Galbaldy and Gelgoog

[toysdream]

Here's a nifty little bit of trivia, and a couple of related observations.

So yesterday, I happened to be leafing through "Yutaka Izubuchi Mechanical Design Works I," the first volume of an art book series devoted to the mecha designer of Gundam 0080 and Char's Counterattack. (Not to mention his involvement in the mecha design of Gundam ZZ, a behind-the-scenes drama that may be more interesting than the plot of the show itself.) The book includes a bunch of rough drafts and design notes, including some observations from Izubuchi himself. Regarding the Gelgoog Jaeger from Gundam 0080, Izubuchi admits that he's not that fond of the original Gelgoog design and so he reworked it pretty extensively, and he notes that the end result looks a lot like the Galbaldy.

And you know what? It really does, right down to the color scheme:

Gelgoog Jaeger
Galbaldy Beta

Aside from the colors and proportions, I think the resemblance is especially strong in the torso and head. This isn't the only case where Izubuchi tried to bridge the gap between First Gundam and Zeta, either; the chest of the Zaku FZ is apparently meant to evoke the Hizack.

Something else occurs to me here. It's sometimes been said that the Galbaldy, although based on the Gyan, incorporates elements of the Gelgoog and can be produced on the same production lines. This always seemed like a bit of stretch to me, since the classic Gelgoog and the Galbaldy Alpha don't resemble each other very much (the hybridized Zeonography action figure notwithstanding). But the Gelgoog Jaeger is supposedly a product of the United Maintenance Plan, in which the major Zeon mobile suits were redesigned to share as many common parts as possible. Could the Galbaldy Beta be the result of a similar redesign, in which the oddball Galbaldy Alpha was reworked to share parts with its Gelgoog equivalent?

In this case, the Gelgoog Jaeger and Galbaldy Beta would essentially be siblings, designed so that they can both be rolled off the same assembly line. That would certainly explain why they look so much like each other, and so little like their ancestors.

-- Mark

P.S. I should note that there's some confusion about the Galbaldy Beta. The version we see in Zeta Gundam has been modified by the Federation Forces, but the Galbaldy Beta itself was developed by Zeon during the One Year War, and the upgraded version used by Neo Zeon in Gundam ZZ (the AMX-117 Gaz R and Gaz L) looks almost identical to its Federation cousin.

[Gelgoog Jager]

My first question would be: is there an image of what does the Zeon made Galbaldy Beta originally looked like? Mahq's profile on the Galbaldy only points out that it was revised and had it's armor trimmed down.

The main diference between a Galbaldy and most Zeon MS is it's titanium armor, which is from the same material that the original GM was made of. Although the arms are more rectangular, we do have examples blocky Zeon MS, such as the MS-09F/trop and the arms of the regular Gelgoogs. Considering this, I wouldn't be surprised if the Galbaldy Beta turned out to be almost (if not 100%) identical to the RMS-117, especially considering that, as Mark pointed out, Axis AMX-117L and AMX-117R look quite similiar to the Federation's version of the Galbaldy Beta. I always found odd that the Gazus resembled the Galbaldy Beta so much, even though there's no Galbaldy Beta ever shown among their ranks (we see many Hi-zacks and Marasais, and the lack of Barzams could be explained by it's limited production as indicated in it's profile), which might as well be due to them mainly belonging to Luna II's Federation MS forces.

I like the idea that this "MS-17B" would also have belonged to the UMP (United Maintenance Plan). Given that the MS-14Jg is rolled out almost at the same time as the regular MS-14A, it sounds feasible that the MS-17B was being designed at the same time as the regular MS-17.

Speaking of the UMP, is the Gyan Krieger from Gihren's Greed also supposed to be part of the plan, had the Gyan replaced the Gelgoog as next mainstay MS? The Gelgoog Marine from 0083 is definitely a close relative of the MS-14Jg, although AFAIK, there's no mention of it also being developed as part of this plan, plus it's using regular Super Hard Steel Alloy, unlike the MS from the UMP which use titanium ceramic composite (maybe the trim down of the Galbaldy's armor consisted on replacing titanium ceramic composite with regular titanium alloy).

