The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Mark XIII

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Post by Genocide » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:14 pm

I'm probably behind on this, but where was it stated that the GN-78-2 was 20 years old? I thought when Ribbons piloted it 10 years prior, it was still on a 'test run' of sorts.

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Post by Homeless » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:25 pm

The second generation Gundams were rolled out in 2292 AD, so the first generation Gundam would presumably be even older.
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Post by SonicSP » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:31 pm

azrael wrote:Just making a few remarks on some things.

Trans-AM data is not in Veda so Billy got no help from Ribbons. Where Billy got Trans-AM from was from Eifman's notes, probably the research they've done on the GN drives over the 4 years, observations, and Tiera's little slip of the tongue when he first met Ribbons.

IIRC, it is mentioned in Cherudim's model kit manual that the new Gundams were based around Trans-AM, or were built with Trans-AM in mind this time. This was most likely incorporated into Ptolmey II's design.

Trans-AM for Arche, although nice, isn't really effective in CQC. There's no room to maneuver in that area. At the same time, Lyle isn't exactly in a position to use it either. But Lyle's GN Pistols are much shorter than Arche's sword. If Ali want's to use the full strength of the sword, he's gonna need to swing it wide. Same with the beam sabers on the feet. Lyle needs to stay very close to keep Arche from making large movements.

I was referring to CB's scientific research data.Alot of those are stored in Veda,such as data on the Gen III and prior Gundams which are used in the development of the GNZ suits.That certainly could have helped him.Ribbons could have given him a peek.
Last edited by SonicSP on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ShadowCell » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:36 pm

If Ribbons had access to any Trans-Am material, though, he wouldn't have needed Billy to give him Trans-Am-capable units. The Trans-Am System's data was stored in the GN Drives belonging to the Ptolemy crew, and it was only revealed after Alejandro capped Aeolia and triggered the failsafe. Even Ribbons appeared surprised by it at the time.

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Post by CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:58 pm

Yeah it was referred to as a black box tech, specific to the true GN drives only, therefore only the Ptolemy crew would have had anything for the tech to go on, where as Billy did it all form scratch, aside from Eifmans research before his death.

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Post by SonicSP » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:27 am

True but he could have gotten Billy to work under him.Such material may not be obvious or out in the open.

Or it's not a matter of copying the process 100% but to simply replicate the results.The Trans-Am of the Tau Drives may work differently due to their own innovations that they've added,just like the Tau Drives replicated the GN-Drives abilty to generate GN Particles but does it in a totally different manner than the Originals,and the performance at least in terms of how much particles output rate they may generate os almost equal,though probably not average output rate though due to electrical consumption economy reasons.

Ribbons could have been trying to develop Trans-Am all this time as well but lacks a final piece or edge to complete it.He may have gotten Billy to help him finish it,regardless of how whether he thought he could have done it or not.

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Post by ShadowCell » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:40 am

Well, yeah, he obviously got Billy to do it for him, because that's why Billy was on the Celestial Being gloating about how Celestial Being would die by its own technology.

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Post by CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:47 am

SonicSP wrote:True but he could have gotten Billy to work under him.Such material may not be obvious or out in the open..
Yeah what Shadowcell said but the thing there wasn't any material to be had on it aside from what the Gundams had and Eifmans work, that was why everyone, including the meisters, was so surprised by it.

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Post by Aegis » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:03 am

SonicSP wrote: The revelation that Billy is with Ribbons actually helps us understand how he cracked the theory in the first place.First,with help from Eifman's notes.Second,his assciation with Ribbons may have allowed him access to some of Veda's data of Celestial Being's(And I'm talking about the organisation not the superweapon) scientific research.This two plus observation of the GN-Drives may have helped him uncover the secret of Trans-Am's functions.
There's just one eensy problem with that train of thought. We don't see Trans Am incorporated into ANY Innovator MS until now. At least four months and change ago, none of the MS even had that capability installed until Billy came along and did so with the Masurao. Four months and change after all that, they still didn't have Trans Am. It was only when we see Billy eventually make his way to Ribbons that we finally see Trans Am in use, and we see it in the most recent episode. You'd think that if it were the case, even the GNZ units used by the likes of Anew, Hilling, and Revive would've made use of it soon after that time skip.

Obviously Billy worked under Ribbons for some time, and it's in fact the reason why the Innovators have that ability in the first place. Add the big fact that Trans Am was made only available to CB pretty much tells you that Veda had no information on Trans Am. With that, there's nothing to glean from Veda if one were to set out to include Trans Am, which means Billy pretty much figured it out after studying Eifman's notes all this time.

And why go about how what Billy discovered was some kind of 'pseudo Trans Am' or how he used a different process? Whether the particles spew green or red, it's still Trans Am all the way through. Thinking otherwise just makes peoples' heads explode. :P

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Post by azrael » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:08 am

SonicSP wrote:Ribbons could have been trying to develop Trans-Am all this time as well but lacks a final piece or edge to complete it.He may have gotten Billy to help him finish it,regardless of how whether he thought he could have done it or not.
If Ribbons cared so much about Trans-AM, he would have tried to capture any Gundam, yet he focused on 00's Twin Drive system. And why would Ribbons care about Trans-Am when CB was dormant for 4 years. And even when they resurfaced, Ribbons was more concerned with the Twin Drive system.

