The Kemal Dynasty Spec Book

[Amadi Akintunde]

Hm. Guess I never really thought of it like that.

[Amadi Akintunde]

Well, as my Gundams and other respective Mobile Suits are being designed, I've been watching a little of Patlabor and VOTOMS. I noticed the relative size of the mechs there, noticed they could be relatively compact when considering height. So, to make things a bit more meaningful in the name of being somewhat realistic to a point, I'm going to reduce the size of my mecha to 13-15 meters, from a rather high 17 meters. I realize that this may be a drastic change from 'holy crap a huge mecha on the horizon' to 'where the hell is this thing I can't see it', but to be truthful, after seeing VOTOMS, Patlabor and Gundam F91, I realized Mobile Suits don't always have to be 17-20 meters tall to be effective.

My question is, would the decrease in height make Mobile Suits; the Gundams especially, generally ineffective while using heavy weapons or machinery that requires a bit of heavy lifting?

[crashlegacy14]

not really if the weapons are similarly scaled, one thing you've got to keep in mind is there being enough from for all the internals and the cockpit. it's something that had gotten in my own way of miniaturizing my mecha as well. (for instance with my units they are suppose to be around 36feet tall but I consistently end up with ~40s for height when I try to extrapolate the height based on my drawings.) one of the most important things you need to realize is that the real world weapons already produced have set sizes. so generally the smaller you make mecha the more vulnerable they should be to standard military weapons like tanks.

[Sabersonic]

so generally the smaller you make mecha the more vulnerable they should be to standard military weapons like tanks.

Isn't that some sort of paradox? I mean the really big point against mechs the size of a mobile suit or larger is that they're easier to target and generally not as well armored as a tank utilizing the same armor materials.

Though I suspect that smaller mechs, maybe in between the VOTOMs and Knightmare Frame scale to Manga Arm Slave scale, that they're maneuverable enough to avoid getting targeted long enough to get a few shots off before having to find cover. Well that and being more "Urban Warfare" friendly.

[Seraphic]

so generally the smaller you make mecha the more vulnerable they should be to standard military weapons like tanks.

Isn't that some sort of paradox? I mean the really big point against mechs the size of a mobile suit or larger is that they're easier to target and generally not as well armored as a tank utilizing the same armor materials.

Though I suspect that smaller mechs, maybe in between the VOTOMs and Knightmare Frame scale to Manga Arm Slave scale, that they're maneuverable enough to avoid getting targeted long enough to get a few shots off before having to find cover. Well that and being more "Urban Warfare" friendly.

He means that if the mech is smaller, its armor will be proportionally thinner. Kinda like how the Big O is made of steel, but it's friggin' huge, so its armor is heavy and good for defense. =)

Dustin, I agree that mecha shouldn't be too big for no reason. Usually, they only increase in size for the sake of carrying a larger power supply, be that a reactor or whatever. Keeping them smaller can help them be more energy efficient, especially when it comes to flight. (Meaning that bigger things are more difficult to move.)

[Amadi Akintunde]

I'm back. And I come with a scientific and economic itch.

We'll take the economic side first. I've been reading up on approximated costs used to produce(?) military grade weaponry. Specifically fighters and/or tanks. I'm going to compare these two factors. This information has been taken from Wikipedia, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The cost of an F/A-22 Raptor: $361 Million

The cost of an M1 Abrams Tank: $6.21 Million

Taking these little factoids into account, how much do you figure the production costs of a Mobile Suit would come to? Let's hazard a guess with something like the GM Custom. I haven't seen much of anything on the net speaking of the production costs of select Mobile Suits. Even though they may be priced with fictional currency.

-----------------------------------

As for scientific, I've been comparing the weight of certain Mobile Suits with that of Metal Gear REX. According to the spec data of the Metal Gear REX, it weighs in at a rather astounding 505.45 metric tons. Now, as the wiki here states, the canonicity of this information is rather questionable, despite coming from a Metal Gear Solid factbook. And the GM Custom's spec sheet weighs it at 57.6 metric tons. Can someone tell me why the hell an 18 meter humanoid machine weighs less than an Abrams tank?

