Freedom and Justice; Brothers or Not?

[Izayuukan]

In many descriptions, The Freedom and Justice Gundams are often considered to be "brother units". However, I have to question this. The following parts are the ones we know they share:

Beam Sabers
Beam Rifle
Shield
Upper Centre Chest
Hands
Reactor and NJC
Cockpit
Presumably the METEOR hardpoint(s)

And these are the many body parts they don't have in common:

Head (including CIWS)
Backpack
Everything about their legs, including feet and joints
Everything about their arms, except hands
Hip and shoulder armour
Chest vents
Abdomen
Pelvis

Okay, you can argue that many of the differences are just cosmetic. Do brothers have to have the same ankle armour? Well, no they don't. But you would expect that many (if not most) of the parts would be interchangeable if they are to be called "brothers". And yet, for the most part, the two Mobile Suits are (externally-speaking) completely different.

What about internally? Well, I would argue that if the shape of the visible parts are radically different (as they are with the knees and shins for example), then that dictates what you can cram into the available room. Then there are the parts that one suit has yet another lacks; the Justice has a groin thruster yet the Freedom does not, while the Freedom has two knee thrusters the Justice lacks. Thrusters are largely an internal matter (i.e. only part of them is visible), and you cannot mess around internally without having to change some things. Therefore, I contend that internally, at least the limbs and pelvis of both suits must be as radically different than the suits are externally. In other words, a lot.

But what about the original G-Project Gundams (Duel, Buster, Blitz, Aegis and Strike)? Simple answer is that while they are all radically different to one another (even the Duel and Buster look little alike), they were never billed as "brothers". They were more like test machines, designed for individually unique mission parameters. The Freedom and Justice however are billed as brothers, so they have a higher burden of proof.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe it is just as simple as they were designed and built at the same time by the same people/companies and were picked to participate in the same mission (serving on the Eternal). Yet, I would never call the Hyaku Shiki and the Methuss brothers, and I doubt that anyone else would either. Both were born from Project Zeta, yet they are completely different, in form and function. As for mission roles of Freedom and Justice, and serving on the Eternal, two Mobile Suits which serve on the same ship, or are capable of using the same external equipment (in this case the METEOR) is nothing particularly special. The G-Project Gundams were designed to serve on the Archangel, and they're not considered brothers. External equipment are designed to be interchangeable between machines of the same military; it's basic common sense. This can be seen in the zenith of interchangeability; the myriad of striker packs out there.

Oh, I know the real reason; to make the Freedom and Justice sound cooler, as well as reflect on the friendship between Kira and Athrun. Damn, I hate out-of-universe explanations.

[Geoxile]

Looking at the production types I'd think so...the alliance gundams? Not so much

[Dendrobium Stamen]

I'd say the two count as "sibling" MS, for the simple reason that more or less every difference between the two has a perfectly reasonable in-universe justification.

Obviously, for ease of construction and maintenance, as many parts as possible want to be kept the same. That's just common sense, and the interchangability of a considerable number of their parts shows a surprising level of recognition of the budgetary and logistical concerns a military force faces, as far as Gundam goes.

The differences, too, have their place; quite simply, it's fair to assert that Freedom and Justice are built for different battlefield roles, whether operating individually, together, or as components of different units. That's really what it comes down to. But to be more specific on a few of the listed areas:

Head (including CIWS): This is the most obvious example of the "different roles" hypothesis. Justice's head is very similar to Aegis', with the horn and all; Aegis' GundamOfficial profile explicitly states that it "was meant to serve as a command unit, watching over the other GAT-X units in battle." We can assume the same applies to Justice, built to serve as a command unit for ZAFT mobile suit squadrons, and thus carries the appropriate equipment. Freedom, in this instance, is assumed not to be a purpose-designed command unit - rather an autonomous one or working with its "sibling" units. The differences in CIWS weapons reflect a compromise in the head designs; Justice's quartet of smaller guns compensate for the fact that the commander's equipment we presume is in there precludes the use of the 76mm guns used by Freedom and the mass-production GuAIZ.

