Are Bullpups the gun of the future?

[Strike_Rouge_Mk2]

I was just wondering because in many video games guns with Bullpup configuration are common place in the futuristic setting, and I was thinking of some of the advantages of Bullpup in general (Shorter overall length, accuracy, power etc.) And I was thinking, "Why not?"

I am not a real gun enthusiast, but I've told you guys before how I play air soft and I started to wonder this after realizing I'm the only guy with a Bullpup on the field. >.>"

Correct me on any mistakes I made. (Mainly the part about accuracy Power etc.)

Some example I can think of off the top of my head are Code Geass, Some Gundam series (I think), Halo, and MAG. I had more, but I can't seem to remember then now of all times x.x

[azrael]

Google "Bullpup vs. conventional" and you'll find lots of conversations on it.

Bullpups are futuristic-looking but there are some disadvantages. New users find it hard to reload. Left-handers can't use it. Bayonet ranges are shortened. etc. etc. etc. But many bullpups have solved these problems. With time, users can swap magazines just as fast as users of conventional rifles. FN solved the problem of left-handers by changing how casings are ejected. And bayonet-charges are rare occurrence. That just leaves balance. But I hear the Russian "Groza" OC-14/OTs-14 adjusted for that issue.
In the end, it really comes down to how well the weapon is designed. Kalashnikov still makes rifles based on the AK-47 because the design has withstood the test of time. The H&K G36 and its descendants (XM8, 416/417), the FN SCAR all are very well made conventionally configured rifles.

Accuracy is more dependent on barrel length. The more the bullet spins in the barrel, the straighter its path. But keep in mind power. Obviously a bullet with less force behind it will not travel as far as a bullet with lots of force behind it.

[blind_dead_mcjones]

i find the notion of them looking futuristic amusing as the the actual idea behind the design is 30+ years old but no matter

i guess from the idea of neat, streamlined and tidy yes they do look futuristic, and there is the advantage of having a rifle length barrel in a carbine length weapon, (plus i hear that the firing mechanism being where it is also reduces recoil.)

at the end of the day it's down to asthetics when it comes to a 'futuristic looking weapon'

[Red Zaku]

Left-handers can't use it.

That's not true. Most Bullpup's can actually be easily reconfigured for left handed shooters.

The left handed person was also kept in mind, as the AUG can easily be adapted in seconds for left handed users with the installation of a left hand bolt assembly.
http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/specs/family.htm

FN solved the problem of left-handers by changing how casings are ejected.

Yeah just wanted to say like I pointed out above all Bullpup's can be configured for a lefty to shoot, some more easily then others.

And bayonet-charges are rare occurrence. That just leaves balance. But I hear the Russian "Groza" OC-14/OTs-14 adjusted for that issue.

x.x Aside from the British L-85 pretty much all Bullpups are designed so that the balancing point is actually the rifle's grip. Though later models of the L85 have been corrected slightly. As far as Bullpup's go there isn't really much of an argument agaisnt them the Isreali Tavor is actually as accurate as the M-16 ,a nd can hit targets at the same distance despite being noticably smaller which makes it muchb etter for Close Quarters. What keeps the Bullpup from beign adopted are really far less complex.

The Bullpup isn't adopted because it's magazine design is uncommon and takes serious getting used to for most soldiers on the field, and the US military doesn't want to spend money re-training Soldiers. Also if you adopt a Bullpup, your armories will have to be completely overhauled which makes changing the standard infinitry rifle completely far more expensive then what the US military settled for.

[azrael]

That's not true. Most Bullpup's can actually be easily reconfigured for left handed shooters.

Yeah just wanted to say like I pointed out above all Bullpup's can be configured for a lefty to shoot, some more easily then others.

Not the SA-80/L-85 or the QBZ-95. While most can be reconfigured, not all can.

[Gadget]

The barrel length of most bullpups and conventional guns are the same. It looks shorter because the round is chambered further back. The shorter overall length is an advantage in FIBUA (Fighting In Built Up Area) or in jungle warfare.

