G Gundam question

[ORegan]

Yes, yes I would. If a blob of cancer was walking about that was nothing but cancer, I would still say it was infected the object was infected with cancer, and that makes perfect sense to me.

But the Devil Gundam didn't infect an object to exist, nor did it infect anything to create the Master Gundam. It just used it's magical DG cells to create a weapon to aid it in destroying the human race. Your analogy is still flawed in that respect.

The Four Kings are all the originals, not an upgrade. And the John Bull ect. aren't shells at all the way you suggest, they're facades, fakes. Explain to me how two much larger suits are shelled inside something much smaller ones like the example you gave.

The Shining Gundam popped out of the top torso of the Statue of Liberty. Do you really want to bark up that tree? Even if the John Bull gundam was a replica, that still wouldn't explain how the grand gundam popped out of it.

[scythedd7]

Yes, yes I would. If a blob of cancer was walking about that was nothing but cancer, I would still say it was infected the object was infected with cancer, and that makes perfect sense to me.

But the Devil Gundam didn't infect an object to exist, nor did it infect anything to create the Master Gundam. It just used it's magical DG cells to create a weapon to aid it in destroying the human race. Your analogy is still flawed in that respect.

The Four Kings are all the originals, not an upgrade. And the John Bull ect. aren't shells at all the way you suggest, they're facades, fakes. Explain to me how two much larger suits are shelled inside something much smaller ones like the example you gave.

The Shining Gundam popped out of the top torso of the Statue of Liberty. Do you really want to bark up that tree? Even if the John Bull gundam was a replica, that still wouldn't explain how the grand gundam popped out of it.

Yea it did sorta. It wasn't originally the Devil Gundam was it? It was the Ultimate Gundam. Then it went psycho and became the Devil Gundam. And it's not flawed since I don't say to be infected it needs to originally not have something. It just needs to have the thing that is the infection present. Besides, cancer isn't something that infects you from an outside source either as far as I know (you cant catch cancer), I just used it because it self-multiplies.

By the way, that's totally a red herring, and has nothing to do with this at all. Why are you bring a fallacious premise into this?

Easy. It didn't pop out of it. It was it. This is freakin G Gundam so I can't explain how this works other then my example of Octocamo, which lets its user fake the users limited size (as in width), face, texture with a lot of smoke and mirrors. There wasn't a JB husk on the ground, it just was the Grand Gundam. Like I said, its not a shell, its not something it is inside of. It IS the John Bull Gundam. The John Bull Gundam is the Grand Gundam. Think of it like those old myths of animals appearing as humans. They arent humans at all, they're a fox. Then when its exposed or needs to, it changes back into a fox. It's like that. There's no possible way to explain that scientifically.

[ShadowCell]

You keep insisting that you can't explain this stuff...and then you keep trying to explain it anyway.

Stick to one side or the other. This is getting ridiculous.

[ORegan]

Yea it did sorta. It wasn't originally the Devil Gundam was it? It was the Ultimate Gundam. Then it went psycho and became the Devil Gundam. And it's not flawed since I don't say to be infected it needs to originally not have something. It just needs to have the thing that is the infection present. Besides, cancer isn't something that infects you from an outside source either as far as I know (you cant catch cancer), I just used it because it self-multiplies.

By the way, that's totally a red herring, and has nothing to do with this at all. Why are you bring a fallacious premise into this?

It was only the Ultimate Gundam by name alone. It changing form was part of it's design. Also, I made the point of it being impossible to infect something with itself, and you're the one who went onto the cancer subject. I just pointed out problems in your analogy. That's how you debate things, by making counterpoints.

Easy. It didn't pop out of it. It was it. This is freakin G Gundam so I can't explain how this works other then my example of Octocamo, which lets its user fake the users limited size (as in width), face, texture with a lot of smoke and mirrors. There wasn't a JB husk on the ground, it just was the Grand Gundam. Like I said, its not a shell, its not something it is inside of. It IS the John Bull Gundam. The John Bull Gundam is the Grand Gundam. Think of it like those old myths of animals appearing as humans. They arent humans at all, they're a fox. Then when its exposed or needs to, it changes back into a fox. It's like that. There's no possible way to explain that scientifically.

Oh really, that's why the Shining Gundam was NEVER seen pulling that trick again right, as well as the Statue of Liberty chunks flying around during? Watch the scene again. Go to 1:55

[Mark064]

The Gundams of the Four Kings each have been infected by the DG Cells and underwent one of the DG Cells abilities which is Self-Evolution. So for example the Johnbull Gundam was infected with DG Cells and underwent Self-Evolution and became the Grand Gundam. This is the documented info on the 4.

And since someone mentioned the Shuffle Heart, the Kowloon Gundam is said to have been built from the Shuffle Heart. So there aren't any direct connections between the Shuffle Heart and the Master Gundam.

