The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Mk XIV

razgriz · Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:39 pm

so then they shouldve colored it red and called it a red flag

get it? get it? anyone? high five? (deafening silence)

ok so ill go wit that its a evolved flag, sorta like how the f/a-18e-f super hornets r hornets only they arent, if that makes sense

AnimeMun · Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:53 pm

Kira-sama wrote:I have to disagreee, while 0 cone is definitely 00's cone, Exia one is its own old cone.

Here a dcreenie from S1 ep1:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1881/conef.jpg
and one from S2 ep 25 :
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3138/gndrive.jpg

Hmmm..now that I look at that you have a great point....and chances are that they used that cone design so they could save having to animate it with 00's cone.

neolordmaxwell · Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:14 pm

It wouldn't have cost them any more or less money to animate it with Exias cone or 00's cone. Frankly, it's just been anounced that a 1/144 Exia R2 would be released, so it's probably just so they could re-use those parts for the model kit. This IS ban-rise we're talking about.

Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:30 pm

pd771 wrote:That doesn't make it an Overflag though. It's obvious (and talked about in the animation) that it is based on Flag design philosophy, but there is no evidence given that it is built on a flag frame. I also think that the cannon in the gut off the suit is in the Flag cockpit location. So it's very unlikely there was an actual flag under there. It was spiritually a Flag though.

If it wasn't really a Flag, that would kill the whole symbolism behind the reveal when Setsuna beats Graham. Aside from just resembling the Flag, why would the Susanowo have a Flag head and cockpit it wasn't actually a Flag? That'd just be a token attempt to make it a Flag if wasn't one.

pd771 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:01 pm

Chris wrote:
pd771 wrote:That doesn't make it an Overflag though. It's obvious (and talked about in the animation) that it is based on Flag design philosophy, but there is no evidence given that it is built on a flag frame. I also think that the cannon in the gut off the suit is in the Flag cockpit location. So it's very unlikely there was an actual flag under there. It was spiritually a Flag though.
If it wasn't really a Flag, that would kill the whole symbolism behind the reveal when Setsuna beats Graham. Aside from just resembling the Flag, why would the Susanowo have a Flag head and cockpit it wasn't actually a Flag? That'd just be a token attempt to make it a Flag if wasn't one.

I think it was more a way of symbolism triumphing over everything. It was more a symbol of that battle transforming Mr. Bushido back into Graham. However, in universe, I'd explain it as Billy using Federation design theory in his new unit. I mean, I still don't see how that could be a Flag, since the cannon is in the place where the flag cockpit was.

ShadowCell · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:10 pm

Uh, if all you do is move the cockpit up a few feet, but it still uses Flag parts and looks like a Flag and the whole point of breaking its visor open was so that we could see that it's still a Flag, then...it's still a Flag. Just a Flag with a GN Drive and a Trans-Am system and samurai doodads all over it.

Brave Fencer Kirby · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:17 pm

Chris wrote:If it wasn't really a Flag, that would kill the whole symbolism

What's "really" a Flag, though? The Overflag was a Flag with some tune-ups to make it more awesome. Is that still a Flag? Most people would probably agree that it is. What about the GN Flag? It's a Flag with a GN Tau drive. Is that still a Flag? I remember having that conversation back at the end of season one -- most people seemed to say "yes", but I think that completely changing the power system makes it something else (is a P-51 Mustang still a Mustang if you give it a jet engine?). Whatever else Graham's season two ride was, it was obviously heavily modified to the point of being virtually rebuilt from the ground up. I don't see how you can legitimately call that a Flag except in a spiritual sense, as pd771 suggests.

pd771 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:19 pm

ShadowCell wrote:Uh, if all you do is move the cockpit up a few feet, but it still uses Flag parts and looks like a Flag and the whole point of breaking its visor open was so that we could see that it's still a Flag, then...it's still a Flag. Just a Flag with a GN Drive and a Trans-Am system and samurai doodads all over it.

What really looks like it's actual flag parts except for the head and cockpit (which was also the Realdo cockpit)? The torso, legs, hips, thrusters, and power transferrence are different. I doubt there was a standard Flag part in there. It just wouldn't that much sense. With how heavily you'd have to modify a Flag, it seems it would be just as easy to build a new one.

ShadowCell · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:35 pm

pd771 wrote:What really looks like it's actual flag parts except for the head and cockpit (which was also the Realdo cockpit)? The torso, legs, hips, thrusters, and power transferrence are different. I doubt there was a standard Flag part in there. It just wouldn't that much sense. With how heavily you'd have to modify a Flag, it seems it would be just as easy to build a new one.

*sigh* Ockham's Razor should come in shuriken form. I could totally dig some Ockham's Ninja Stars right now.