And not all bullpups are futuristic. For example, the M41A Pulse Rifle that the Colonial Marians uses in Aliens is actually the ol' M1A1 Thompson, with parts from Franchi SPAS-12 shot gun. And the grande luncher is Remington M870 shotgun. And the slap on a LED counter. What I read that the MP5 did not produce enough muzzle flash. So the props people uses the Thompson.

[azrael]

And not all bullpups are futuristic. For example, the M41A Pulse Rifle that the Colonial Marians uses in Aliens is actually the ol' M1A1 Thompson, with parts from Franchi SPAS-12 shot gun. And the grande luncher is Remington M870 shotgun. And the slap on a LED counter. What I read that the MP5 did not produce enough muzzle flash. So the props people uses the Thompson.

The M41 was a considered a bullpup? Really? I don't recall reading that in the Aliens Marines Technical Guide.

[DeltasTaii]

You still can't fire most of them ambidextrously, which is an issue in CQB. You can lefty a corner with a right handed M4, doing so with a right handed AUG there's rather hot brass being shot in your face, which makes it more difficult to minimize exposure. The downward ejection solves that problem, but presents a significant issue for prone firing. Similarly while it's possible to train infantry to reload a bullpup quickly, it has some unavoidable issues while prone in regard to profile size and holding the weapon on target. This is a part of why you'll see Special Forces using M4A1s and upgrading to the conventional layout SCAR instead of any bullpup still, although the SOPMOD package is a big part as well.

Now, "modern" combat has a lot of cramped quarters, vehicle riding and so forth where a shorter weapon like the M4 is preferred to the M16 and the obvious and constant advantages are usually considered to outweigh the relatively irrelevant and inconsistent disadvantages of a bullpup as a standard forces weapon (pretty much every country that has had a chance to properly introduce an all new issue rifle since the mid-60s has opted for one). Typical sci-fi settings shift even further in this direction with advanced combat vehicles, drop ships, armor and technology that reduces the effectiveness or importance of long range infantry engagements, and so forth.

Pretty much every bullpup assault rifle on Earth but the QBZ-95 (and there's a QBZ-97 for that) accepts the same STANAG 4179 magazines as the M16, M4, G36, C7, C8, SCAR-L, FNC, etc...

[blind_dead_mcjones]

And not all bullpups are futuristic. For example, the M41A Pulse Rifle that the Colonial Marians uses in Aliens is actually the ol' M1A1 Thompson, with parts from Franchi SPAS-12 shot gun. And the grande luncher is Remington M870 shotgun. And the slap on a LED counter. What I read that the MP5 did not produce enough muzzle flash. So the props people uses the Thompson.

The M41 was a considered a bullpup? Really? I don't recall reading that in the Aliens Marines Technical Guide.

but the magazine of pulse rifle is in front of the handle, and the key point of the bullpup design is that the magazine and firing mechanism are behind the handle *scratches head*

also gadget bear in mind that the prop they used in aliens also had a lot of stylised plastic on it to conceal the fact that it was a tommy gun

Now, "modern" combat has a lot of cramped quarters, vehicle riding and so forth where a shorter weapon like the M4 is preferred to the M16 and the obvious and constant advantages are usually considered to outweigh the relatively irrelevant and inconsistent disadvantages of a bullpup as a standard forces weapon (pretty much every country that has had a chance to properly introduce an all new issue rifle since the mid-60s has opted for one)..

not entirely true, from what i've seen, various countries are phasing out the M16/M4 line in favour of bullpups, this is especially prevallent throughout south east asia, australiasia, oceania and various countries in the mediterranean are either working on designing their own bullpup rifle, or licence bulding an existing design (australia for example replaced all of its FALs and M16s with licence built AUGs, considering the ADF has a long history of being riflemen it speaks volumnes for to that particular design, and then there's the israeli millitary who developed the Tavor 21 which is in turn going to eventualy replace their stocks of conventional rifles and carbines)

[Geoxile]

