just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

[santadi0]

Hmmm, how come the Gundam franchise never ventured on plasma technology, or humanity having many other colony planets (thus "extraplanetary" wars), or even having a superweapon (they always had this concept) that's shaped like a ring..?
I know, this sounds like Halo.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

Out-of-universe... Plasma technology would require the writing staff to brush up on plasma, plasma dynamics, plasma physics, what have you, and learn what they can and can't do with it. On the other hand, inventing some futuristic pseudo-science like Minovsky Physics or GN Physics lets them do whatever they like because the technology does whatever the story needs it to. In-universe... plasma technology regularly gets superceded by more advanced, and more flexible, technologies such as Minovsky Physics or GN Physics

Beyond references in Turn-A, Gundam has never gone extra-solar because the tech level we see in-series has never been advanced enough: no faster-than-light propulsion or communications to allow for conflict over such massive distances. Out-of-universe, it's to keep Gundam just about on that "twenty minutes into the future" level of sci-fi that shows a world advanced enough to build giant robots, but otherwise more or less like the world we live in.

As for ring-shaped superweapons, there's never been any practical need for something along those lines: since beam weapons tend to be fairly gun-like in shape and usage, the "giant cannon" shape has worked out pretty well. I suppose GENESIS is shaped like a giant dish, if that counts?

[Kuruni]

For plasma, I'm more surprise that you ignore Freedom's Balaena plasma cannon. How Flag and Enact's sonic blade can double as plasma sword. And Agrissa's palsma field, even older model that appear in 00P has it. And IIRC, UC beam saber is also more or less palsma-based using I-field to contain it.

For ring-like super weapon, why bother with a ring when you can has several rings AKA Angel Halo? Actually, why we would bother to has ring-like super weapon to start? I guess you have something like Destroy Gundam MA mode in mind, but why left middle section hollow?

[MrMarch]

Regarding DEWs, I doubt there's functionally any difference between a Beam Rifle and a Plasma Rifle in the context of Gundam (field vs. beam interactions aside). One could call any DEW by any name and it would still serve the same function as any futuristic energy gun for all intents and purposes. One would have to develop detailed reasons for one energy weapon to function differently than another if there were to be any effective distinction between them. Otherwise, the only difference between one DEW and another is just the name. Anime in particular has a bad habit of labeling all these various weapons by different names when the effectively all perform the same function in the animation itself. Rarely is there any practical distinction.

Regarding the setting, Gundam has mostly been a show with themes of internal conflict rather than external conflict. So there's little reason to venture outside the solar system when a single solar system can amply serve as a near-future theatre for a Gundam story. Not saying Gundam couldn't have a multi-system civil conflict, just that there seems little to gain in doing so.

[Seraphic]

By DEW, I think MrMarch means 'directed energy weapon'. I try not to throw the acronyms around too much unless I spell out the term once or twice. ^_^;

Oh, and Minovsky particles are technically a plasma, I think. No plasma tech in Gundam? What are you talking about?? It's definitely ionized, since there are positive and negative particles, and I suppose it's in a gaslike state, and it's manipulated all the time by electromagnetic fields. It's just that Minovsky particles have a few special properties on top of those other things.

What's this need for a ring weapon all the sudden?

[santadi0]

hmm... ok. so Gundam does have some plasma tech. About the ring weapon, you can have two means of "inflicting damage":
A. Fire a "beam" or "energy pulse" to Earth, killing the population.
B. crash the thing at Earth, killing the population.

[blind_dead_mcjones]

to which it must be asked, how does it being ring shaped help its function in either of those two aspects?

as for other planets, gundam SEED astray went to mars i think, and Crossbone Gundam plays out around jupiter, what more do you want?

[Black Knight]

Halo's rings were simply a miniature version of Larry Niven's Ringworld, and seem to have been made smaller so the staff wouldn't have to include the land area of several million earth-equivalents into their game. And, frankly, the Halo rings would be even less gravitationally stable than the original ringworld, which had a radius equal to the distance of the Earth from the sun.