And would the height and weight of REX (12 meters/505.45 tons) be appropriate when putting physical evidence into play? And if so, would editing the weight of a Mobile Suit(12 meters high/70 metric tons) to something around the weight range of REX appear a bit more feasible; despite the usual "Mobile Suits aren't real, don't try to make them so" argument?

These two little sets of information have been nagging at my head for a while, and I was curious if anyone would be able to toss in an answer or two. I apologize if the questions are rather difficult to read or comprehend at first, I'm still brushing up on my verbal and written speech.

(For a second there I almost read REX's weight as 505,450 tons! )

[crashlegacy14]

I recall an article from a while back that put the price tag of building a gundam sized robot with current technology would require ~700 million, and that was ignoring labor and replacing things like the learning computer and gundainum armor with stuff we have available today.

The thing is mobile suits are not something we can readily put a price tag on. we have no idea how much things like a MS' autobalancer, control system, or what-not would cost because a lot of what would be required to make a 18 meter tall bipedal machine is out of our reach. It would be the equivalent of people in 1905 trying to guess what the price tag on a F-16 would be . (1905 is around when The Wright brothers where making their first flights). There are a tone of things that have occurred between the opening years of the 1900s and present that have affected the cost of a F-16, like inflation, two world wars, and the technology boom.

on the other end technical end of the stick:
(here comes some faulty math!)

I'm far from the best when it comes to making relative measurements but you should probably start by considering how realistic that weight its for REX before comparing it to any mobile suit. I going to be simple about this, the M1 Abrams (since you're using it as a comparative for the GM custom later on) is roughly 8m long x 4m wide x2.5m tall. it weighs in at 61 metric tons. The REX according to the metal gear wiki ranks in at 7.5m long x 6m x 12m tall and the supposed 505 metric tons. Assuming that my math is correct and that the two share an overall same density compared to the space they take up (which I believe would be more then fair since REX while likely made of heavier materials doesn't actually take up the entire space I'm calculating for it -probably not even half of it) The REX should weigh more along the lines of 411 metric tons, while still a lot, that's almost a 5th less then those statistics indicate.

While I've got my calculator out and using the Abrams as a example, I'll hit up a estimate on what the GM custom should weigh given it's dimensions and the Abrams weight to area ratio. Given that the profile for the GM custom only lists it's height and weight I'm going to taking guesses at it's shoulder width and depth. 18m tall x 8m wide (at shoulders) x3.5m (front of chest to end of the backpack). and of course it's listed weight is 5.7 metric tons. using the same assumptions I made with the REX the GM custom would weigh around 385 metric tons. Significantly heavier then what the profile lists.

Now here's the rub, this is all assuming that including the empty spaces between limbs in the area they take up, that all there of these machine have the same overall density. That's relatively unlikely, as I point out in my bit about REX, half of that mecha's height is made up of it's legs, and they don't take up even half of the overall area under it. The dimensions and recorded weight I used here are from the "Official Metal Gear Solid Handbook" and as the Metal Gear Wiki states that other areas of the same statistics are straight out incorrect.
With the GM custom consider that the mecha's fuel supply and built in armaments apparently make up the 9.6 ton difference between it's dry and max gross weight, that's almost a 5th of it's listed max gross weight! Considering that the GM custom is used in space operations, every bit off mass it can shed would be tossed out the window without a second thought. thrust to mass ratios aren't something either of the other two war-machines have to particularly worry about since they are ground bound vehicles.

Alright I'll shut up now and let some one correct the however many mistakes I made in the last few paragraphs.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

This information has been taken from Wikipedia, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The cost of an F/A-22 Raptor: $361 Million

The cost of an M1 Abrams Tank: $6.21 Million

There are a couple different ways to talk about the costs of a military unit. One is the "unit cost", which takes the total cost of the entire program, including research, design, testing, training, and construction, and divides it by the number of units produced. Another is the "flyaway cost" (or "driveaway" for tanks, I suppose), which is how much it actually costs to build a new unit, not counting the R&D costs and all of that. The figures you have listed there appear to be the unit costs -- flyaway costs for the F-22 are around $150 million each, and for the M-1 Abrams it's between 2.35 and 4.30 million, depending on the variant.