Over Flag
Masurao

Head: same as a Flag, with stuff added on, as we saw in episode 23 when the Susanowo's faceplate broke off. Also has the same face shape as the Flag.
Torso: sides have the same shape as the sides of the Over Flag's torso.
Arms: mostly the same with only a few minor alterations, like the spikes on the elbows and lack of defense rod.
Legs: same shape in upper legs (though partially obscured by hips), same shape from below the knee down to the armor over the ankle.

Consider that a) this thing was built for a guy whose characteristic machine was a Flag, insisted on defeating the Gundam with a Flag back in season one, and even commented when he first saw it on how it looked like a Flag, and b) it actually turned out to have those Flag parts underneath anyway (which, incidentally, would explain why it looked like a Flag--'cuz it was). Obviously it's heavily modified, but why should that make a difference? Otherwise you'd have to explain why it had a Flag head on underneath, why the arms and legs and torso have those common parts, etc. A Honda Civic is still a Honda Civic no matter how many times you paint it and beef up the engine. A Flag is still a Flag, especially when the writers actually show you that in the animation.

EDIT: But wait, there's more!

toysdream, in the last [i]00[/i] mecha thread, wrote:* The Susanowo, therefore, represents a form of revenge for the Union and its long-neglected technological legacy. The fins that surround the GN Drive on its back actually form the Union symbol - subtle, Billy!

So if that's the case, then it makes even more sense for the Masurao/Susanowo to be a heavily modified and updated Flag, because the Flag, in its various forms, was the best design the Union was ever shown to have produced.

pd771 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:47 pm

Maybe we just have a fundamental disagreement on what makes something a "Flag". Even if it was based off a Flag body, I still think the changes make it totally different from a Flag. I think this is comparable to a T Bucket. Sure, both maybe be based on a classic design, or may even use parts from it, but their power and purpose are totally different. A T bucket has so many unique and custom part, is so changed from it's original, that it no longer is the same thing. That's how I feel about the Susanowo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-bucket

I still highly doubt that it was built on a Flag frame though. I think Billy just was inspired by the Union design philosophy.

Brave Fencer Kirby · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:51 pm

The only thing that really looks the same between those two pictures is the arms. The head we're shown in the animation as being the same (apparently? I didn't catch it myself), and I suppose you could argue that part of the legs are the same with extra armor over it. The (visible) head, shoulders, torso, hips, and ankles/feet are completely different, though. It seems more likely to me that they built a new torso with a GN Tau drive in it, then attached Flag extremities, then bolted more stuff on top of those, than they refitted an existing Flag with a GN Tau and all the extra jazz.

If you take a Honda Civic and drop a Ferrari engine into it, is it still a Civic? If you take your Ferrari-engined Civic and change out most of the body, is it still a Civic then?

Meteoid · Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:56 pm

Billy wasn't working for A-Laws till about episode 3 or 4 wasn't he and then he got straight to work on the Masurao, perhaps it shows that Billy hasn't got the imagination to create a new design when his old flag one worked fine.

A real world example, take a Mark III VW Polo, one built in 1995 and one in 2000. They both look the same, but the 2000 version has newer electronics and parts to it which make it better than the '95 even though they appear identical.

Strike105 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:06 pm

Upon seeing the final battle, I am curious as to how the pilots actually loaded the GN Drives onto their Gundams. I could probably see how Ribbons put the 0's Drive on it, seeing as how his Tau-equipped Gundam wasn't COMPLETELY trashed like the 00, he could have probably set the GN Drive in the 0 using it as his main tool. But in Setsuna's case, it's just a total mystery to me. The 00 was missing a GN Drive and most likely non-functional, and both the Arios and Cherudim were trashed as well. So how in the hell did Setsuna load the GN Drive onto Exia?

ShadowCell · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:06 pm

It's a giant robot. It's still got the same purpose. It's not like they took the Flag apart and made a blender out of it. The T-bucket analogy doesn't work because the T-bucket is simply a style of modification, but what you end up with is still a (heavily modified) Model T. The Masurao gets a new name because it does appear distinct from the old Flag series, but it's still a (heavily modified) Flag--as the writers pointed out.

We already have a perfectly good explanation, so all these convoluted other ideas and "fundamental disagreements" are unnecessary. You can disagree all you want, but the medium you're talking about already made up its mind.

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:If you take a Honda Civic and drop a Ferrari engine into it, is it still a Civic?

Yes. It's the same as how my used Saturn is still a Saturn even though its engine was replaced by one made by Toyota. It has the appearance and interior and all other parts of a Saturn. To call it a Toyota even though only one part of it was made by Toyota is ridiculous, because when people talk about cars they generally refer to the entire thing and not just the engine--and if they're talking about the engine alone, then they have to specify that. So if I call my car a Toyota even though in every aspect of it other than the engine it's a Saturn, everyone will ask me why I'm calling my car a Toyota when it says Saturn all over it.

