PS-Armour all the time, which would help immensely I'd imagine.

I don't think beam sabres use all that much power compared to the rifle. But, given how the Aegis went PS-Down twice in space of three(?) episodes after going 27 episodes without a single occurrence, and that both times it used its limb sabres extensively, I could be very wrong. But anyway, rarely does a MS in CE use a sabre and a rifle simultaneously, so a GINN could carry both, use one at a time and just swap when needed.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Deathzealot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:58 pm

Interesting idea about Handplugs I completely forgot all about those. Hmmmm... You know I just thought of something, the GINN would not have Handplugs or at least the right kind to power a beam rifle. The Ion Cannon would not be powered by the GINNs battery, for the Ion Cannon has its own internal battery one reason for how large it is. Since it looks like a glorified beam cannon.

As for the CGUE maybe a few of them had been refitted to have the proper handplugs and equipment to use a Beam Rifle. We only see any CGUE carrying beam rifles at the Battle of Mendel later at Jachin Due. Therefore perhaps after the DEEP Arms project some further CGUES went through a new refit.

Anyway those are my thoughts, any thoughts on it.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by DeltasTaii » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:23 pm

The GINN Type High Maneuver 2 has a low power Beam Carbine because the GINN's batteries weren't good enough to support a larger beam rifle like the GuAIZ. That's about the extent of it-whether that's because the carbine has lower energy draw, lower power requirements, or even its own power source in the back is up in the air. Also note it carries a katana instead of a beam saber to save power like Red Frame. The earlier Tactical Aerial Reconnaissance Type had an experimental beam assault rifle and semi-functional mirage colloid system, but that machine wouldn't be doing a lot of firing anyways and other than the massive solid lance the weapon's design is actually quite similar to the later carbine.

The GINN doesn't power the Barrus itself. As the massive size and magazine like part in the back suggest, it has its own power source. The thing is pretty underpowered and limited use for its size anyways.

ZAFT hands are probably interchangeable anyways, but one wouldn't necessarily expect earlier GINN types to have the power routing for it. The CGUE does have the upshot of being deployed in the same wave as the BuCUE, GOOhN, and DINN, so energy weapons were almost certainly planned for it before the GuAIZ was pushed up by the capturing of Gundam technology.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by jtrainor » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:42 pm

CGUEs can't use beam rifles. The onscreen instances where they do was specifically stated to be animation errors.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Deathzealot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:15 pm

Huh. Where did it say that?

jtrainor
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by jtrainor » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:16 pm

Director commentary, iirc.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by draconins » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:41 pm

DeltasTaii wrote:The GINN Type High Maneuver 2 has a low power Beam Carbine because the GINN's batteries weren't good enough to support a larger beam rifle like the GuAIZ. That's about the extent of it-whether that's because the carbine has lower energy draw, lower power requirements, or even its own power source in the back is up in the air. Also note it carries a katana instead of a beam saber to save power like Red Frame.
As far as I understand, the main reason the GINN High Maneuver can not have heavy armament is more related to usage of high performance thruster with probably same (or a bit upgraded) battery, as it use lightwave pulse thrusters in its wings. Even first version of GINN Type High Maneuver only uses 27mm armor assault rifle, compared to standard GINN 76mm machine gun.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by DeltasTaii » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:02 am

...the Type 2 doesn't use lightwave pulse thrusters. In fact, that's basically the point of the Type 2, that's it a cheaper, more efficient, more balanced High Maneuver GINN.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Deathzealot » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:49 am

It has high-input thrusters instead of the Lightwave Thrusters...

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Izayuukan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:20 am

Well, nobody knows what CE MS and ships use for propulsion (outside of a few specific MS like Destiny, Strike Freedom, Stargazer et cetera), because it is so, er, unexplained. In fact, it may just be unexplainable. Although thrusters still work even in PS-down, they appear to be solely based on power requirements and not fuel, such as when the Freedom and Justice were never shown to need to need reaction mass despite travelling vast distances in space and on Earth. In fact, nothing ever needed fuel, ever. I don't know about the Justice, but the Freedom doesn't have any air intake systems for its thrusters whatsoever, meaning it wasn't using jet propulsion on Earth, but an internal system.

