The 0080 Effect

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Imperial
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The 0080 Effect

It's something of an open secret that the new mobile suit designs of 0080 began life as stylistic touch ups. Only later did Bandai decide to cook up things like the United Maintenance Plan to explain that these were actual brand new models we were seeing. That's not a Gelgoog! It's a Gelgoog Jager. That's not a GM! It's a GM Command! Et cetera

I made this topic to ask two things.

1. Is the same true of 0080's battleships? I have the lurking suspicion that the Musai "final production type" was meant to be an updated Musai design and little else.

2. Is the same true for 0083? I get the feeling Cima's Gelgoog Marines were meant to be run-of-the-mill Gelgoogs, but that area is a bit murkier. Were these intended to be new models from the beginning or did they get retconned after the fact?
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Re: The 0080 Effect

Imperial wrote:It's something of an open secret that the new mobile suit designs of 0080 began life as stylistic touch ups. Only later did Bandai decide to cook up things like the United Maintenance Plan to explain that these were actual brand new models we were seeing. That's not a Gelgoog! It's a Gelgoog Jager. That's not a GM! It's a GM Command! Et cetera

I made this topic to ask two things.

1. Is the same true of 0080's battleships? I have the lurking suspicion that the Musai "final production type" was meant to be an updated Musai design and little else.

2. Is the same true for 0083? I get the feeling Cima's Gelgoog Marines were meant to be run-of-the-mill Gelgoogs, but that area is a bit murkier. Were these intended to be new models from the beginning or did they get retconned after the fact?
Not entirely sure of 1, but taking MS Era's depiction of everything into account, I'd get the feeling that all of Izubuchi's 0080 designs were typically meant to stay entirely separate from the TV series canon until it was retconned in as totally new designs, and I don't see any reason why the ships would be left out of that. :)

Of course, his "alternate" depiction of existing MSG designs in the 0080 model kit instruction manuals sort of muck up that premise, but I'm assuming those were drawn up after the retcon or something.

Also, 0083 makes it clear in the opening sequence that the designs from the 0079 cartoon were still perfectly canon in it's depiction, seeing as GMs were GMs and NO GM Kai's whatsoever, and Gato's Gelgoog was just another MS-14A, so no, the same does not apply.

Although seeing as MS IgLoo retconned the GM Kai into the last days of the war, and in 0083 they seem to be the mainstay of the entire Federal forces, I'm a bit surprised they aren't present at all in the 0081 game... :|

Speaking of the Gelgoog Marine...actually on second thought, I'll make my own thread. :)
Last edited by J-Lead on Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

That answers that question. As pointed out, the newcomer designs of 0083 exist alongside the classics. That's what I get for making an 0083 thread without having watched it recently.

However, there's still the first part. The Tivvay couldn't possibly be mistaken for anything other than what it is, so it makes me wonder where the Musai falls.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

The omission of the GM Kai in 0081 might have reversed the retcon in MS Igloo. Unless they just didn't like sending fresh units into Africa. At the same time, from the GM Striker profile, it says that it was based on the GM Kai which was "in development". Obviously a few early rolled out GM Kais would have been deployed for data gathering, but I highly doubt that there were as many as MS igloo intended to convey. Also, the MS-14(B)s in MS Igloo are in substance A types, since novices were only given regular versions.

The GM Kai was just an attempt to depict the notion of a later type mainstay GM in One Year War. Of course though the GM Command line was similarly designated as later production type GM, it is not a mainstay as it was reserved for aces. However, Gihren's greed treated the GM command as a perfect substitute for the standard GM as a mainstay.

I also have to say that the depiction of both the 0080 and 0083 OVAs are quite biased. We can't expect that not a single non Katoki or Izubichi designed mobile suit participated in the battles. Not trying to discard 80% of the visual scenes, but as canon as anime productions can be, they're just a mere representation and only paints a small picture of the fictitious universe. This especially applies to vast battles. Data reference books that provides numerical data on unit participation is more credible. However, they're usually generalised by unit type like GM type, Gelgoog type, gouf type battleship, cruiser and etc just to facilitate future retcons.