Backpack: Again, it's dependent on the "roles" idea. Freedom is built to combine speed, mobility, and firepower in one frame. Justice is built as a leader of troops, a coordinator of Coordinators. Freedom's backpack, to achieve its design aims, contains a multitude of thrusters which can be pointed in one direction for high speed, or multiple directions for high mobility - and a pair of plasma beam cannons for firepower, of course. Justice's backpack is the Fatum-00 lifter unit, armed and according to GundamOfficial "can detach to serve as a remote-controlled flying platform." either to carry Justice or a damaged comrade, or attack from another direction. The series shows us that both justify and execute their roles rather well, all things considered.

Everything about their legs, including feet and joints: The cosmetic design of the legs is fairly irrelevant here; what is relevant is the purpose. An odd statement, you might say, legs are obviously there to stand on, and assist in movement according to Newtonian principles in space. But, the legs of Justice and Freedom seem to have been designed in response to their backpacks, thus giving us purpose. Freedom's main propulsion units are firmly attached to the back; it has little need for additional thrust in leg-mounted engines. Justice's main propulsion, however, is its Fatum-00 lifter, which we've established as being able to detach and operate by remote-control; with this in mind, Justice needs additional thrust units to keep it moving (and airborne on Earth) when the Fatum-00 is detached, and the most logical place is the legs.

Everything about their arms, except hands: I would say, quite simply, this comes down to their designed fighting styles. Freedom has a lot of guns, Justice has a detachable lifter and a pair of beam boomerangs. As their successors show rather more dramatically, Justice is a melee brawler while Freedom is a gunslinger. If your weapons load leans toward close combat, it's useful to have better-defended arms; as such Justice appears to have bigger and better-protected forearms for melee fighting, with the beam boomerangs on its shoulder armour. Freedom, with more of an eye towards shooting, saves weight with thinner arms (every little helps, after all) and packs additional thrust units into its shoulders for its high-mobility design requirement.

Hip and shoulder armour: The shoulders I've covered. The hip armour is another example of design-by-necessity. Justice has an extra vent on its crotch; for what, I'm not sure it's explained. But on the sides, Freedom has a pair of large folding railguns, while Justice does not. Then the rear skirt plates are largely identical, with the differences quite probably down to Justice's need to take the Fatum-00 into account.

So, there we have it. All in all, Justice and Freedom basically are "siblings" as near as I can gather, with their most obvious differences apparently dictated by mission role and the resultant design requirements. As for the more minor ones... well, not even identical twins are identical!

[Kuruni]

Don't forget that some of their weapons were test on same MS. Lupus, Lacerta, Xiphias, Picus and lifter backpack with dual beam cannon.

[SniperBlade]

I think thise is simply the roll of the unit(Bear with my I'm not on my home computer so there may be grammar problems.)

Lets look at the Freedom, it is equipped with ranged weaponry in mind. Due to its railguns and plasma cannons, the same lies within the Strike Freedom. While the Justice and the Infinite Justice is equipped with a more close range combat loadout.
Though with the Justice its not as biased to close combat.

I see it as the Freedom was made to attack targets from a range. Support the Close Combat Justice with High speed hit and Run tactics. This is more reflected I think in the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice as well.

[Izayuukan]

Obviously, for ease of construction and maintenance, as many parts as possible want to be kept the same. That's just common sense, and the interchangability of a considerable number of their parts shows a surprising level of recognition of the budgetary and logistical concerns a military force faces, as far as Gundam goes.

But the two Gundams aren't very interchangeable. Basically all the armour is different (and not just in colour), so ZAFT had to have two production lines of PSA-panels, each one unique to a Gundam. While the basic weaponry is the same (sabres, rifle, shield), the other weaponry plus the entire head and backpacks are different, preventing either Gundam to lend the other it's spare parts in those areas.