Regarding the color scheme, while the units in 0080 use that color scheme, MS era does have one pic that seems to indicate that there were also MS-14Jg units painted in the regular Gelgoog colors:

Gelgoog Jäger (normal colors)

[JEFFPIATT]

The only thing i would like to point out is that the people who put out ms era intended for the j type to be the same as the normal gelgoog the one we see is ment to be an s type before the model kit team declared it a super high end commander model. I actually believe that the one shown in the picture inspired the 0083 team to come up with the M type to explain the one in the picture after all both models look very much alike. I do beleve the Galbaldy as an attempt to combine the best tech used by zeons competing manufactures in order to build a single ms. after all the EFF got the GM built the same way jeeps were built during ww2 the first jeep was a combined effort between Wileys, Ford, and Bantam.

[toysdream]

My first question would be: is there an image of what does the Zeon made Galbaldy Beta originally looked like? Mahq's profile on the Galbaldy only points out that it was revised and had it's armor trimmed down.

Nope, not as far as I know. But the Gaz R/L pretty much confirms it looked like the Federation version. If Izubuchi intended the Gelgoog Jaeger to be a "missing link" between the Gelgoog and the Zeon-made Galbaldy Beta, it would appear they didn't even change the color scheme.

I like the idea that this "MS-17B" would also have belonged to the UMP (United Maintenance Plan). Given that the MS-14Jg is rolled out almost at the same time as the regular MS-14A, it sounds feasible that the MS-17B was being designed at the same time as the regular MS-17.

There isn't a lot of published info about the Galbaldy Alpha, and virtually nothing new since the release of Gundam 0080 and the idea of the "United Maintenance Plan." But the Galbaldy Alpha profile in Yuka Minakawa's Encyclopedia of Gundam says that "Influenced by the United Maintenance Plan, it was made possible for it to be produced on Gelgoog manufacturing lines, and their parts were made compatible." Minakawa is talking about the Alpha version here, not the Beta, but this does support the idea that the Galbaldy's compatibility with the Gelgoog is related to the UMP.

Speaking of the UMP, is the Gyan Krieger from Gihren's Greed also supposed to be part of the plan, had the Gyan replaced the Gelgoog as next mainstay MS?

Exactly. In fact, you can't develop it in the game until you've implemented the UMP.

The Gelgoog Marine from 0083 is definitely a close relative of the MS-14Jg, although AFAIK, there's no mention of it also being developed as part of this plan, plus it's using regular Super Hard Steel Alloy, unlike the MS from the UMP which use titanium ceramic composite (maybe the trim down of the Galbaldy's armor consisted on replacing titanium ceramic composite with regular titanium alloy).

I wouldn't read too much into the armor materials - this info wasn't part of the original specs for the 0080 and 0083 mobile suits, so it's all retconned by third-party publications. The only One Year War-era mobile suits whose armor materials were actually listed in the specs were the GM II, Galbaldy Beta, and the handful of vintage machines that appear in ZZ.

That said, the HG-UC Gelgoog Marine kit manuals say that this machine was produced just before the implementation of the United Maintenance Plan. So perhaps the Marine served as a design base for the Jaeger?

Regarding the color scheme, while the units in 0080 use that color scheme, MS era does have one pic that seems to indicate that there were also MS-14Jg units painted in the regular Gelgoog colors:

Yes, but this is MS ERA we're talking about, where the 0080 versions are substituted for all the classic machines. We see at least two, and maybe three, Gelgoog Jaegers in the second episode of 0080, and they all have the same color scheme.

The only thing i would like to point out is that the people who put out ms era intended for the j type to be the same as the normal gelgoog the one we see is ment to be an s type before the model kit team declared it a super high end commander model.

MS ERA uses the 0080 designs in place of the regular versions, but by the time the Gundam 0080 anime came out, it was already well established that these were distinct variations. In other words, this wasn't just a retcon by the folks who put out the model kits.

If anything, the Gelgoog Jaeger - with its booster backpack - would be equivalent to the MS-14B Gelgoog High Mobility Type. I always used to wonder if its color scheme was meant to evoke Johnny Ridden, but now that I know the mecha designer was thinking of the Galbaldy Beta, that pretty much explains it.