Btw, the Zaku II FZ has hardly been depicted. The most recent canon depiction was in a profile in Gihren's Assassination Plot, being assigned as a royal guard or something. Also, I've never really understood the purpose of the Gelgoog Marine? I'll discuss on the other thread.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

Calubin_175 wrote:Also, I've never really understood the purpose of the Gelgoog Marine, was it used just to capture and secure enemy bases? Was it more economical than the A type?
The Gelgoog Marine was simply a Gelgoog variant specially fitted for the Zeon Marine Corps, that's pretty much the basic description. We often see them lacking beam weapons in 0083, which might imply a different mission role than the standard Gelgoog, but those are just handheld weapons, and unfortunately, we never did see any footage of them fighting during the OYW. So with this in mind, their traditional loadout we often see them with can be attributed to two things; 1; the Cima fleet lacks the materials needed to maintain beam weapons, or simply never got their hands on any, and 2; it might be more of a personal choice on the part of the pilots rather than any sort of standard armament. The Zeon Marines probably favor the reliable weapons they are used to rather than the newer beam rifles.

Other than that, I'm not so sure it's more economical, seeing as it's got improved performance over the standard Gelgoog.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

I think there was a thread some time ago that touched on the rifle issue.

If memory serves, it was stated that Zeon beam rifles are high maintenance, particularly due to overheating issues. Cima's forces didn't have access to much of the technology that would allow her Marines to use beam rifles with any degree of regularity, so most of them used machine guns instead.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

I wonder... since the Gelgoog Marines don't use beam rifles, and since they're Marines (the landing corps attached to the Navy), my best guess is that the Zeon Marine Corps MS are designed specifically for combat inside of colonies... or, to be specific, colonies that the Zeons would like to preserve.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

Assorted odds and ends...
Calubin_175 wrote:The omission of the GM Kai in 0081 might have reversed the retcon in MS Igloo. Unless they just didn't like sending fresh units into Africa. At the same time, from the GM Striker profile, it says that it was based on the GM Kai which was "in development". Obviously a few early rolled out GM Kais would have been deployed for data gathering, but I highly doubt that there were as many as MS igloo intended to convey.
They wouldn't be just retconning IGLOO, they'd also be retconning what we see in 08th MS Team, which shows the RGM-79[E] as the direct predecessor to the GM Kai, plus the various model kits and whatnot that go with that. As it is now, the history of the GM Kai is fairly simple (Luna II develops the -79[E], then the -79C GM Kai, which is what they produce, not the basic GM, and it is adopted as the mainstay after the war) and trying to remove it would lead to the very messy (Not to mention akward) ideas from the past (Luna II develops the GM Kai, then goes to another design, then goes back to it? :roll:). All that said, I'd think, and hope, they aren't trying to change that mess, but IGLOO's depection is accurate based on what we know (Namely, Luna II only built GM Kais).
J-Lead wrote:So with this in mind, their traditional loadout we often see them with can be attributed to two things; 1; the Cima fleet lacks the materials needed to maintain beam weapons, or simply never got their hands on any, and 2; it might be more of a personal choice on the part of the pilots rather than any sort of standard armament. The Zeon Marines probably favor the reliable weapons they are used to rather than the newer beam rifles.
I'd suspect it would be a mix of all of those things. IIRC, not even all of the stock Gelgoogs were able to get beam rifles, and after years on the run, it may have been easier for the Cima Fleet to make due with machine guns they could find ammo for in giant battlefields (Or perhaps get from some friendly sources back in Zeon or on the moon?) than it was to get/support beam rifles. Plus, the Marines being the way they were, it very easily could have been a choice on their part to use the MMP-80 over beam rifles...