The differences, too, have their place; quite simply, it's fair to assert that Freedom and Justice are built for different battlefield roles, whether operating individually, together, or as components of different units. That's really what it comes down to. But to be more specific on a few of the listed areas:

Can they really be called "brothers" if they are designed for such different roles and possess such variety in their parts.

Everything about their legs, including feet and joints: The cosmetic design of the legs is fairly irrelevant here; what is relevant is the purpose. An odd statement, you might say, legs are obviously there to stand on, and assist in movement according to Newtonian principles in space. But, the legs of Justice and Freedom seem to have been designed in response to their backpacks, thus giving us purpose. Freedom's main propulsion units are firmly attached to the back; it has little need for additional thrust in leg-mounted engines. Justice's main propulsion, however, is its Fatum-00 lifter, which we've established as being able to detach and operate by remote-control; with this in mind, Justice needs additional thrust units to keep it moving (and airborne on Earth) when the Fatum-00 is detached, and the most logical place is the legs.

Here you are very weak. You ignore my assertion that if the external shape and features of the body are different then the internal parts themselves must either be completely different or at least have a different layout or shape.

To add to that, you go on about how different the Justice is from the Freedom, which actually supports my claim that the two suits don't deserve to be called brothers. If the two Mobile Suits are so different in function as to require that the shape of the thighs or feet need to be unique to the suit, then in my mind they can only be considered cousins rather than brothers.

But wait, that's not all. Because you go so far as to claim the Justice needs additional thrusters on its legs, when it is in fact the Freedom which possesses more thrusters. It has four leg thrusters (two calf, two knee) as opposed to the Justice's two calf thrusters. The MAHQ pictures are VERY clear on this. Sure, the Justice has vents on its knees, but those appear to be air-intakes for atmospheric flight, not thrusters per se.

So, there we have it. All in all, Justice and Freedom basically are "siblings" as near as I can gather, with their most obvious differences apparently dictated by mission role and the resultant design requirements. As for the more minor ones... well, not even identical twins are identical!

I'm not saying they have to be identical. I mean, I'm not demanding that they be as similar as the three Gundam Mk IIs were back in Zeta. But these two Gundams are just too dissimilar. To qualify as brother units they need to be the same basic frame with just mission-specific equipment. But even the frames aren't the same, only bits and pieces. Brothers they are not.

Heck, even Wing Gundam and Gundam Deathscythe are closer than these two, and they were designed independently and built for mission-specific roles. Don't forget, when Heero cannibilised the 02 in order to repair his 01 he remarked at how similar the two machines were. That's just the final nail in the coffin.

[DeltasTaii]

Brother machines shouldn't be the same, or just equipment variants of the same model-they're brothers because they're designed to work together and operate as a pair, along with the Eternal. Their use the same technology, their designs complement each other, they utilize the same special weapons platforms, and share weaponry wherever their designs overlap.

I'd consider the Guncannon far more of a sibling of the Gundam than say, NT-1. This is a matter where Freedom and Justice are clearly of a set. Of course, I'd consider the Duel and Buster brothers and Wing and Deathscythe pretty much brothers by the same criteria.

[Areku]

To expound on what DeltasTaii was saying, it seems this topic is starting to become yet another semantics debate. The objective facts are that the two suits were designed and produced at the same time by the same organization, incorporate very similar core technologies and internal equipment, have a fair amount of common external equipment (including the ability to use the METEOR units), and have design specialties that clearly supplement one another in combat.

Any talk of "brother units", or cousins, or estranged spouses, is purely subjective.

Personally, I find the "brother" comparison fitting. The facts I posted above represent a much greater degree of similarity than what normally exists between two arbitrarily chosen suits. These facts are also somewhat analogous to "brothers", in the sense that they come from a common place at a somewhat common time (parents), have a high degree of commonality in their internal equipment (genes), and are recognizable as sharing a common "design influence" despite obvious aesthetic and equipment differences (genetic brothers tend to be recognizable as such, even when they have different builds, complexion, and eye and hair color).