If you take your Ferrari-engined Civic and change out most of the body, is it still a Civic then?

Once you take out all the Civic parts, you've taken the car apart completely, and then it's not a Civic anymore. But that analogy doesn't apply here because the Masurao obviously still has those Flag parts.

pd771 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:14 pm

ShadowCell wrote:It's a giant robot. It's still got the same purpose. It's not like they took the Flag apart and made a blender out of it. The T-bucket analogy doesn't work because the T-bucket is simply a style of modification, but what you end up with is still a (heavily modified) Model T. The Masurao gets a new name because it does appear distinct from the old Flag series, but it's still a (heavily modified) Flag--as the writers pointed out.

We already have a perfectly good explanation, so all these convoluted other ideas and "fundamental disagreements" are unnecessary. You can disagree all you want, but the medium you're talking about already made up its mind

That's not true at all. Not once did they say that is was built on a Flag frame. Now, we can always wait until the kit comes out, but blasting people because they disagree with your analysis is stupid.

Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:18 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:What's "really" a Flag, though? The Overflag was a Flag with some tune-ups to make it more awesome. Is that still a Flag? Most people would probably agree that it is. What about the GN Flag? It's a Flag with a GN Tau drive. Is that still a Flag? I remember having that conversation back at the end of season one -- most people seemed to say "yes", but I think that completely changing the power system makes it something else (is a P-51 Mustang still a Mustang if you give it a jet engine?). Whatever else Graham's season two ride was, it was obviously heavily modified to the point of being virtually rebuilt from the ground up. I don't see how you can legitimately call that a Flag except in a spiritual sense, as pd771 suggests.

If we're at the point of arguing such silly semantics about what constitutes the name of a mobile suit, things are just getting ridiculous. If the Masurao/Susanowo are based on a Flag frame, they're still in some sense a Flag, even if they've been heavily modified. Besides, what we would classify it as isn't relevant, since Graham has a hard-on for Flags and would probably still consider it a Flag regardless.

ShadowCell · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:24 pm

pd771 wrote:That's not true at all. Not once did they say that is was built on a Flag frame. Now, we can always wait until the kit comes out, but blasting people because they disagree with your analysis is stupid.

I never "blasted" you about anything.

And either way, you still haven't explained why I should ignore the scene that clearly says "hey, this thing's a Flag" and go with this needlessly complex assertion that it's not really a Flag. Especially since it's an important point to the character that it's a Flag playing dress-up. It dovetails with the character. Mr. Bushido looks like a samurai and acts like a different character, but underneath the goofy mask and coat he's still Graham Aker; the Masurao/Susanowo looks like a samurai and acts like a different mobile suit, but underneath the goofy armor it's still a Flag.

ydawg314 · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:26 pm

Chris I doubt that. Its a completely different mobile suit really. The only thing that is similar is the hidden head and the frame. Its like calling An F-22 raptor an Eagle because it was derived from the F-15 eagle.

ThaDDeusBonzu · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:35 pm

Strike105 wrote:Upon seeing the final battle, I am curious as to how the pilots actually loaded the GN Drives onto their Gundams. I could probably see how Ribbons put the 0's Drive on it, seeing as how his Tau-equipped Gundam wasn't COMPLETELY trashed like the 00, he could have probably set the GN Drive in the 0 using it as his main tool. But in Setsuna's case, it's just a total mystery to me. The 00 was missing a GN Drive and most likely non-functional, and both the Arios and Cherudim were trashed as well. So how in the hell did Setsuna load the GN Drive onto Exia?

It really wouldn't be that hard. They are in zero gravity after all, so he only had to disconnect the GN Drive and propel it towards the Exia R2. Plus, Sumeragi probably sent some Haro-bots to assist him.

T.V. · Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:38 pm

ydawg314 wrote:Chris I doubt that. Its a completely different mobile suit really. The only thing that is similar is the hidden head and the frame. Its like calling An F-22 raptor an Eagle because it was derived from the F-15 eagle.

The Hornet - Super Hornet mentioned earlier is actually a far better comparison, because the designs are overall at least similar enough, which can't be said of the F-15 and F-22.

And for what it's worth, I'd say that the Masurao/Susanowo is perhaps up 70% the same as the original Flag, beneath all the fancy do-adds.
IMO it's pretty much the first season's GN Flag Custom II, but more thoroughly redone/refined with Billy having more time and resources to spare, incorporating more elements fron the GN-X along the way.

For example, the Masurao/Susanowo's cockpit is still very much in the same location as the Flag's I reckon, meaning that the torso's structure hasn't really changed.
Only the access hatch has been changed to a topside entrance, in order to make room for the cannon that now sits in front of the cockpit, where the entrance used to be.

Though wether it not it can still be considered a Flag from a structural standpoint is really beside the point, because it's still very much a Flag in spirit, which is what counts in Graham's book.