I really don't see any connection between Billy figuring out Trans-AM and Ribbons helping him. Billy figured it out on his own and gave it to Ribbons as another weapon in this episode.

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Post by exxecutor000 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:50 am

azrael wrote:.... Ribbons was more concerned with the Twin Drive system.
I agree with you. Trans Am is a trump-card, but for a very limited time. Not always useful.

But the Twin Drive is a very promising one. Setsuna seems to have mastered its MS in ep22 & 23, without using much Trans AM except for its Raiser Sword mode.

Personally I don't like the 0 Raiser attachment (but I like it as an independent unit), as the original 00 Gundam is already a very stylish (especially with both the shield/katar attached). The 0 Raiser make it too bulky.
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Post by SonicSP » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:44 am

azrael wrote:
SonicSP wrote:Ribbons could have been trying to develop Trans-Am all this time as well but lacks a final piece or edge to complete it.He may have gotten Billy to help him finish it,regardless of how whether he thought he could have done it or not.
If Ribbons cared so much about Trans-AM, he would have tried to capture any Gundam, yet he focused on 00's Twin Drive system. And why would Ribbons care about Trans-Am when CB was dormant for 4 years. And even when they resurfaced, Ribbons was more concerned with the Twin Drive system.

I really don't see any connection between Billy figuring out Trans-AM and Ribbons helping him. Billy figured it out on his own and gave it to Ribbons as another weapon in this episode.
Even if the exact data on Trans-Am or how it works wasn't inside Veda,having CB's research data all those years ago would have been useful,assuming they don't have that already.Some data about the basics of the Originals Drives may prove useful about developing or copying Trans-Am this plus his own observations plus Eifman's observation notes would have certainly aided him.We really don't know how long Billy has known Ribbons exactly.He could have known Ribbons the moment he started working at A-LAWS.

As for why it wasn't integrated,Masuruo could have been an experiment for it,a test,even it didn't last that long in 16.It's possible that the four month timeskip,Billy made it even more reliable and used as a prototype for the improvement,but since it only a prototype,it may had took a while to fix this.

And Masuruo Susano,the first suit we've seen with the improved Trans-Am only appeared in 21(Old Masuruo still existed in 19),it's possible that only by then has Billy perfected the technology(Maybe even further than what he said earlier in 18).And only after then did the Innovators are confident in mass-producing it,and integrating the process into the suits.In other words,maybe they want one that's on par with CB's,anything that lower or alot more inefficent like the one in 16 would have not been very helpful,at least not to be mass-produced.
CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST wrote:
SonicSP wrote:True but he could have gotten Billy to work under him.Such material may not be obvious or out in the open..
Yeah what Shadowcell said but the thing there wasn't any material to be had on it aside from what the Gundams had and Eifmans work, that was why everyone, including the meisters, was so surprised by it.
I wonder about that as well.You'd think that they would have seen it when they tried to save Setsuna,and if they didn't,Setsuna could have told them in four months but either he didn't or they knew and......they were just so surprised to see it the first time.
Last edited by SonicSP on Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by T.V. » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:00 am

azrael wrote:I really don't see any connection between Billy figuring out Trans-AM and Ribbons helping him. Billy figured it out on his own and gave it to Ribbons as another weapon in this episode.
The situation might be the reverse, I believe.
I get that Billy was recruted by Ribbons only after he cracked the TRANS AM puzzle.
His work on getting TRANS AM to work on the Masurao caused Ribbons to take notice and enlist his aid.
It's not that different from how Ribbons exploited Louise's usefullness sofar.

I reckon Billy cracked TRANS AM based on Eifmann's notes on how the original GN Drives (and GN particles) function (and not the Taus) and worked out from that what's needed for a GN[T] Drive to produce a similar output increasing effect.
Perhaps he already did some work on elaborating Eifmann's theory in the 4 years prior, but Sumeragi's betrayal made him shift gears and work relentlessly on it, when enlisted into A-LAWS.

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Post by SonicSP » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:13 am

Aegis wrote:
SonicSP wrote: The revelation that Billy is with Ribbons actually helps us understand how he cracked the theory in the first place.First,with help from Eifman's notes.Second,his assciation with Ribbons may have allowed him access to some of Veda's data of Celestial Being's(And I'm talking about the organisation not the superweapon) scientific research.This two plus observation of the GN-Drives may have helped him uncover the secret of Trans-Am's functions.
There's just one eensy problem with that train of thought. We don't see Trans Am incorporated into ANY Innovator MS until now. At least four months and change ago, none of the MS even had that capability installed until Billy came along and did so with the Masurao. Four months and change after all that, they still didn't have Trans Am. It was only when we see Billy eventually make his way to Ribbons that we finally see Trans Am in use, and we see it in the most recent episode. You'd think that if it were the case, even the GNZ units used by the likes of Anew, Hilling, and Revive would've made use of it soon after that time skip.