-- Mark

[JEFFPIATT]

when i first saw it i actually thought of char it has a distinct color scheme that looks like his. never saw the closeness it had to the beta.

[Zeonista]

If you are willing to go with the principle that form follows function, the Gelgoog Jager and Galbaldy Beta should have a close appearance. Both MS types are speedy "hi-mobility" types designed to gun 'n run, or suddenly close to an in-your-face blast. So, there would be a certain resemblance. Now if you wanted to go out on a hypothetical limb, the Jager's similarity to the Galbaldy B might be the result of engineering cross-pollination between Zeonic and Zimmad. Since the Galbaldy Beta post-dates the One Year War, it could be possible that Zimmad was using advanced model Gelgoog data for their Galbaldy upgrade. As Stardust Memory pointed out, it's not so much the MS frame itself, as the data input into the MS computer to make the frame perform the way it does. Slimming and re-styling the Galbaldy frame to act (and coincidentally look) like a late-model Gelgoog would make for better performance, if not being exactly original. However, I am not sure if even hardcore UC fans are ready for an inside look at the inside machinations of MS manufacturers.

[J-Lead]

Since we're on the topic, the ReGelg also features similar colors. It seems light and dark red became a recurring paint scheme in the Gelgoog family after the Gelgoog Jager, custom suits be damned...

[JEFFPIATT]

The only issue with that is the model we see is an EFSF revision of The zeon model witch seems to make the galbaldy look closer to a gelgoog than the alpha witch has a more gyan look to it. but with the Gazu units seem to adopt a similar style but we don't know when those models came out. http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc ... baldy.html Gundam official seems to imply the model was purely an Federation concept that was refined from zeon work on the alpha model. i always assumed that axis received the blueprints from spies at AE and Side 3 who may have had access to these units and built similar models for there own use after all they are using the panoramic cockpits when they get there instead of the early models using the 3 screen model. oddly Gazu uses the same model number being the amx-117 to the eff use rms-117. I would not be at at all surprised if the axis models were orignaly betas before being modified in to the strangest looking guard units. my other question is was there a chance that the beta was meant to be an export model for the republic of zeon as the hi-zack seemed to be. the eff would want to keep the allied zeon current enough to keep rebels down without the new models being a threat to themselves.

[Zeonista]

The Zeon tendency to show certain MS in Red, Red, and Red is just keepin up with the old Char Aznable principle of Brightly Colored Badass. Want to convey at a glimpse that the pilot of given MS is not to be trifled with? Paint it differently, preferably two-tone if possible. Even this shade will suffice, although if it is this shade you definitely have something to prove. Or you are a bishojou ace...we hope. I suppose painting the Galalbdy Beta types the same color as a certain Gelgoog Jaeger neatly retcons a tribute, sorta they way most Doms/Rick Doms were painted after the fashion of the original trio.

[toysdream]

Since the Galbaldy Beta post-dates the One Year War, it could be possible that Zimmad was using advanced model Gelgoog data for their Galbaldy upgrade.

Actually, the Zeon version of the Galbaldy Beta (the MS-17B) was supposedly developed during the One Year War. There's probably some wiggle room there, since it wasn't until January 0080 that the Federation captured the Pezun base and the Zeon remnants left for Axis (taking some Galbaldys with them). Is that enough time for Gelgoog Jaeger data to be used in the Galbaldy Beta? Well, maybe. And I guess that would support Izubuchi's idea of the Jaeger as a "missing link"...

Since we're on the topic, the ReGelg also features similar colors. It seems light and dark red became a recurring paint scheme in the Gelgoog family after the Gelgoog Jager, custom suits be damned...

The ReGelg's body color seems to be dark navy blue, not reddish-brown. (It actually looks like the same color scheme as Rommel's Dowadge Kai.) And meanwhile, Masai's vintage Gelgoog from the same series is in Char colors (minus command antenna). I guess those Zeons just love their red suits!


Meanwhile, it seems like we're getting to the point in the thread where we're going back over stuff that was already discussed. Like I mentioned in the first post, the Galbaldy Beta was originally developed by Zeon, and the Gaz R/L we see in Gundam ZZ were based on the Zeon version (whose exterior looks just like the Federation one). As for the color scheme, they're not based on "a certain Gelgoog Jaeger" because we see two or three different Jaegers in episode 2 of Gundam 0080, and they're all in that color scheme.