Going back to the OP...
Imperial wrote:1. Is the same true of 0080's battleships? I have the lurking suspicion that the Musai "final production type" was meant to be an updated Musai design and little else.
For most of them, yes, they were just ment to be updated versions of what we originally saw in MSG rather than different versions. The only ship that I don't think falls into that category might be the Grey Phantom, as I forget if Izubuchi ever showed his take on White Base in MS Era. However, everything else, such as the Musais and basically anything else you can think of, were intended to be redone versions of the old designs, rather than brand new classes and whatnot.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

I read a bit on the Katoki GM on Japan Wikipedia. MS Igloo may have been trying to depict the RGM-79C Later Type GM, not the RGM-79C GM Kai. The Later Type GM refers to the Katoki GM with the Izubuchi GM Command backpack featured in Sentinel 0079 piloted by future Sentinel 0088 characters Tosh Gray and Stoll Mannings. So likewise with the MS-14, MS Igloo just changed the backpacks for visual purposes.

Genuine RGM-79C GM Kais did exist as it was said to be in development during the end of the One Year War. The MG account of South Burning and co piloting GM Kais were regarded as early completed units for testing. This also applies to the two GM Kais in the Nemesis team featured in manga Orera Renpou Gurentai, one of which being a GM Striker.

Even though the model numbers are the same, they'll be retconned later. Think of RGM-79SP for the Desert GM and Sniper II.

But anyway the whole GM Later Type ver Igloo not being synoymous with the GM Kai can be supported by the MS Igloo book itself. It does say that the common model number meant that the GM Kai shares technology with the Later Type (ver.Igloo). Furthermore, it also said that the Later Type was rolled out too late and only saw participation in A baoa Qu. This sort of contradicts the Sentinel 0079 claim, but it is still plausible to say that a few units were at the battle of Solomon.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

I think it might be overstating things to say that every machine in Gundam 0080 was originally meant to be the original type drawn differently (or, to use the analogy I've seen some Japanese writers use, photographed by higher-resolution cameras). There are several different GM variants in the series, so they can't all be updated versions of the standard GM. In any case, I think the new model numbers and names were established by the time the OVA episodes were released, so it's not like there was a substantial time lag before the retconning began.
J-Lead wrote:Of course, his "alternate" depiction of existing MSG designs in the 0080 model kit instruction manuals sort of muck up that premise, but I'm assuming those were drawn up after the retcon or something.
The kit manual illustrations are by Fukuchi, not Izubuchi. Even there, it's often unclear whether these are meant to be new machines or updated drawings of old ones; look at the confusion over the GM Light Armor illustration, for example.


As for Gundam 0083, something similar actually happened with some of Katoki's designs. The RGM-79C GM Kai, MS-06F2 Zaku II, and RB-79C were originally designed for Model Graphix's "Sentinel 0079" feature as simple detail-up versions of the original GM, Zaku II, and Ball. (Although the Sentinel 0079 version of the GM had a GM Command backpack.) In the case of Katoki's Zaku II, even the early 0083 production line art has it labeled as a standard F or J type, with notes on the different cockpit layouts of these two types. But otherwise, most of the 0083 machines seem to have been designed as variations all along.
Calubin_175 wrote:The omission of the GM Kai in 0081 might have reversed the retcon in MS Igloo.
I think that particular retcon dates back to The 08th MS Team; if you have an early version of the GM Kai in service as early as October 6, U.C. 0079, it's perfectly reasonable that the final version would show up before the end of the war.
Also, the MS-14(B)s in MS Igloo are in substance A types, since novices were only given regular versions.
An A type with a High Mobility backpack is a B type by definition. Most of the official materials classify the Gelgoogs seen in MS Igloo as simply "MS-14" types, just to pay it safe.
Of course though the GM Command line was similarly designated as later production type GM, it is not a mainstay as it was reserved for aces.
I don't think so. The GM Command shows up in Gundam 0080 in homogenous units made up of regular pilots, and the explanation offered in the kit manuals and whatnot is that this type was used to defend bases and colonies so that it could gather data in relative peace and quiet. In other words, the GM Command is used mainly for defense, and the fact that it outperforms the offensive versions may tell us something about the priorities of the wartime Federation Forces.
Btw, the Zaku II FZ has hardly been depicted. The most recent canon depiction was in a profile in Gihren's Assassination Plot, being assigned as a royal guard or something.
I don't think the Hitler (oops, Gihren) Assassination Plot manga is "canon" any more than any other comic. There are some references to the FZ type in the Gundam 0083 novels, but otherwise it does seem to have dropped off the face of the Earth. :-)