Bullpups regardless of whether or not you're used to a conventional design, are often awkward to reload, so it can take some time to get used to. As for phasing out the M4...that's mostly because the TAR-21 is currently the new big shot. Let's face it, the M4 is getting old and the USMC and US Army are getting new guns as well, you can't rely on the same design forever, even the M-16 is starting to phase out. The Tavor's length is actually only 4 or so inches shorter than the fully extended M4. The new HK416 standard is only 3 inches longer; both the 416 and the Scar-Light show pretty good results in fire testing. If bullpups were guns of the future there certainly would be a lot more of them IMO, right now it seems the "conventional" assault rifle is still at a high

[DeltasTaii]

Let's just factually take a look at that statement:

United States: M16A4, M4A1, Special Forces: Mk.16 Mod 0, HK416
United Kingdom: L85A2, Special Forces: M4A1
Canada: C7A2, C8A1 (basically M16 and M4)
France: FAMAS F2, Special Forces: HK416
Germany: G36, Special Forces: HK416
Austria: AUG A2
Australia: F88 Austeyr (basically AUG)
Russia: AK-74M, AKS-74, Limited Use: AKM, AN-94, AK-103, AK-105
Italy: Beretta AR70/90
Israel: M16A2, M4A1, TAR-21
Japan: Type 89
Belgium: FNC, FN2000
China: Type 81, QBZ-95
Norway: C7A1, HK416
Turkey: Mehmetçik-1 (basically HK416 again)
Poland: AKM, Tantal (AK-74 variant), Kbs wz. 1996 Beryl (sort of a 5.56 AK variation)
Taiwan: T86, T91 (also based on the M16)

Germany would be using a caseless bullpup, which is far more futuristic were it not for circumstances. Aside from AK and AR-15 variants, the countries with the more developed military technology tend to lean towards bullpup assault rifles. A lot of the countries with newer conventional rifles aren't very aggressive about upgrading anyways, having hung on to 7.62mm battle rifles like the G3/CETME for ages.

[Areku]

United States: M16A4, M4A1, Special Forces: Mk.16 Mod 0, HK416
United Kingdom: L85A2, Special Forces: M4A1
Canada: C7A2, C8A1 (basically M16 and M4)
France: FAMAS F2, Special Forces: HK416
Germany: G36, Special Forces: HK416
Austria: AUG A2
Australia: F88 Austeyr (basically AUG)
Russia: AK-74M, AKS-74, Limited Use: AKM, AN-94, AK-103, AK-105
Italy: Beretta AR70/90
Israel: M16A2, M4A1, TAR-21
Japan: Type 89
Belgium: FNC, FN2000
China: Type 81, QBZ-95
Norway: C7A1, HK416
Turkey: Mehmetçik-1 (basically HK416 again)
Poland: AKM, Tantal (AK-74 variant), Kbs wz. 1996 Beryl (sort of a 5.56 AK variation)
Taiwan: T86, T91 (also based on the M16)

Though technically a PDW instead of a rifle, it seems to me that omitting the FN P90 would be criminal.

[Geoxile]

Last time I checked France was trying to phase the 416 into trial service for certain Airservice commando groups, replacing their FAMAS.

As for the rest? Umm...militarily advanced? I see...Israel...

China's rifle? I'd personally say it's outclassed slightly by the Taiwanese Type 91

Korea, another Asian country, while not having overwhelming military power is definitely one of the more advanced powers, uses a new conventional rifle that isn't just another M16 redesign. Most European nations still use conventional rifles most of which are still respected weapons.

I'll be honest, I have heard good things about the AUG A3 but the priority still seems to be the conventional type, many of which the new ones are still being put into trial use.

You'll also have to remember that the U.S. military budget is more than Israel, UK, and Chinese budgets put together by far.

[mcred23]

A quick off-topic bit...

The M41 was a considered a bullpup? Really? I don't recall reading that in the Aliens Marines Technical Guide.

but the magazine of pulse rifle is in front of the handle, and the key point of the bullpup design is that the magazine and firing mechanism are behind the handle *scratches head*

also gadget bear in mind that the prop they used in aliens also had a lot of stylised plastic on it to conceal the fact that it was a tommy gun

No, the M41A is not a bullpup design, as the clip is clearly foward of the trigger. What Gadget was trying to say is that, while bullpup designs are very common among futurisitc works (Halo, various Gundam shows have bullpup designs for standard small arms and for MS weapons, among many others), some works still use more standard designs.