Obviously Billy worked under Ribbons for some time, and it's in fact the reason why the Innovators have that ability in the first place. Add the big fact that Trans Am was made only available to CB pretty much tells you that Veda had no information on Trans Am. With that, there's nothing to glean from Veda if one were to set out to include Trans Am, which means Billy pretty much figured it out after studying Eifman's notes all this time.

And why go about how what Billy discovered was some kind of 'pseudo Trans Am' or how he used a different process? Whether the particles spew green or red, it's still Trans Am all the way through. Thinking otherwise just makes peoples' heads explode. :P

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Post by Gadget » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:41 am

T.V. wrote:[
I get that Billy was recruted by Ribbons only after he cracked the TRANS AM puzzle.
His work on getting TRANS AM to work on the Masurao caused Ribbons to take notice and enlist his aid.
It's not that different from how Ribbons exploited Louise's usefullness sofar.
Wellll... I'm not really sure. Billy got 4 years to figure out Trans-AM. But maybe he got slack because
1. CB was thought to be gone.
2. He was shacking with a drunk girl. :twisted:
3. There is not urgency.
4. His boyfriend (Graham) was not around to pester him for a 'bigger sword, or faster Flagg.

Remember the ball. It's one of the few public appearance by Ribbons. He could be trying to recruit Billy, the 'commander's son', at that time. By the time he joined Kati in the A-Laws carrier, he was full of hate and pride.

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Post by SonicSP » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:04 am

T.V. wrote:
azrael wrote:I really don't see any connection between Billy figuring out Trans-AM and Ribbons helping him. Billy figured it out on his own and gave it to Ribbons as another weapon in this episode.
The situation might be the reverse, I believe.
I get that Billy was recruted by Ribbons only after he cracked the TRANS AM puzzle.
His work on getting TRANS AM to work on the Masurao caused Ribbons to take notice and enlist his aid.
It's not that different from how Ribbons exploited Louise's usefullness sofar.

I reckon Billy cracked TRANS AM based on Eifmann's notes on how the original GN Drives (and GN particles) function (and not the Taus) and worked out from that what's needed for a GN[T] Drive to produce a similar output increasing effect.
Perhaps he already did some work on elaborating Eifmann's theory in the 4 years prior, but Sumeragi's betrayal made him shift gears and work relentlessly on it, when enlisted into A-LAWS.
That's a good scenario there.I might say


[OffTopic]

So...anybody has trouble posting,there seems to be alot of error in the last day or so.

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Post by jtrainor » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:29 pm

There is no evidence whatosever that Ribbons helped Billy develop Trans-Am, and furthermore, there is actually evidence to the contrary (in the form of the forementioned notes thing). I don't see why people bring this up.

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Post by Aegis » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:48 pm

SonicSP wrote: Even if the exact data on Trans-Am or how it works wasn't inside Veda,having CB's research data all those years ago would have been useful,assuming they don't have that already.Some data about the basics of the Originals Drives may prove useful about developing or copying Trans-Am this plus his own observations plus Eifman's observation notes would have certainly aided him.We really don't know how long Billy has known Ribbons exactly.He could have known Ribbons the moment he started working at A-LAWS.
A couple of problems with that. Trans Am was made specifically a black box item; you'd think that someone by now would've figured out Trans Am given the amount of data and access the rest of the world now have. As such, going simply by 'CB research' through Veda wouldn't have gleaned anything.

There's also something else I question. Tau Drives are simply true drives without the TD Blanket. Trans Am simply gushes GN Particles at an exponential rate. What would looking at data on the original drives do if Trans Am is a separate item altogether?
As for why it wasn't integrated,Masuruo could have been an experiment for it,a test,even it didn't last that long in 16.It's possible that the four month timeskip,Billy made it even more reliable and used as a prototype for the improvement,but since it only a prototype,it may had took a while to fix this.
Whether the model was a test unit or not is irrelevant. The point being, Billy couldn't have needed help from Ribbons since he was the one who successfully cracked the Trans Am code while everyone else, including Ribbons, did not. This is made THAT much more apparent after the four month time skip when it was still only limited to the Masurao, and that said implementation only happened NOW.

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Post by Draco Starcloud » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Meteoid wrote:Why though? Why not just make a real missile with a GN Drive stuck on the end. It'd be cheaper and they could pack more explosives into their instead of a cockpit and cameras and servos to move the arms.
The God Complex idea mentioned earlier is a good idea. My thought is that having a mass-produced Innovator pilot might make it more of a smart missile. The animation really doesn't reflect this possibility, but a piloted missile would probably be more likely to evade enemies and hit the target.

The way the Gundam 00 seemed to react to Setsuna when he first piloted it makes me think also that maybe a biological pilot is needed for the Trans-AM reaction as part of the "Innovation" process.
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Post by Kenji » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:37 pm

Right, the clones' ability to evade and track enemies is what makes the Gagas useful as smart missiles. Now that I think of it, was there ever a countermeasure implemented to the GN property of disrupting EM signals? Dumb missiles thrown out en masse is a pretty common feature of Gundam, so I guess it'd be easy to overlook, but if no countermeasure has been implemented, that leaves either Fangs or the mass-produced Divine Stabities to fill the gap.
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