-- Mark

[Strike Zero]

Like I mentioned in the first post, the Galbaldy Beta was originally developed by Zeon, and the Gaz R/L we see in Gundam ZZ were based on the Zeon version (whose exterior looks just like the Federation one).

Huh. That's certainly quite a revision, as both the MAHQ profiles for the Galbaldy a and the Galbaldy β reference the Federation as being the ones who acquired the Galbaldy a's design then refurbished it into what we see as the Galbaldy β. I had always attributed its Zeonic-esque design to the combining of Zeon and Federation design principles like we see with that of the Hizack, but I suppose that it simply being a slightly-modified version of an actual Zeon design makes sense as well.

[JEFFPIATT]

The issue i see is that the axis units are mentioned to be based on the EFF model and share the model number just changeing the prefix to AMX and adding an L/R to the 117. If they are intended to be based on zeon's concept for it i would have expected them to use the ms-17 code rather than one based on the FED code. Bandai and the desginer may have diffrent ideas on the dev tree of uc ms. is there a current model kit manual scan for the ms.

[toysdream]

Huh. That's certainly quite a revision, as both the MAHQ profiles for the Galbaldy a and the Galbaldy β reference the Federation as being the ones who acquired the Galbaldy a's design then refurbished it into what we see as the Galbaldy β.

I'm afraid that, in this case, the MAHQ profiles are probably incorrect.

The earliest info on the Galbaldy Beta, published when Zeta Gundam was on the air in 1985, was a little ambiguous as to who was responsible for redesigning the Alpha into the Beta. But that ambiguity went away a year later when the Gaz R/L appeared in Gundam ZZ, and from then on the Japanese sources have generally (but not universally) said that the Galbaldy Beta was originally developed by the Zeon forces as the MS-17B. So the MAHQ profiles might be due for an update.

-- Mark

[T.V.]

In short, am I correct to assume that the Galbaldy β is much like the MS-11 Act Zaku when it comes to Federation involvement?
They liked it enough to produce it as is in limited quantities, not doing major redesign work on it.
Also, the idea that the Galbaldy β is a UMP-fied Galbaldy α is rather elegant considering the context.

As a side note, why the hell didn't the Federation used/produced the Gelgoog?!

[toysdream]

In short, am I correct to assume that the Galbaldy β is much like the MS-11 Act Zaku when it comes to Federation involvement?
They liked it enough to produce it as is in limited quantities, not doing major redesign work on it.

I guess the analogy falls down a little given that the Galbaldy Beta actually received a new model number. Judging from the other updated Zeon machines, it seems like replacing the generator and cockpit aren't enough to get a new model number; it's usually said that the Galbaldy Beta has other internal changes, such as new thrusters and armor materials, so perhaps they changed it just enough to push it over the edge.

As a side note, why the hell didn't the Federation used/produced the Gelgoog?!

In theory, the Galbaldy Beta should be superior to the Gelgoog, so there'd be no point in producing its obsolete ancestor.

The MS development history in Zeta Gundam Part 3 suggests another possible reason:

Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is." Thus minor changes were made to create patchwork versions of Federation and Zeon mobile suits. The GM II and Hizack are good examples of this. In other cases, prototype Zeon mobile suits which had never been introduced in combat were modified and then mass produced using the facilities which had already been prepared for that purpose.

In other words, the Federation avoided using machines that the Zeons had actually "introduced in combat," perhaps because they'd taken Federation lives.

-- Mark

[SOCL]

The MS development history in Zeta Gundam Part 3 suggests another possible reason:

Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is." Thus minor changes were made to create patchwork versions of Federation and Zeon mobile suits. The GM II and Hizack are good examples of this. In other cases, prototype Zeon mobile suits which had never been introduced in combat were modified and then mass produced using the facilities which had already been prepared for that purpose.

In other words, the Federation avoided using machines that the Zeons had actually "introduced in combat," perhaps because they'd taken Federation lives.