So my overarching point is, maybe every flight-capable MS (barring that version of Astray with the fans) has some sort of weird system that needs almost no reaction mass. What it is exactly is impossible to say.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Crimson-Lightning » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:35 pm

Izayuukan wrote:Yeah, ZAFT was using beam weapons for its Nazca-class ships before the theft of the GAT series.
Beam weaponry were in use at the same time on ships utilized by the Alliance as well such as Spengler, , and Classes.
Izayuukan wrote:Although thrusters still work even in PS-down, they appear to be solely based on power requirements and not fuel, such as when the Freedom and Justice were never shown to need to need reaction mass despite travelling vast distances in space and on Earth. In fact, nothing ever needed fuel, ever.
The Alliance has optional propellant tanks that can be mounted on the Jet Striker. Since to my knowledge they're not mounted on every unit seen its probable that the Windam and Dagger Ls have internal supplies of propellant. Also in episode 2 of Seed a screen on the Archangel displays a fuel tank readout so it obviously uses fuel for something.

As for mounting beam weapons on a GINN I suppose its possible but doing didn't seem to be a concern of ZAFT's. Given that ZAFT is still fielding units like the Cgue, DINN, and many of their first war hold overs despite being outclassed in terms of weaponry and abilities really shows they have weak manufacturing power. So rather than equipping sub par units with better weapons they seemed to prefer focusing on rolling the newer and better units out.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Kuruni » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:17 am

On propellant tanks, it's also optional equipment for Raider Full Spec.
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Zerosystem » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:37 am

There's quite a bit of confusion about this because of the lack of information, we aren't told anything much more than that MS use batteries for power. Also, I'd like to point out that MAHQ's profile for the Sword Calamity states that:
The chest-mounted "Scylla" energy cannon from the Calamity Gundam remains, but its power has been reduced to 30% to provide more energy for thrusters.
As for the Jet Striker pack, I have to say, the pack looks like it utilizes a pair of turbofan jets for propulsion, not rockets/verniers/apogee motors like most other MS in CE and what have you, so that might be why it actually mentions the option of external propellant tanks.
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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by draconins » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:50 am

Crimson-Lightning wrote:As for mounting beam weapons on a GINN I suppose its possible but doing didn't seem to be a concern of ZAFT's. Given that ZAFT is still fielding units like the Cgue, DINN, and many of their first war hold overs despite being outclassed in terms of weaponry and abilities really shows they have weak manufacturing power. So rather than equipping sub par units with better weapons they seemed to prefer focusing on rolling the newer and better units out.
Hmm I am pretty much agree with ZAFT prefers focusing on rolling the newer and better units out but I disagree with the statement of ZAFT (PLANT) have weak manufacturing power. Rolling the newer and better units out is actually harder than changing the weapon. Some feat, ZAFT have quiet a number of GuAIZ at the end of CE71, which are starting to replace GINN (I think they have replaced many commandders CGUE with GuAIZ, albeit far from complete), and they are also producing GuAIZ R after CE71. And the Zaku warrior (which is replacement of both GuAIZ and GINN) is starting being common at the middle of CE73).

The other feats are completing Neo-GENESIS, Minerva, and deploying Gondwana, and almost phasing out Laurasia class with Nazca class by CE 73. Even multiple Gundam production itself is a feat.

Nevertheless, in CE Universe, the production capability of each factions are actually awesome, event too awesome to be believed.... Look at Orb, they are in process replacing Astray (Produced CE 71) by Murasame in CE73 and availability of Takemikazuchi. And the EA's mobile Armor and replacement/complement of Strike Dagger with Windam. Albeit most EA ships are more like upgrade, they have those crazy Destroy, Nibelung, and Requiem.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by VhenRa » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:23 am

As for fuel... it is likely they are using some sort of electric + fuel power source.

Power goes in... excites the reaction mass which is then ejected out the back creating thrust.

More power = more thrust per amount of reaction mass.

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Re: Beam Weapons for Early CE Machines

Post by Izayuukan » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:48 am

I seem to vaguely recall that rocket engines each produce an impulse (which can be measured in speed of exhaust) unique to that engine. But I really don't know much about it.

My point is, maybe putting in more power doesn't directly mean a proportionate increase in thrust? I'd be happy if someone could correct me on that, assuming I'm wrong. Which I probably am.

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