Thoughts on MS-based pirate forces (Conjecture-only)

[Terrace]

With the numerous gaps between UC Gundam conflicts (with the requisite MS improvements that go along with it), how likely do you think that actual pirate groups armed with Mobile Suits would be? In addition, how would such a group operate? Would they have a hard time keeping modern Suits in good repair, and have to rely on older models, due to (I presume) somewhat simpler mechanics? What Mobile Suits would they favor in various eras?

think about it...

[Kenji]

Well, if mobile suits are anywhere near as useful as they're cracked up to be, so much that a squad can turn the tide of battle and fleets from 0080 onward are basically structured around them... then yes, pirates likely have mobile suits.

I imagine there are quite a few pirate groups, too, since space is essentially unpoliceable to the point where powerful militias spring up like weeds in established colony groups, never mind the used-up resource satellites that have been forgotten in the Federal bureaucracy. This would especially be the case since the economy was shot in the One Year War and likely never recovered in the century since, leading many young men and women to look at organized crime as a glamorous thing.

As for the MS themselves, older models are cheaper and parts for them are more readily available. I think we can both rule out the possibility of them getting their hands on a high-spec Anaheim prototype: after one or two battles, it'd either be unusable or be repaired with such inferior parts that its specs are greatly reduced.

The Delaz Fleet and Oldsmobile Army are pretty good pirate templates, since they use old and jerry-rigged equipment, tending more to the easy-to-repair stuff. The Crossbone Vanguard isn't a good example, because it's a political movement disguised as pirates.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Pirates only really "work" under very special conditions. The golden age of piracy happened because there were a large number of powers (basically all of western Europe) all trying to control the same region (the Americas in general and the Caribbean specifically) and didn't have enough naval power to do it on their own, so they issued "letters of marque" -- basically government permission to attack (and loot) enemies of the nation. Most pirates were originally "privateers" (privately funded ships that had been issed letters of marque) that went to full-fledged piracy after either they got greedy enough to attack their own nation's allies or their nation signed peace agreements with their enemies but the privateers kept attacking them anyway.

What you need for pirates to be viable is a large number of powers fighting over an area where none of them have a very large amount of military force. In UC Gundam, this generally doesn't happen: you have the Earth Federation and its enemy du jour and that's about it. In this case, anyone who started hijacking ships would be hunted down and killed by either the Earth Federation or its currently-acting enemy in pretty short order. The only exception to this might be around the era of Victory Gundam, where the Earth Federation's power has waned significantly and each Side is acting as a de facto independent nation.

[Terrace]

Kirby, you're right. I hadn't considered the political climates between the wars. However, I think that one or two MS-armed pirate groups at a time would have always existed at least since 0083, they just would have ballooned into a real problem around Victory Gundam.

But I think that Kenji's got a good point too. There would be lots of resource satellites that pirate groups could use as secret bases, and in the various wars the two sides are probably too busy dealing with each other to bother with chasing pirates. That would mean time lost that could be used fighting the enemy. Not to mention that there would likely be many disgruntled ex-pilots around when each war ends, particularly if the government is broke and can't give them their pay. Also, consider that there will always be people who would rather steal what they need to survive rather that earn it. There would have likely been at least some psychopaths among the pilot ranks who got thrown out when "Insert Conflict Name Here" ended and they didn't need everyone they could get into a cockpit.

[Random Zaku Pilot]

I don't remember where I heard it was it in the anime or something else, but I heard mentioning that Cima Fleet became a Pirate Fleet after the OYW and before joining Delaz. Not sure if I am right or not.

But I say pirating existed with the load of Zeke Remnants floating around attacking Federal ship and other minor terrorist activities. I mean with the load of debris recovery teams out in space and those who loot the old battlefields for anything salvageable seem like prime targets and easy ones for Pirates.

[Kenji]

Except, Kirby, we're not talking about a new golden age of piracy, but just piracy. Really, that's just large-scale armed robbery, and you really don't need special conditions to have that floating around. Piracy's been a reality throughout history, we just tend to think of the "yo-ho-ho" variety out of the Carribean.

In the case of space, piracy's an inevitable thing because the size of fleet that the Federation would need to effectively police the Earth Sphere is unbuildable, and the Federation has demonstrated multiple times that what happens to its citizenry really isn't its business.

And, yeah, I agree that the Zeon Remnants are definitely a wellspring of new pirate groups.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Modern piracy exists almost entirely in areas where the conditions I mentioned exist; places where a large number of foreign powers have interests but not overwhelming military force. The two biggest would be Somalia (conveniently located en route the the Suez Canal), and southeast Asia (with its own strait and correspondingly high shipping density). Neither of these regions are areas where there's any great naval power, but large amounts of wealth to be stolen (primarily food aid in Somalia's case; an obscene amount of international shipping in southeast Asia's).