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Re: The 0080 Effect

I don't think so. The GM Command shows up in Gundam 0080 in homogenous units made up of regular pilots, and the explanation offered in the kit manuals and whatnot is that this type was used to defend bases and colonies so that it could gather data in relative peace and quiet. In other words, the GM Command is used mainly for defense, and the fact that it outperforms the offensive versions may tell us something about the priorities of the wartime Federation Forces.
Wow thanks, I really wish I could have access to the first generation kit manuals. So the GM Command is a just another terrain regional specific unit like the Desert GM and Land Use GM. When they're not used for guarding high profile sites, they''ll be given to special squads like the Kajima Team and Phantom Sweep.

I was hoping that there would be more high performance production models like Snipers, GM Custom, GM cannon II, GM Striker and Guncannon D. The potential RGM version of the RX-81 would be similar to the Custom's role. Perhaps that was rejected in favor of the simplified Alex rather than the mainstream RX-78 line.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

the lack of other models in 0080 and 0083 are more of an cost saving measure it is easyer to just cut and paste lines of one model zaku II insted of a more accurate lineup of assorted models. we never see the fz type due to the absurdity of zeon actually going through with a total redesign of the zaku 2 that looks nothing like the older models while it is attempting to phase it out for the more modern gelgoog the other three ump ms fit in since both had a modern unit in service. the f2 zaku at least looks like it would be a refit path for older zaku units that are more or less being forced in to service. i always assumed the gm cold climate type was the "GM" redesign for 0080 and the gm commands were the newly added model seeming to be a clsoer fit to a true mass produced gundam. 0083 seemed to take the 0080 recons and at least do a better job in to working the new tech tree out better the other reason may be that sunrise really does not want to have any more productions where they need to pay all of the gundam mechanical designers.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

I suppose the real question is that is there any reason to accept the idea that the 0080 machines really are new versions? (Other than official Word Of Sunrise, I mean; we throw that out the window when it doesn't make sense all the time. :wink: )

With the exception of the Alex and the Kampfer (which are obviously unique, new units) and possibly the Hygogg (which is so vastly different from the original that I'm hesitant to say "it's just a Gogg"), none of the "new" MS shown in 0080 make any bloody sense. Why are there new versions of Zakus and Doms when production on them stopped months before? Why are there new versions of Gelgoogs when they haven't even gotten the original version into full production yet? For all of these newer, higher-spec mobile suits (including the several varieties of GMs that show up), why are they messing about in backwater bases instead of being thrown into the meatgrinder of the EFF's space offensive?

How does those units being new variants make more sense in any possible way than them simply being re-imaginings? (Or "higher-resolution" -- I rather like that analogy. Thanks for that one, Mark!)
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Re: The 0080 Effect

Jeff's comparison of the GM Cold Climate being the "standard" GM makes sense to me. You notice the GM Command line adds the Gundam beard to the head in both the space and colony versions, whereas the Cold Climate keeps your traditional GM facemask. Plus compare the shield design.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

Calubin_175 wrote:Wow thanks, I really wish I could have access to the first generation kit manuals. So the GM Command is a just another terrain regional specific unit like the Desert GM and Land Use GM. When they're not used for guarding high profile sites, they''ll be given to special squads like the Kajima Team and Phantom Sweep.
Since you mention it, the original Gundam 0080 kit manuals have quite a lot of info on the production and deployment of these machines, including a "Deployment Status" sidebar for each featured mobile suit. Later sources such as the MSV Collection File and the HG-UC kit manuals have elaborated on this a bit, but since you seem particularly interested in the info provided at the time, here are the highlights...


