The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

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Amadi Akintunde
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The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Fri May 01, 2009 11:55 pm

By now you guys should realize that most of the topics I create here are based around my Gundam Malebolge fiction, which is in the process of a serious rewrite because things were going haywire and 'Sunrise-ish' and that's not what I want. This topic will contain concepts, questions, explanations and generalizations about the Kemal Dynasty's technological aspects.

Since I want my Gundam Universe to be more or less 'more conventional' than others, I'm requiring the use of more 'real-life' aspects of technology to be in use for a while. I don't want to step into Sunrise's 'red dot' territory since they have their methods of screwing Gundam out of proportion. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm going to try my hand at the first 'realistic' Gundam AU.

The first topic of discussion for the birth of this 'Technological database' is simple.

"Everyone has their own methods of countering electromagnetic signals and the like. Minovsky Particles, Gundanium Alloy, GN Particles, N-Jammer Cancellers. They provide 'basic' nuisances for enemy targets, such as eliminating communication signals, nullifying guided weapons, and the such. Well, what if we tried something a bit more?
Let's use Chaff as our basis. It screws with guided weapons such as missiles and radar, making it difficult to track your enemy without your eyes. What if we enhanced this a bit, tuning Chaff's conventional use to jamming radar, disrupting guided weapon signals, disrupting the visual feed of Mobile Weapons (Making the monitor go 'white noise'), and disrupting the Mobile Weapon's overall performance, if only slightly. Any ways on how we can accomplish this without making it too 'sci-fi-ish' and realistic to the point?"

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OutLawSuit
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by OutLawSuit » Sat May 02, 2009 4:31 am

The only thing that comes to mind is an electromagnetic pulse. The problem then comes down to how generate a small scale EMP. EMPs are most commonly associated with nuclear detonations but it sounds like they can be generated on a smaller scale. The question is how small of a scale and how to pull it off. Unfortunately I don't know the answers to these but it is the only conventional thing I can think of that produces the effects you're looking for.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Sat May 02, 2009 7:30 pm

Well for the effect of "Radar Jamming" there's always good old fashioned Electromagnetic Countermeasures, or ECM. I'm not really sure about the nature of it, but basically one transmit a signal of a specific wavelength that makes it harder for Radar guided missiles and other such munitions to hit a target reliably. Of course there's also the ECCM, or Electromagnetic Counter-Countermeasure which effectively cancel's the effect of ECM by, I'm assuming a like but opposite waveform of that signal. Best way to lower the effectiveness of ECCM is probably to create a kind of multi-frequency ECM that broadcasts a Radar Jamming signal on multiple frequencies and yet have it difficult to create an ECCM that can cancel out more than two ECM frequencies.

Chaff is also a good countermeasure to radar since it creates multiple signals that can confuse radar-based missiles, but I think that's better used defensively than offensively. Though of course there's always the idea of impregnating smoke with Chaff-like particles, though this kind of makes optical targeting somewhat problematic instead of as the only solution to the targeting problem.

As for the Electomagnetic Pulse, well there are ways to create an e-bomb through a chemical reaction and not just through a nuclear detonation. However, this is more offensive and not a viable answer to the "Radar Jamming" variable to a Plausible Gundam AU.

Of course there's always creating an alloy that has radar absorbing properties like those seen in modern Stealth aircraft like the B-2 Spirit Bomber and F-117 Nighthawk that could be mounted upon a mobile suit though a potential downside is that this alloy might not provide adequate ballistic protection. Probably give a reason for Mobile Suits to be as agile as seen in Anime instead of just The Rule of Cool.
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Amadi Akintunde
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Sun May 10, 2009 4:00 pm

I drew a small diagram for the spread distance of the 'Chaff-like weapon', named the "Miasma". I hadn't enough time to scan it in, so I'll just give the small specs.

SPECIFICATION 001: MIASMA Countermeasures Weapon

As the problem of Mobile suit pilots gaining visual advantages on the battlefield, Purgatorus engineers devised a countermeasure to baffle the Federation's ace pilots during the Federation-Purgatorus War. This was never put to effective use before the war's closing, however, and was put on the 'until further notice' list. Once the situation of so-called 'rebel Mobile Suits' arose in Kemal Dynasty 0025, the countermeasure was brought to fruition once more.