This is similar to why the U.S. Army uses a Colt-made firearms as their primary battle rifles (i.e. M16, M4) and not foreign firearms, and in particular the venerable AK-family: it rings too much of the "other" or "bad guy" weapon.[/side comment]

[T.V.]

I guess the analogy falls down a little given that the Galbaldy Beta actually received a new model number.

My first thought is: That's just down to politics.
Giving an existing piece of machinery a 'new' modelnumber to reflect it's 'new' origin/status is common practice, even in Gundam. *cough* Zudah *cough*

That's seems especially fitting given what you say here:

In other words, the Federation avoided using machines that the Zeons had actually "introduced in combat," perhaps because they'd taken Federation lives.

Making the Galbaldy seem like a Federation/Titans original just by giving it a new non-Zeon modelnumber smells like political correctness on a budget.

In that regard the development/adoption of the Hizack is difficult to swallow, given it's flagrant similarities with the well known Zaku II, but that's another topic.

About the Gelgoog though, I was thinking about the pre-Zeta period actually. Being adopted before the Hizack and Galbaldy β were introduced/built/developed, but your last answer covers that sofar as it goes.

Though even if the Galbaldy β is superior to the baseline Gelgoog, I'm now wondering what prevented the Titans from looking into developing a 'RMS-114 HiGelg' or something like that, considering they found the Hizack perfectly acceptable.

[J-Lead]

Though even if the Galbaldy β is superior to the baseline Gelgoog, I'm now wondering what prevented the Titans from looking into developing a 'RMS-114 HiGelg' or something like that, considering they found the Hizack perfectly acceptable.

Well, given the numbers of the Federal Forces, I assume the Hizack's adoption has a lot more to do with the ease of logistics, maintenance, and their accessibility than their performance. Hizacks were adopted because the mobile suit it was based on was plenty cheap to build and maintain and fairly simple to operate, so they were accessible to new pilots. Gelgoogs, on the other hand, were very expensive, and I think that their performance in the hands of wet-behind-the-ears rookies during the last days of the OYW served as a very credible sample regarding their accessibility to newbies. The Federal Forces' biggest strength is their sheer numbers, and the Hizack is basically tailor-made to serve in the standard forces as a cheaply manufactured, easily maintained machine, which is why the Federation found them so appealing.

[Black Knight]

The Federal Forces' biggest strength is their sheer numbers, and the Hizack is basically tailor-made to serve in the standard forces as a cheaply manufactured, easily maintained machine, which is why the Federation found them so appealing.

While I agree that the Hizack is probably intended to be an inexpensive, mechanic-friendly machine, the idea that the Federation's biggest strength being mass numbers of mobile suits amuses the hell out of me given that with the Gelgoog alone Zeon has about half the numbers of the entire GM production.

If Zeon can't out-produce the paltry ~600 or so MS the Federation was able to build by the end of the war, no wonder they lost, despite the massive MS casualties we see the Federation taking.

I think its a lot more appropriate to say that the Federation's greatest strength was its (learning) computers and mobile suit & warship weapons technology, which consistently outperformed those of Zeon.

I find the idea that the Federation only built new copies of Zeon MS which weren't used in battle intriguing. It explains why the Federation built at least as many Gouf-Hs as they captured, why they're still using Zaku Marines, and why they didn't rename the Galbaldy upon upgrading it to the Galbaldy Gamma. In fact, the only MS I can think of which was used against the Federation which the Federation later built more of and/or gave significant upgrades is the Zaku Cannon. But maybe the pathetic showing of those machines at California Base and on the fighting retreat from that base meant that there was no political backlash from trying to adopt it. Though you'd think that same lack of achievement would be a good reason for the Federation to not build more Zaku Cannons and adapt them for space combat...

[JEFFPIATT]

The eff also uses zaku recon types and builds an hizack upgrade to the line. it seems to be more of an they were not common units or ones they built from parts to eval the combat use of the model for use as hi-zack modification parts. we see in aoz the cannon model of the hi-zack being tested so my quess would be that the zeon ms we see at jabaro are being used to collect combat data for the hi-zack series before being used as decoys. we do see that the m was actually produced on the hizack frame and at least the remaining recons are being used by the eff. the one in the animation seems to been rebuilt with hizack parts seeing that it can mount the shield and has the modern cockpit.