RGM-79G GM Command
Deployment Status
This RGM-79G was a comprehensively improved local warfare machine developed in the final stage of the One Year War. Because these improved machines were deployed as reserve machines in many different regions, only a few were assigned to each individual unit, but the total production run was fairly high. Where this particular machine is concerned, in many cases it was deployed to areas other than the main battlefields. The machines of the RGM-79D and G series were used mainly for colony defense, guarding the harbors even of neutral colonies as well as performing colony maintenance and repair, or were stationed in cold regions such as the north and south poles and to defend remote communications facilities that had little strategic importance.
RGM-79GS GM Command
Deployment Status
In many cases, the RGM series mobile suits completed in the final stage of the war were deployed to areas other than the main battlefields. This was so that, after various combat tests had been performed in these areas, they could replace the earlier types as the main force in the upcoming invasion of the Zeon homeland. Accordingly, mass production took place at military factories all over the earth. After the Battle of A Baoa Qu, however, a peace treaty was concluded with Zeon. At this point these mass produced machines had not yet reached the battlefield, and they ultimately became the ancestors of the main machines of the postwar Federation Forces.
MS-06FZ Zaku II
Like a lot of early sources, the kit manual suggests that the FZ type is just an upgrade applied to existing machines, but it also describes it as a "production type". Personally, upgrading existing Zakus makes a lot more sense to me than building new ones, even if they have to be recalled to the factory to receive the upgrade.
Deployment Status
The Zaku was the main force of Zeon at the beginning of the war. In the middle stages of the war, various local warfare versions and newly developed machines designed for local warfare began reaching the front lines, and dramatic changes in deployment took place. The Zaku, which excelled as a general purpose machine, was inevitably inferior in performance compared to machines which specialized in a single function. Gradually, it was withdrawn from the front lines. But with Zeon's low industral power, full-scale deployment of new machines was impossible, and so the Zaku type had to remain one of its main machines. Since the FZ type was produced in the final stage of the war, it was not sent to Earth and was used only by some units of the space fleet.
MS-09RII Rick Dom II
The main text mentions that the Rick Dom II was based on technological feedback from the prototype MS-14. It adds that "the manufacturing process of the MS-09RII was little changed from that of the 09R, whose production lines were simply taken over to begin mass production. However, the war was already in its final stage at this point, and few machines actually entered combat."
Deployment Status
The MS-09 was deployed mainly in Europe and Southeast Asia, which were the areas of fiercest combat. Later, machines that had been modified for tropical combat were deployed on the African front.

The MS-09R was deployed mainly as a replacement machine for the space fleets to which the MS-06 had been assigned. In particular, priority was given to the orbital fleets and the space fortresses of Solomon and A Baoa Qu, which were expected to become the front lines. Had the mass production of the MS-09RII been completed, 09R deployment would have continued with this machine.
MS-14Jg Gelgoog Jaeger
The kit manual describes this as a "prototype development machine" sent directly to the front lines as a desperation tactic, much like the Kaempfer.
Deployment Status
Of all Zeon's mass production mobile suits during the One Year War, it was this Gelgoog series which had the most superior performance. Because its deployment began during the final stage of the war, it didn't produce great combat results, but it is said that a Federation defeat would have been inevitable had the mass production of this machine begun one month earlier. It was developed mainly for use in space and assigned to each of the main fleets, and it began having an effect on the overall war situation after the Battle of Solomon. A few units were also produced for ground use, and these were deployed as reserve units to areas such as the African front, even after the main battlefield had shifted to space. As a result of field modifications, a few machines such as variations for desert use have been confirmed.
MSM-03C Hygogg
The main text mentions that "a considerable number were produced before the end of the war".
Deployment Status
MSM-03 series mobile suits were often combined in formation with the MSM-07 type, and their deployment status followed that of the MSM-07. They were deployed in most of the rivers and coastlines inside and outside the territory of the Principality forces, particularly in North America, western Africa, Micronesia, and the northern coast of the Eurasian landmass. They were also often deployed independently.
MSM-07E Z'Gok E
Deployment Status
Although the MSM-07 series mobile suits were amphibious, they also had high land warfare capabilities. In particular, they proved highly effective in landing operations, and so many were deployed around coastal regions in North American, western Africa, Micronesia, and the northern coast of the Eurasian landmass. Here they produced more than satisfactory combat results in cutting off the supply lines of the Federation Forces.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