The act of constructing even a Halo-sized ring would be an overly complex evolution, anyway; you're better off with a less fantastic and more practical space station to mount your preferred superweapon.

[Geoxile]

I think even theorized plasma would how lesser yields of energy than say a minovsky charged beam cannon. I mean the beams in UC have no trouble piercing anything bar super armor or anti beam material.

As for planetary rings, apparently the new Ring of Gundam setting features circular rotating colonies around a major body of mass. Though superweapons? IMHO the ring worlds were always kinda stupid. Besides...wasn't the point of the halos to transport the energy? Not actually act as the actual weapon itself?

[Izayuukan]

On the other hand, inventing some futuristic pseudo-science like Minovsky Physics or GN Physics lets them do whatever they like because the technology does whatever the story needs it to. In-universe... plasma technology regularly gets superceded by more advanced, and more flexible, technologies such as Minovsky Physics or GN Physics

As far as I understand it, it was some fans who invented the physics behind much of the UC tech to explain what was happening on screen, and Sunrise just adopted it.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

As far as I understand it, it was some fans who invented the physics behind much of the UC tech to explain what was happening on screen, and Sunrise just adopted it.

That's somewhat sideways of my point, to be fair. Yes, Gundam fans with an understanding of physics far beyond myself have explained how what we see in animation works (as in Tanqexe's fantastic Theoretical GN physics and mechanics thread), but in essence that's after-the-fact justification of what these pseudo-sciences are seen to do. My point was simply that series creators like Tomino will create something like Minovsky Physics so that the series' giant robots can do what the writers want without troublesome things like real-world physics getting in the way.

Quite how they do this can wait until after the fact - or not at all - but all that concerns the writers and directors is that these futuristic-sounding scientific advances let them do things with giant robots that they couldn't do with strict adherence to science as we currently understand it.

[santadi0]

The thing is, even with Gundam's latest series (00), the plot never goes beyond Earth and the solar system. I've been reading some of the Halo novels, and humanity's frontiers are way stretched more than in Gundam. In the Halo universe, they have the so-called "Jump" technology wherein their ships can bend normal space and travel lightyears in a matter of hours. I'm not advocating for the franchise to have wars with alien empires, but then the wars we would have in Gundam would be at least, planet system to planet system. So imagine, say ZAFT having 15 planet colonies or something like that while the Earth Alliance has say 21 planet colonies. Then they go to war...
The bigger the war, the better the protagonist's mobile suit has to be, thus pressuring the guys in Sunrise to design better. Yay for us, I think..
It would be internal conflict, in a way. Humans vs. Humans, though not exclusive to Earth and its surroundings. I do see some problems regarding planetary systems. How would they be mapped...?

[Gadget]

It seems that this discussion is heading off topic.

My opinion is this. A better machine is beginning to sound more like a super robot.

The inter galactic plot would sound more like Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

And base on UC's pesudo science, the science have to sound 'logic'. Too much of future tech is no difference from magic An example is Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann. A mecha that can throw galaxy like shriken.

If one venture into outer space, why not venture into inner space, like the cyber world? Then we have 'Tron' or 'Reboot' like MS fighting for freedom and control in the cyber world.

[santadi0]

Not exactly a bad idea, but then Gundam was meant to have large mechs in the physical world. It could work...

[Red Comet90]

Technically interstellar warfare has already occurred and things that santid0 mentioned happen in Turn A Gundam. The Turn A has the ability to take down large cruisers and fights over long distance. Of course it needs its doc base, but still it doesn't travel far into the realm of super robot. Even its moonlight butterfly isn't really a super robot attack.

[Izayuukan]

Technically interstellar warfare has already occurred and things that santid0 mentioned happen in Turn A Gundam. The Turn A has the ability to take down large cruisers and fights over long distance. Of course it needs its doc base, but still it doesn't travel far into the realm of super robot. Even its moonlight butterfly isn't really a super robot attack.