It was proposed to be the 'second generation of modern day chaff', codenamed the "Miasma", this countermeasures weapon was designed to jam radar capabilities, effectively disrupt Mobile Suit monitor signals, and provide external wear down to enemy Mobile Suits. Contained in what looks similar to an InterContinental Ballistic Missile, the "Miasma" has a spread distance of over 400 square miles, effectively disrupting any rogue Mobile Weapon activity, at the same time, refraining from harming the user of the aforementioned weapon or allied units.

First equipped on the massive quadraped Mobile Walker Platform "Aigaion", this weapon was put to use against the original six Gundams sent to Earth that were meant to rendezvous with rogue Earth Federation forces in South America. "Miasma's" first usage was indeed successful, crippling and/or disabling two of the rogue Gundam Mobile Suits, prompting the enemy to retreat from the battleground, being New york City.

A rough description at best, but it was what I could come up with at the time I was designing this weapon. If anyone could possibly create a better, more sensible description, I'd be grateful.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Sun May 10, 2009 7:23 pm

Actually I do have one slight question in reguards to the nature of Miasma:
Amadi Akintunde wrote:effectively disrupt Mobile Suit monitor signals
To be exact, if it disrupts the monitor signals of mobile suits, wouldn't it make the pilots within effectively "blind" until the cockpit hatch is opened?
Though he may have his flaws and faults, he was a husband and a father without equal. May the Angels welcome and accept him with open arms.

Rest in Peace, Dad

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Amadi Akintunde
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Sun May 10, 2009 9:51 pm

Exactly. They do open their hatches in order to escape. That's what makes it all the more that difficult to fight against. Not to mention the weathering of the Mobile Suit's capabilities.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Mon May 11, 2009 12:51 am

Amadi Akintunde wrote:Exactly. They do open their hatches in order to escape. That's what makes it all the more that difficult to fight against. Not to mention the weathering of the Mobile Suit's capabilities.
But would that defeat the purpose of a Minovsky-type disruption which is suppose to legitimize the existence of a giant manned robot over conventional combat vehicles?
Though he may have his flaws and faults, he was a husband and a father without equal. May the Angels welcome and accept him with open arms.

Rest in Peace, Dad

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Mon May 11, 2009 3:03 pm

The 'Minovsky type disruptor' wasn't the catalyst for Mobile Suits in my Gundam Timeline, actually. I've left that unexplained for now (Haven't had time to figure that out yet). The "Miasma" is more ore less the 'Minovsky type disruptor' in this Universe. Except a bit more devastating physically than electronically.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by crashlegacy14 » Mon May 18, 2009 7:19 am

Chaff dosen't "jam" radar, It creates additional radar signatures that are used to distract
radar guided muntions. it's similar to firing flares to distract heat seeking munitions.
from the sound of it you want to create a larger amount of additional signatures, in order to make it hard for radar equiped systems to distinguish the target from the chaff reading. the catch here would be that the chaff would have to be between the target and the guidance device to make it effective.


Why are the monitors able to be screwed with at all? aren't both the cameras and monitors directly linked to the mecha's systems? "White noise" is often the result of a lost signal from a wireless source (sattilite or over-the-air TV for example).

any kind of effect powerfull enough to disable the mecha's cameras -or the wired signal from them- is likely also to be powerfull enough to reek havoc on the entire mecha's eletronics system.
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Amadi Akintunde
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Mon May 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Well yes, that is what happens, the entire suit's electronics systems get screwed around with; the particles also contain an agent that physically weathers the exterior of the suit being affected; it's worse the more the suit is exposed.

I believe I pointed out white noise in the post describing the "Miasma". And keep in mind that only two suits were affected by it since the other four were out of visual and effective range. I suppose it acts like chaff, delivering several more contacts on radar than should be, but at the same time releasing an electronic jamming signal. I've found a list of these, but am not sure of which one to associate it with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jamm ... _deception

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by crashlegacy14 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:28 am

/facepalm

my point was that if it's powerfull enough to disable the eletronic signales trough a hard wired camera system then it would disable the entire mecha. since the mecha's activites are run using eletronic equipment. you wanted to make something capable of blinding the mecha and instead you created something that completely paralizes the mecha, nice going.