That had to be one extensive refit of the zaku 2. seeing that it would have to face gm's in combat. if anything it leaves a link between the zaku 2 and 3 models.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

JEFFPIATT wrote:That had to be one extensive refit of the zaku 2. seeing that it would have to face gm's in combat. if anything it leaves a link between the zaku 2 and 3 models.
It's hard to see much physical connection between the classic Zaku II and the FZ type, but it's a smaller leap from the (retroactively designed) F2 to the FZ. Allowing for artistic differences, it looks like you could turn an F2 into an FZ simply by replacing the head, backpack, and shoulder shield; swapping in new torso armor; and attaching a couple of pieces to the forearms and toes.

And despite the external differences, it's actually surprising how little the internals of the FZ type are changed. It has the same generator and weight specs as a classic Zaku II, and we're told that it has no more propellant capacity. Really the only internal changes are a new backpack with higher thrust, a new cockpit setup, and some extra apogee motors. In some respects, it's a less radical revamp than the F2 type, which has a higher generator output and is much more lightweight.

That's arguing from the specs, of course, which is usually a bit of an irrelevance. Actually, the main thing I notice about the specs of the F2 and FZ types is that the FZ specs are copied and pasted from the standard F type, while the F2 specs seem to be based on the J type specs previously published in Entertainment Bible 1. That probably tells us something about what Zaku models these were originally "supposed" to represent.

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Re: The 0080 Effect

No greater a rebuilding that those which could have potentially seen the same RGM-79 frame turned from a -79B into first a -79C, then a -79R, and then an -86. I don't find it all that fantastic, really. Ultra-modified M4 Sherman tanks built in 1944 were still being used in combat in the late '60s and early '70s, and could hold their own or defeat designs twenty years their junior.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

The only obviously redesigned Earth machines in there are the GM Sniper and the Guncannon.

They're deployed pretty much completely consistently with what we've seen of the Pegasus Class line and MSV to boot. The White Base has a Gundam and 2 Guncannons; the Grey Phantom had a Gundam, 2 Guncannons, and 2 interceptor duty GM "Snipers"; the Albion had a Gundam, 2 GM Cannons and 3 interceptor duty GM Customs; the Thoroughbred had 2 Gundams and 3 Guncannons in the One Year War; and we can probably guess 203 comes from the Blanc Rival (or there may be a source on this even, I can't remember) and it had a Gundam (G-3) and 2 or 3 Guncannons.

For the GMs there doesn't seem to be a "plain GM" in there, as they seem to have been designed with the idea of constant local modifications and manufacturing variations ala the VF-1 series in Macross. The Cold Climate type would seem the most vanilla of those in the show, but it's not a direct fit for something at Jaburo either. Questions like whether the GM Command's beam gun is meant as a less ray gun looking redesign of the beam spray are somewhat harder to say though. Plenty of traditional Zaku machine guns appear in MS Era but not a single one in 0080.
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Re: The 0080 Effect

DeltasTaii wrote:They're deployed pretty much completely consistently with what we've seen of the Pegasus Class line and MSV to boot. The White Base has a Gundam and 2 Guncannons; the Grey Phantom had a Gundam, 2 Guncannons, and 2 interceptor duty GM "Snipers"; the Albion had a Gundam, 2 GM Cannons and 3 interceptor duty GM Customs; the Thoroughbred had 2 Gundams and 3 Guncannons in the One Year War; and we can probably guess 203 comes from the Blanc Rival (or there may be a source on this even, I can't remember) and it had a Gundam (G-3) and 2 or 3 Guncannons.
Didn't the Gray Phantom have more suits than that? I thought its compliment consisted of 2 Guncannons, 3 GM Sniper II units, and 3 more GM Command Space Types.

It's been some time since I played Encounters in Space, but I believe only two Guncannons were stationed aboard the Thoroughbred as it appeared in that game. The manga might disagree, but the video game is the only source I can draw on.
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