Considering all of its abilities, I would have to disagree. Abilities such as teleportation, warping its attacks inside of its enemies, armed with a beam rifle as powerful as a colony beam cannon, onboard nano factories make its own missiles and ammo out of any material, have armour that is practically invulnerable to both physical and beam attacks, the ability to regenerate as the plot requires, and fire out and control nano machines in the range of hundreds of millions of kilometres; yeah, it sounds pretty Super Robot to me.



Note that with the regeneration ability, some damage is mysteriously more difficult to fix than others even though it can regenerate limbs. The example being the Turn X's strange inability to fix its distinctive scar.

[Momaru]

Regarding the setting, Gundam has mostly been a show with themes of internal conflict rather than external conflict. So there's little reason to venture outside the solar system when a single solar system can amply serve as a near-future theatre for a Gundam story. Not saying Gundam couldn't have a multi-system civil conflict, just that there seems little to gain in doing so.

You know, the opposite could easily be said for many of the Macross shows that have settings outside one solar system. These shows feature plenty of internal conflict so I don't see why not Gundam could do something similar. Not to mention various other sifi stories. Really as long as the choice is made to focus on the inner conflicts of a character, it doesn't matter what the overall setting is. Of course this is extremely difficult to do when you have at least 20 important characters running around ( so much so it gets hard to keep all of the characters straight) like in LoGH...

[Red Comet90]

Technically interstellar warfare has already occurred and things that santid0 mentioned happen in Turn A Gundam. The Turn A has the ability to take down large cruisers and fights over long distance. Of course it needs its doc base, but still it doesn't travel far into the realm of super robot. Even its moonlight butterfly isn't really a super robot attack.

Considering all of its abilities, I would have to disagree. Abilities such as teleportation, warping its attacks inside of its enemies, armed with a beam rifle as powerful as a colony beam cannon, onboard nano factories make its own missiles and ammo out of any material, have armour that is practically invulnerable to both physical and beam attacks, the ability to regenerate as the plot requires, and fire out and control nano machines in the range of hundreds of millions of kilometres; yeah, it sounds pretty Super Robot to me.



Note that with the regeneration ability, some damage is mysteriously more difficult to fix than others even though it can regenerate limbs. The example being the Turn X's strange inability to fix its distinctive scar.

Yes, but is it completely indestructible? No it isn't. Super Robots tend to be powered by will and other such things. The Turn X is grounded in technology that is part of the real robot genre. It is merely just using the same technology to a whole new level because it combines all of the best abilities of UC and AU.

Its abilities make it seem super but its grounded in real robot precedents. And plenty of other Gundam shows have the Gundams displaying Super Robot abilities. Do we ever see the Nu Gundam labeled as a Super Robot even though it pushes back Axis? Nope.

[Izayuukan]

I apologise in advance for going off topic.

Do we ever see the Nu Gundam labeled as a Super Robot even though it pushes back Axis? Nope. [/color]

Well, the Nu Gundam and Zeta Gundam ARE pretty Super Robot in specific instances, one of which you mentioned regarding the deflection of Axis. I'll never forgive Zeta (the show) for Zeta (the Gundam) going Super Saiyan at the end. What a-hole put Super Robot techniques and abilities (including channelling ghosts for crying out loud) in a supposed Real Robot show?

Frankly I think Newtype powers should never have been placed in Gundam, certainly not in the form they eventually took. It cheapens and undermines the franchise, supposedly lauded for its realism. I am similarly annoyed with Thunderbirds for having characters with psychic powers.

As Gadget alluded to, Arthur C. Clarke stated that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But that's only true in real life. In fiction, when you get such outlandish abilities cropping up - especially in a show that purports to be realistic or at least plausible - then there is a disconnect between the technological level of the show and the abilities that we see. It is then technology and magic/mysticism become separated.

My point is, the Turn A and Turn X are so advanced compared to previous Gundams that their abilities seem to be less about being realistic within the context of the show and more about throwing together a list of amazing abilities just to make the two Gundams "the best". I contend that they should be labelled Super Robots simply because they do not belong on the Real Robot category.

[Dark Duel]

What a-hole put Super Robot techniques and abilities (including channelling ghosts for crying out loud) in a supposed Real Robot show?

That would be Yoshiyuki Tomino and assorted script writers.