Miasma wouldn't be an eletronic radar jammer as it's a cloud effect, unless that is the canster or what ever used as a deliever device also included a eletronic radar jammer mounted in it with ample power -but that would still be seperate from the actual cloud of miasma, as well as using up valueable room in the cannsister making the clouds size/densisty less then it could be with a deticated cannsister. ether way, with the mecha being basicly paralized by miasma's magical abbility of over load eletronics the radar jamming ability would be worthless as it's redundant.

also you now state that the cloud it self has corrosive properties...that's a nightmare you couldn't use this stuff in populated centers else you risk drasticly increasing collateral damage. you listed that the way to get out of the cloud was for the pilot to open his cockpit and visually comfirm his surroundings, but this would be retarded as well, by opening the cockpit he's letting the cloud's corrosive effects to affect both him and the cockpit's internals even if he some how manges to get out he'll probably be chemicaly burned and god knows what kind of damages would be to the control system.

In my opion the way to get the effect you want would be to make it smoke impregnated with a large densisty of chaff, don't bother making it corrosive so it could be used in urban enviroments or even ontop of allied units. the explosin that would release the chaff and smoke could also geenrate enough heat on the chaff that they "blind" thermal imaging due to the amount of heat sources infront the mecha. Obiously the chaff would take care of blinding the mecha's radar. in this manner you'd have a mecha blind both vissually and with it's radar. the down side is your mecha couldn't see them inside it either.
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Amadi Akintunde
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Tue May 19, 2009 6:21 pm

Alright. I understand the problem, and think your soultion makes a whole lot more sense. I'm not technologically inclined like most people here are, and would appreciate any more assistance in this topic as far as technology goes.

I wouldn't know how to put that into a specifics description for the book, though. D:

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by crashlegacy14 » Tue May 19, 2009 10:15 pm

discribe it as a thick smoke that obscurs vision, when the pilots try using radar they'll hve a huge amount of returns.
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:58 pm

I'll edit that description with that later.

Next topic I suppose would be...

The Advancement of Weaponry throughout the Ages

During the decline of Federation-Purgatrus War, the economy of the Earth was running dry, creating an ebbing flow of funds for the Federation war effort. As cost of Mobile Suits and Beam Weaponry drastically became an issue, Federation forces had to resort to the use of old conventional weaponry against the enemy, who was still well endowed in Beam Weaponry themselves. This gave for a lack of useful resources for the Federation's low quantity of specialized Gundam Mobile Suits, thus forcing the rearmament of the six new Gundams built under the Gundam Trial Project.

Several years later, the Gundam Trial machines have been brought to light as they return to the Earth Federal Resistance's headquarters, still severely handicapped in conventional vs beam technology. As the continuing struggle against what would at first glance seem like an oppressive world association takes a toll on the experimental Gundam Mobile Suits, the balance of power is clearly evident as the Purgatrus' edge in technology continues to increase. With the Federal Resistance staying stuck in the past, the Purgatrus continues to look towards the future of ingenuity.

Now, my question is if this would work without any hitches going on. I want this to be realistic all the way through, and want to make the story as immersive as possible. Is it an interesting concept?

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:07 pm

All I can say about this little tech development note is that if the Federation is forced to utilize conventional, non-directed energy weaponry upon their mobile weapons, then one of the following would probably occur with their mobile suit models and especially their gundams:

1) Their reactors will have to be downgraded as well since they do not have to support, and possibly sustain, beam weaponry and thus lowering the cost of the mobile suit models even more. The most powerful weapon system that any federation mobile suit could be equipped with would be dumb-fire missile systems such as bazookas and rocket propelled grenades. Limited in the number of rounds fired and difficult to hit the enemy with, but when they do, they cause considerable damage on par with beam weaponry.

2) The reactors overall heat and energy are redirected from weapon systems to propulsion, resulting in faster moving and maneuvering compared to Purgatrus mobile weapons that could make them harder to hit with beam weaponry. Downside would be that these federation models are effectively gas guzzlers that would either mean more space needing to be allocated to propellant and remass alone or that they're reduced to hit-and-run tactics and use due to the lack of propellant and remass the machine has.