[scythedd7]

Easy. It didn't pop out of it. It was it. This is freakin G Gundam so I can't explain how this works other then my example of Octocamo, which lets its user fake the users limited size (as in width), face, texture with a lot of smoke and mirrors. There wasn't a JB husk on the ground, it just was the Grand Gundam. Like I said, its not a shell, its not something it is inside of. It IS the John Bull Gundam. The John Bull Gundam is the Grand Gundam. Think of it like those old myths of animals appearing as humans. They arent humans at all, they're a fox. Then when its exposed or needs to, it changes back into a fox. It's like that. There's no possible way to explain that scientifically.

Oh really, that's why the Shining Gundam was NEVER seen pulling that trick again right, as well as the Statue of Liberty chunks flying around during? Watch the scene again. Go to 1:55

Huh? I wasn't referring to the Shining Gundam at all....which was not one of the Four Kings and doesn't have anything to so with this. This Shining Gundam thing you brought up is the red herring I was referring too. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about and its trying to lead us off what we're talking about. It's just the Shining Gundam hiding inside of a hollow (which it is in real life...) statue. The statue can't walk around and it can't fight. What the heck are you trying to prove with this? It's fallacious. My comments are talking about the Neros, Nobel, Kowloon and John Bull Gundams and what they are and there relation to the Four Kings. Explain to me what the Shining Gundam has to do with this?

[ORegan]

Explain to me what the Shining Gundam has to do with this?

*I'm starting to delete everything I'm not replying to, since everything you just said leads to the quote above.

Gladly; you asked how larger Gundam can hide inside of smaller ones. I countered with the fact that the Shining Gundam was able to hide in the statue of liberty despite the massive differences in shape AND the fact that the Statue of liberty wasn't you know, destroyed while fitting the damn thing in there to begin with. The truth of the matter is that there is no Octocamo to disguise it, since the grand gundam didn't invisibly knock s*** down while in the John Bull gundam. Remember when Domon first saw the Nero and John Bull standing near a pillar? The pillar was fine, and if your scenerio were true, it would have broken down because the Grand Gundam and Heavenly Sword would still actually be there.

[scythedd7]

Gladly; you asked how larger Gundam can hide inside of smaller ones. I countered with the fact that the Shining Gundam was able to hide in the statue of liberty despite the massive differences in shape AND the fact that the Statue of liberty wasn't you know, destroyed while fitting the damn thing in there to begin with. The truth of the matter is that there is no Octocamo to disguise it, since the grand gundam didn't invisibly knock s*** down while in the John Bull gundam. Remember when Domon first saw the Nero and John Bull standing near a pillar? The pillar was fine, and if your scenerio were true, it would have broken down because the Grand Gundam and Heavenly Sword would still actually be there.

Thus I gave what a I thought was a better example of what I believe is going on with the shape shifting fox. *MGS spoiler*It was that which Octopus uses to turn into like the Mk. II, ect. that I was trying to allude too. shape shifting! thats the phrase I've been looking for. Also, last thing I'll say on the Shining Statue of Liberty is that the Statue of Liberty is 46 m tall compared to the Shining Gundam's 16 m so it's not an example of something larger being stuck into something smaller. Also that was obviously there for some sort of cool/hilarious factor as it was completely unnecessary and not a plot point, unlike that the neros ect were infected with DG cells and were actually something different. But Mark hit the head, as I remember that now too. The JB Gundam becomes the Grand Gundam through self-evolution (they even explain that in the animation briefly i think, no that I think about it, in a later episode), where I believe it was using some sort of shape shifting or illusion technique to keep from being identified.

[Genocide]

I agree that it wouldn't be left behind, but the Walter Gundam was never brought into Neo Japans colony was it?

No, because we see it was completely reduced to dust. You do bring up a good point, though it can be used for both arguments. Since the Grand Master Gundam clearly doesn't use the original versions of its "components", then we can assume it was created completely independent of the other machines. Therefore, we can assume that either it simply uses the Master Gundam because of its symbolic significance as one of the Four Kings and not because of its use of DG cells, or that it's there because the Devil Gundam has a "blueprint" of the Master Gundam from creating it with the said cells. Either way, like I said it's left ambiguous and ultimately, it doesn't make much of a difference to the plot whatsoever. The regeneration scene, however, is definitely evidence to the contrary since A) it wasn't spontaneous and occured only when Master Asia forced it to (unlike everything else with DG Cells), and B) the effect for it was completely different.

No I'm not overstating the Devil Gundam's intelligence. Its actually shown to be quite intelligent in its tactics before Master Asia lends it his helping hand. It comes to the conclusion humans have to be eliminated in order to save the earth.

It's stated in the show itself that this was a malfunction, so it's probably not the greatest example to use. Even Master Asia realizes the fallacy to this 'solution' eventually.

It also seems to be capable of differentiating between man and woman since it grows to epic proportions once it has the power of a woman.

The Devil Gundam itself doesn't differentiate between man or woman. It was Ulube who realized the fact and took advantage of it. It simply takes what is given, regardless of the effects.