[Geoxile]

Jegan beam rifles look like conventional carbines! They've moved away from bullpups, therefore conventional beam rifles are the new future.

[azrael]

Jegan beam rifles look like conventional carbines! They've moved away from bullpups, therefore conventional beam rifles are the new future.

I don't think we can even classify directed energy weapons as conventional or bullpup.

I see the tendency toward bullpups because, as others have said, close-quarter combat is becoming more and more common place than battles across vast fields. So there's a tendency to go with smaller weapons. Carbines fit this role due to their size. But you sacrifice barrel length with carbines so there's a shift to the "how about bullpups"-question. Size of a carbine with the barrel length of a conventional rifle.

[Gadget]

And not all bullpups are futuristic. For example, the M41A Pulse Rifle that the Colonial Marians uses in Aliens is actually the ol' M1A1 Thompson, with parts from Franchi SPAS-12 shot gun. And the grande luncher is Remington M870 shotgun. And the slap on a LED counter. What I read that the MP5 did not produce enough muzzle flash. So the props people uses the Thompson.

The M41 was a considered a bullpup? Really? I don't recall reading that in the Aliens Marines Technical Guide.

(Slap face)

I am so goof up. What I tried to say was 'Not all bullpups can be made to look futuristic. Some conventional rifles can be made to look futuristic'

Singapore army already phasing out the M16A1 and replace it with the bullpup SAR 21.

Lieutenant Rei Fukai in Sentō Yōsei Yukikaze uses the FN P90. It not only a bullpup, but it has a unique way of lading the magerzine.

The problem with a a futuristic designe is that if all assult rifle that uses a bullpup design, than conventional design would be the 'in' thing for the future. The bullpup configeration would have lost it's novelty

BTY, in Cowboy Bebob, I find it strange that they are still using weapons from the 20th centuary, like the Jericho 941, Walther P99, Glock 30 and the HK MP5K. What happen to the beam weapons?

[DeltasTaii]

Okay, for further ****s and giggles, let's take all those AR-15 and AK variants out of the list.

United States: Mk.16 Mod 0
United Kingdom: L85A2
France: FAMAS F2
Germany: G36
Austria: AUG A2
Australia: F88 Austeyr (basically AUG)
Italy: Beretta AR70/90
Israel: TAR-21
Japan: Type 89
Belgium: FNC, FN2000
China: Type 81, QBZ-95
South Korea: K2

On that list the SCAR-L and Type 81 are still designed to use the same operation and ergonomics as an AK for training and familiarity reasons. The sheer popularity of those two weapons platforms is enough to outweigh any other technical or design priorities-it's like judging the state of late UC0080s mobile suit development on GMs and Zakus. When you run into these countries replacing their rifles with HK416s you see an issue where there isn't sufficient funding for their own rifle improvement programs so they just buy the highest regarded, versatile AR-15/18 model around off the rack (I wouldn't be surprised if Britain finally gets fed up with the L85 and does this or buys G36s soon, the A2s from HK aren't super cheap either). The fact South Korea is replacing M16A1s tells you that's another country that's very conservative about new weapons.

That isn't to say bullpups are the answer to everything nor will they be completely replacing conventional rifles, well, ever, but they're definitely the more ambitious option.

The main definition of a futuristic looking gun seems to be that it has a ton of bulky casing and covering covering everything up. The nature of bullpups is that they usually have a bulky and often integrated stock/magazine area to start with and with the magazine in the back it's relatively hidden, so just grabbing an AUG moreorless does the job instead of taking a G3 or AR-15 and throwing a load of crap on it.

[azrael]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Morita from Starship Troopers.

[Geoxile]

Bullpups are pretty restrictive when it comes to actual stocks, probably because the bulk of the mechanisms are towards the stock. In any case, bullpups may seem futuristic but I strongly disbelieve they are the future of guns, or guns of the future.