It's not a perfect comparison, but I feel it's apt, especially when considering their portrayal in animation (the two units' first meeting on the battlefield coincides with Athrun and Kira making peace with one another, realizing that they have common feelings and goals and rekindling their own non-genetic brotherhood).

[Aegis]

I'm not saying they have to be identical. I mean, I'm not demanding that they be as similar as the three Gundam Mk IIs were back in Zeta. But these two Gundams are just too dissimilar. To qualify as brother units they need to be the same basic frame with just mission-specific equipment. But even the frames aren't the same, only bits and pieces. Brothers they are not.

Oh? Tell that one to the Turn A and Turn X, two mobile suits that are, in fact, referred to as 'brother' suits within even animation, even though those two mobile suits look even more dissimilar to each other despite having some similar design background of sorts.

Heck, even Wing Gundam and Gundam Deathscythe are closer than these two, and they were designed independently and built for mission-specific roles. Don't forget, when Heero cannibilised the 02 in order to repair his 01 he remarked at how similar the two machines were. That's just the final nail in the coffin.

Wait, because they don't show any cannibalization in SEED, you automatically assume that THAT makes the Wing suits more 'brotherly' than with SEED, even though nothing proves otherwise? So we don't see them cannibalize Justice to repair Freedom. So? Doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist. In fact, given that Wing and DS themselves look even more different to each other compared to Freedom/Justice that it, in fact, strengthens the concept of Freedom and Justice even more given that they share more similar parts and weapons, share more noticeably similar technologies with each other, come from the same organization, and are designed very purposefully to complement each other. How can they have different frames when all you're doing is basing the machines only on their outer appearance anyways?

Seriously, as both Deltas and Areku have pointed out, you don't quite have the grasp on the concept of 'brother' suits and is simply playing with semantics. Brother suits does not mean they are both modular or interchangeable with each other. Areku in particular pretty much pointed out the reasons why the 'brother' label fits those two machines very nicely.

[Duraham]

So, going by the concept of the different MS being outfitted for different roles, how does the Providence come into a picture? It cannot dock with the METEOR, does not share the same features, but is developed together with the other two MS (IIRC)

[Kuruni]

Well, unlike Freedom and Justice, Providence's test unit was Dreadnaught. So their are from different line of development.

Add Regenerate and Testament to the cast (although the last one developed ealsewhere) and similarty between Freedom and Justice will be easier to see.

[quasadra]

the way i see it is that Freedom, Justice, Meteor and Eternal are designed as a single battle group in mind. if you strip Providence's Dragoon system, it is just a more badass nuclear powered GUAIZ.

[Volnixshin]

I would imagine they could be considered brothers since their "Father" is what they are both based off of.

[blind_dead_mcjones]

the way i see it is that Freedom, Justice, Meteor and Eternal are designed as a single battle group in mind.

don't forget the massive Regenerate

[Volnixshin]

Regenerate is more of a single unit for anti-fortress attacks. While it can combat mobile suits in large mumbers, it's more designed for hit and run against enemy strongholds.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

"Brothers" can be complete opposites of eachother just as much as being similar in many ways. Even twins can be completely different from one another, but that doesn't change the fact that they're siblings.

As pointed out, the RX-77-2 Guncannon can easily be considered a "brother" to the RX-78-2 Gundam by stemming from the same project, yet their purposes are completely opposite of one another; the Guncannon being made for a mid-range fire support while the Gundam is primarily for close-range combat while both of them really lack things for the opposite. The Guncannon only having its hands and feet for melee and the Gundam having the beam rifle or hyper bazooka for mid to longer-range attacks.

So the same can easily be applied to the (Strike) Freedom and (Infinite) Justice in that sense.