One last point I just remembered, the director in the interviews on the G Gundam DVD explicitly states that when Domon is attacked by the 4 kings before the finals start that they are unmanned. So how could a dumb Dark Gundam take such action and command its minions?

I'm not arguing the Dark Gundam to be dumb in any way, but as Kyuzo Aoi said it's not sentient. I'll concede, however, that a pretty good display of its intelligence was when it used the Master Gundam dummy to lure Domon into a trap and when it used the Dragon Gundam dummy to attack Neo Russia. Ultimately however, these tactics were probably programmed by Master Asia since the Dark Army was shown to be dumb as bricks in any standard situation.

[Mark064]

The Devil Gundam itself doesn't differentiate between man or woman. It was Ulube who realized the fact and took advantage of it. It simply takes what is given, regardless of the effects.

Wong Yun Fat did extensive research on the Devil Gundam when it was in his hands through his extensive research he found out that a woman with her ability to give life was the most suitable pilot for the Devil Gundam. This is why he wanted Alenby to be the pilot of the Devil Gundam while Master Asia wanted Domon. When Neo Japan won the Gundam Fight and Ulube took possession of the Devil Gundam he also obtained Wong's data on the Devil Gundam which he found out that the woman was the most suitable pilot. So yes the Devil Gundam does differentiate between men and women.

[Genocide]

So yes the Devil Gundam does differentiate between men and women.

I'm well aware that a female "core" makes the Devil Gundam more powerful, but I don't recall the Devil Gundam itself specifically asking for a woman or attempting to use one, so ultimately it did just take whatever was given. Hence, the differentiation in this case isn't through intelligence, but metabolism. It's like when a doctor issues you a pill to cure an infection. Even if you take the pill and get better, that doesn't change the fact that it was medical science rather than yourself who fixed the problem.

[Gelmax]

It seems like the Devil Gundam was at least smart enough on its own - at the very least, it was certainly capable of survival, stealth, identifying strong enemies and allies, and recognizing both its capabilities and its limits. Sure, most of its traps and clever plans came from Master Asia, but the simple fact that it allied with Master Asia rather than killing or infecting him demonstrates its intelligence well enough.

[Red Comet90]

It's stated in the show itself that this was a malfunction, so it's probably not the greatest example to use. Even Master Asia realizes the fallacy to this 'solution' eventually.

Kyoji said it was a malfunction, but Master Asia states it came to that conclusion not that it was a malfunction. It can be merely passed off as an error, but at the same time it can't be since the Devil Gundam's purpose is to restore the earth. It merely came to the quickest solution possible after seeing the state earth was in and seeing what humans were capable of.

I'm not arguing the Dark Gundam to be dumb in any way, but as Kyuzo Aoi said it's not sentient. I'll concede, however, that a pretty good display of its intelligence was when it used the Master Gundam dummy to lure Domon into a trap and when it used the Dragon Gundam dummy to attack Neo Russia. Ultimately however, these tactics were probably programmed by Master Asia since the Dark Army was shown to be dumb as bricks in any standard situation.

Now that you mention that its not sentient and I see how the Devil Army functions doesn't it remind you of a hive society with the Devil Gundam as the all powerful queen? Even the sound effects used are buglike. So with that I concede the Devil Gundam isn't all that intelligent. It merely wishes to complete its purpose acting under a hive mentality which also explains why it does not seek out a new life core unit, but at the same time is capable of using what it is capable of to follow its "directive" if you wish to call it that.

[Genocide]

Kyoji said it was a malfunction, but Master Asia states it came to that conclusion not that it was a malfunction.

As awesome as Master Asia is, I'd trust the man who actually had a hand in designing the Devil Gundam more when it comes to these things. Although for the record, Master Asia also claimed it had malfunctioned before his final fight. He simply said that the malfunction had caused it to "leap forward" with its theories to come up with the idea of wipping out humanity. After his battle however, he realized that the logic behind the idea was flawed. Personally, I look at the Devil Gundam as an incredibly advanced computer, although I'd also agree that it has a very hive-mind-like behaviour and primitive methods of differentiating friend from foe. In the end however, it is still just a computer and it will persist to accomplish whatever goal is programmed into it.

[Red Comet90]

Kyoji said it was a malfunction, but Master Asia states it came to that conclusion not that it was a malfunction.

As awesome as Master Asia is, I'd trust the man who actually had a hand in designing the Devil Gundam more when it comes to these things. Although for the record, Master Asia also claimed it had malfunctioned before his final fight. He simply said that the malfunction had caused it to "leap forward" with its theories to come up with the idea of wipping out humanity. After his battle however, he realized that the logic behind the idea was flawed. Personally, I look at the Devil Gundam as an incredibly advanced computer, although I'd also agree that it has a very hive-mind-like behaviour and primitive methods of differentiating friend from foe. In the end however, it is still just a computer and it will persist to accomplish whatever goal is programmed into it.

If only the designer would have said it had a malfunction, I would not believe it since he could be covering himself and say that it "malfunctioned" but since Master Asia confirmed this himself then I have no choice but to agree with you then.