Either way, federation mobile suits will have to be drastically redesigned and refitted to cope with a lack of a need to individually support directed energy weaponry such as beam weapons. Same could be said of mobile weapon tactics that would force pilots to try and out maneuver their Purgatrus enemy to bypass the thicker forward facing armor and target the thinly armored, if armored at all, rear side similar to tank and armor warfare on the modern battlefield.

Of course, this also means that Federation Mobile Suit units can't simply steal Purgatrus beam weaponry during raids due to incompatibility problems with them and I don't mean energy plug designs. More like a lack of energy plugs and a reactor powerful enough to support said beam weaponry to boot.
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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:32 pm

Well, to be completely accurate with your explanation there, the Gundams ARE still beam weapon compatible; but the reactors that they use are rather limited, so the use of beam weaponry would be limited as well; as in only a few minutes of using a beam rifle or beam saber would sap a Gundam of it's energy reactor. That's why I've assigned them kinetic weapons, aside from the fact that beam weaponry these past few years in Gundam has been poorly and shamelessly flaunted in so many various ways.

But yes. The Gundam Trial machines can access beam weaponry, but only for a minimal amount of time. 10-15 minutes tops before their reactors run dry. 5 minutes before reactor shutdown, the pilot is prompted to auto-purge the beam weapon, and continue combat with their standard armament or proceed to retreat.

Not sure how to put that into a easier-to-understand explanation. It seems all over the place.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:41 pm

My understanding of the relationship between beam weaponry and reactor output may not be well developed and understood as most other gundam fans, but somehow a mobile suit reactor simply running out of energy using a beam rifle or any other kind of beam weaponry doesn't seem like the logical outcome. Seed maybe, but not everywhere else.

Since (as far as I understand it) beam weapons are supported by the output of the reactor, the gundams in this AU would probably instead have reduced combat performance when it comes to beam weaponry. Low shot count and duration being a prime example. Not really sure about weapon performance and damage for ranged beam weaponry since mobile suit portable ranged beam weaponry only require a small amount of energy to complete the fusion process of already high pressurized minovsky particles into mega particle and the damage is relatively the same no matter the reactor output. Though I suspect that beam sabers would have a reduced damage potential when used and possibly even penetrated on Federation Gundams when having a duel with Purgatrus mobile suits.
Though he may have his flaws and faults, he was a husband and a father without equal. May the Angels welcome and accept him with open arms.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:53 pm

Well yeah, that's kind of the point I was trying to find out.

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Sabersonic » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:05 am

Amadi Akintunde wrote:so the use of beam weaponry would be limited as well; as in only a few minutes of using a beam rifle or beam saber would sap a Gundam of it's energy reactor.
Amadi Akintunde wrote:10-15 minutes tops before their reactors run dry.
Some how, the notation of having a reactor run dry from beam weaponry use doesn't exactly equate to reduced beam weapon performance compared to normal. But that's just me.

Anywho, since I have no idea as to the power difference between reactor types and their impact upon their beam weaponry of Gundam Trial Project suits and the standard Pugatrus models, I'm gonna have to guesstimate the difference using two OYW mobile suit models: The RX-78-2 Gundam and the MS-09 Dom.

The reactor of the Gundam has an output of about 1380 kW and the Dom as a reactor output of 1269 kW as stated in their profiles. For sake of argument, let's assume that the output for Federation Gundams are akin to the Dom and the output for the standard Pugatrus models are similar to the Rx-78. Assuming that all energy allocation and distribution is roughly equal, I've calculated that any beam weaponry's combat effectiveness and endurance (and by that I mean how long and how many shots before it runs dry) are reduced to 91.9% on a Federation Gundam than on the standard Pugatrus mobile suit model.

Granted, that doesn't seem like much of a change numbers wise but it could be those precious few seconds and shots that determines victory or death in a mobile suit battle.
Though he may have his flaws and faults, he was a husband and a father without equal. May the Angels welcome and accept him with open arms.

Rest in Peace, Dad

"If I had seen farther than others, it has been by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Sir Issac Newton

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Re: The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:17 am

I plan on doing away with that running dry thing. But if you wanted to compare the Gundam Trial Suits to a Universal Century counterpart, you'd be better comparing the Zephyranthes and the Kampfer, really; based on reactor types and the like. With the Gundams being similar to the Kampfer and the Purgatrus being similar to the Zephyranthes.

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