[Amadi Akintunde]

The REX according to the metal gear wiki ranks in at 7.5m long x 6m x 12m tall and the supposed 505 metric tons. Assuming that my math is correct and that the two share an overall same density compared to the space they take up (which I believe would be more then fair since REX while likely made of heavier materials doesn't actually take up the entire space I'm calculating for it -probably not even half of it) The REX should weigh more along the lines of 411 metric tons, while still a lot, that's almost a 5th less then those statistics indicate.

How'd you get that amount? I went the way of Length x Width x Height and got around 540 tons. Think I'm missing something.

While I've got my calculator out and using the Abrams as a example, I'll hit up a estimate on what the GM custom should weigh given it's dimensions and the Abrams weight to area ratio. Given that the profile for the GM custom only lists it's height and weight I'm going to taking guesses at it's shoulder width and depth. 18m tall x 8m wide (at shoulders) x3.5m (front of chest to end of the backpack). and of course it's listed weight is 5.7 metric tons. using the same assumptions I made with the REX the GM custom would weigh around 385 metric tons. Significantly heavier then what the profile lists.

I repeat my question above. Going by the formula you used there, I got 504 tons. I'm not too proficient in mathematics here, but I'm guessing you're also adding in a few other factors, in effect decreasing the weight. Mind sharing?

With the GM custom consider that the mecha's fuel supply and built in armaments apparently make up the 9.6 ton difference between it's dry and max gross weight, that's almost a 5th of it's listed max gross weight! Considering that the GM custom is used in space operations, every bit off mass it can shed would be tossed out the window without a second thought. thrust to mass ratios aren't something either of the other two war-machines have to particularly worry about since they are ground bound vehicles.

I suppose a better comparison unit would have been the GM [Ground Type] instead of something meant sorely for space. I'd just like to try to get some of these facts right before creating mechs that share the weigh class of an overweight bear. D:

[crashlegacy14]

all I did with the numbers I listed was multiply height width and length together and used it as part of a ratio.

The Abrams being our base for comparison here takes up 80 cubic meters of space and weighs 61 tonnes. The REX takes up 540 cubic meters of space, but using the abrams space/weight ratio should only weight the 411 tonnes. the GM Custom was 504 cubic meter of occupied space, and using the same ratio as before would end up at 385 tonnes.

as for using for instance the ground type gundam, there's hardly any difference in it's overall dimensions (excluding the extra backpack) and only a slight change in it's comparative weight. the weights listed for a gundam would still be extremely small compared to what my ratio would wield. a mobile suit generally weighs only a 5th as much as comparatively sized block of Abrams would. even jumping series here, one of the most realistic mecha in my mind, the Ingrams from Patlabor only take up marginally more space then the Abrams (87.5) but even those listed weights are drastically lower then what this abrams ratio would produce...like a 10th of the abrams weight.

I'd wager that besides the fact that these mecha don't actually fill the space they take up -unlike the Abrams, that another fact that would go into reducing their weight is the fact these mecha have to support their entire weight on two legs. the weights I produced based on the ratio would likely make these mecha so heavy that assuming the joints could take the stress, they couldn't walk without their feet sinking into the ground. none of these mecha have any where near the surface area on their feet to allow the ground to support them moving.

[Amadi Akintunde]

Alright, I'll return to this discussion later. Thanks for the input you two.

I've been reading up on Space Elevators. I figure that at some point in my Universe's timeline that a Space Elevator Project would be undertaken. I believe it'd be used in a variety of ways; from transporting people into space to transporting resources and materials into space and so on.

My question is, would an Elevator linking the Earth and the Moon make sense? I figure that there would be a midpoint between both celestial bodies, housing a command and control center meant to appropriate the rotation of both tethers according to the rotation of both the Earth and the Moon, among other things.

Does this make sense? I'm a little lost right now and could use some clarification. Any better ideas on how this concept may prove worthy? I realize that it's already rather abundant in Gundam 00, but it seems like the Elevators themselves were intended for public transportation than anything else if I've been watching correctly.

[Newtype87]

Alright, I'll return to this discussion later. Thanks for the input you two.

I've been reading up on Space Elevators. I figure that at some point in my Universe's timeline that a Space Elevator Project would be undertaken. I believe it'd be used in a variety of ways; from transporting people into space to transporting resources and materials into space and so on.

My question is, would an Elevator linking the Earth and the Moon make sense? I figure that there would be a midpoint between both celestial bodies, housing a command and control center meant to appropriate the rotation of both tethers according to the rotation of both the Earth and the Moon, among other things.

Does this make sense? I'm a little lost right now and could use some clarification. Any better ideas on how this concept may prove worthy? I realize that it's already rather abundant in Gundam 00, but it seems like the Elevators themselves were intended for public transportation than anything else if I've been watching correctly.

I really don't think attaching Luna to Earth would be a good idea, if even a remotely feasible one. For one, you'd need a 00-style track system for the Lunar elevator to connect to, and that's so many engineering problems that you might as well just use shuttles from the orbital stations to the moon. Anything goes wrong with the track, and you'd risk shredding one or both parts of the elevator system, which would be a disaster at the very least. I have to imagine that once you're actually in orbit, it's a lot easier and faster to get where you want to go. Even with the elevator's two or three day transit time to get up to the top, it'd probably only add an extra day or two at most to get from any one of the three stations to the moon. Then again, I'm a writer, not an engineer, so I'm not the best person to ask, but it really does sound like a bad idea.

And the main point of the solar elevators in 00 is power generation, but they're also used as the primary (and possibly ONLY) means of getting from Earth's surface to space, which is kind of the original idea behind them: a cheap and safe means of cargo and personnel transfer. So, yeah, any space elevator system would probably have to pull multiple duties to justify their massive cost, and coating them in solar panels would be a good idea even without 00's enormous solar girdle.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

My question is, would an Elevator linking the Earth and the Moon make sense?

No. It's not even physically possible. The only point a space elevator can "connect" to is geosynchronous orbit directly above it's ground station. That's at an altitude of roughly 36,000 km (depending on the latitude of the ground station, it changes somewhat). Of course, since there's nothing there, you'd have to build a space station (a rather large one) or move an asteroid there or something. But the center of gravity for the entire space elevator must be in geosynchronous orbit, or else Bad Things happen.

Trying to connect the Earth and Moon with a space elevator would fail for a lot of reasons. The most obvious one is the fact that the moon isn't always in the sky -- sometimes it's over the horizon, which would mean your space elevator would have to wrap around the planet (or, more likely, rip itself to pieces). Slightly more subtle is the fact that the distance between the Earth and the Moon varies by almost 40,000 km. Your space elevator would need to either be stretchy/squishy, or else somehow able to deal with 40,000 km of slack.

If you wanted to get from Earth to the Moon easily/cheaply/efficiently, you could build two different space elevators, one on Earth and one on the Moon, and just use space ships to shuttle stuff in between them (orbit-to-orbit space travel is cheap -- it's just getting into orbit in the first place that's hard). Alternatively, an elevator on the Moon probably won't even be necessary; it's escape velocity is only 2.38 km/s (Earth's is a smidge less than 11.2 km/s), which means it's a lot cheaper to get off the Moon than it is to get off Earth.

[crashlegacy14]

Kirby pretty much hit all the points here...except for one. Even if it was some how possible to make such an elevator, the cost of materials alone for building the expanse from lunar orbit to earth orbit would make it economically unsound.

[Amadi Akintunde]

So, after a lot of time away, I did some weight calculations for my six Gundams. I'll only post the Malebolge up for now; the list is rather lengthy and I don't feel like typing numbers all day.

GT-2110 Malebolge
--Earth Gravity--
Metric Tons (Empty) - 150.25
Metric Tons (Max) - 170.25
Lbs (Empty) - 331,244.54893
Lbs (Max) - 375,337.0137

--Moon Gravity--
Metric Tons (Empty) - 25.5425
Metric Tons (Max) - 28.9425
Lbs (Empty) - 56,311.5733181
Lbs (Max) - 63,807.2902329

Can anyone tell me if these calculations and conversions are correct?