Where can you say the same thing in UC Gundam? Remember that, in Earth orbit, you're never more than a week away from anywhere. And, post-OYW with the Earth Federation maintaining bases both near Luna and on Luna II, that cuts maximum travel time down to just three days. Would you want to operate a pirate base somewhere that was a max of three day's travel from a major military base?

Here's a better question: where would they stay in the first place? Pirates need a base of operations -- someplace they can get supplies and sell their swag. Who's going to trade with them? Damn near everything in UC Gundam is owned by the Earth Federation, and the small amount that isn't is owned by the Republic of Zeon, which is doing its damnedest to stay on the Federation's good side; I can't see them harboring pirates.

You mention the Zeon remnants. It's a valid point, but the problem is that they're not pirates. They're a military force. Though they may no longer be the legitimate armed forces of a sovereign nation, they started as one, which gives them equipment and training far, far more advanced than any civilian pilots would have access to. They're not in it for the money, either -- which is pretty much the definition of a pirate -- so I don't really think that they would count as pirates in the way Terrace is talking about.

[Xanadu]

sorry for stupid question but isn't that what that crossbone Gundam is? Sorry if i'm worng as usual the ms I've seen from it screams Pirate.

[ShadowCell]

They fight the Jupiter Empire by means of attacking freighters, which are secretly carrying weapons like poison gas from the Earth Sphere to Jupiter; then they move on to fighting the Jupiter Empire directly.

But they aren't after money, they're about stopping the Jupiter Empire from carrying out its plans.

[Xanadu]

They fight the Jupiter Empire by means of attacking freighters, which are secretly carrying weapons like poison gas from the Earth Sphere to Jupiter; then they move on to fighting the Jupiter Empire directly.

But they aren't after money, they're about stopping the Jupiter Empire from carrying out its plans.

Oh. Sorry.
Geez, Sunrise sure does like using Jupiter in their plots, even though it ended up having hardly anything to do with Geass...

[crashlegacy14]

well pirates could operate in the space lanes leading to jupiter, since it is the major source oh helium-2 or whatever.
the afoementioned abandoned resorce satalites would be a chief place for the near earth variety to, and there's bound to be a black market that would trade said items to say...terriorists.

[Destroy Gundam]

Raiding those lines would bring a lot of heat from the EFF on them. Helium 3 is a vital resource, and interrupting the supply lines would attract a lot of attention from the Federation and any other party that uses helium 3.

[crashlegacy14]

Not if it's done in a compment maner that removes the largest evidence, the ship and it's personel.

besides, we're talking about a much larger area that would have to be covered by fed forces to track down said pirates, expecialy when you add the possiblity of hiding among the planets' moons, the asteroid belt or even jupitier's rings.

Half decent intell would allow pirates to keep ahead of athourity. and I'd expect that the acutal harvesting and shiping of the resources would be carried out by more thne a single company.

[ShadowCell]

Helium-3 was so important to the Earth Sphere that the Federation and Zeon, intractable enemies that they were, agreed to leave the shipments alone--and they stuck to it. If helium-3 supplies were threatened by pirates, then the Earth Federation (at least before Victory or so) would waste no time or expense in annihilating them. Even as late as the UC 0120s, the Federation is still willing and able to send an effective task force as far away as Mars--and that was to crush a bunch of geriatric Zeons who stole a Gundam. A threat to the helium-3 supply, on which everybody depends, would bring a much harsher response.

[CheesyErwin]

Not if it's done in a compment maner that removes the largest evidence, the ship and it's personel.

besides, we're talking about a much larger area that would have to be covered by fed forces to track down said pirates, expecialy when you add the possiblity of hiding among the planets' moons, the asteroid belt or even jupitier's rings.

Half decent intell would allow pirates to keep ahead of athourity. and I'd expect that the acutal harvesting and shiping of the resources would be carried out by more thne a single company.

The harvesting and shippment of Helium-3 seemed to be carried out solely by the Jupiter Energy Fleet, IIRC.

[Terrace]

Which I hardly consider a Company, Cheesy.

[Nowhere Man]

Which I hardly consider a Company, Cheesy.

Erm, last I checked, the Jupiter Fleet was a company, in the sense that it's a commercial business. It's not nationalized, and it has a monopoly on helium-3 distribution. And I doubt it's doing it for giggles.

Regardless, however, the Earth Federation would still move in rapidly on anyone who raids the Jupiter Fleet... like the Zeon remnants on Mars in Mobile Suit Gundam F90, for instance.

On the flip side, though, I have to wonder why the Earth Federation didn't take the Crossbone Vanguard more seriously considering that it captured the Thousandth Jupiter.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I personally think that the best example of pirates during the Universal Century is the pirate band of Marie Alberta, from Ecole du Ciel.

For once they use a Pazock ship, a ship class that is still in service by 0087 by the Republic of Zeon, and since the original model is an unarmed spaceship, it doesn't have much trouble not catching the attention of the Federation (until the arrival of a certain new member, that is).

On the inside, the ship is armed to the teeth with almost 20 dual barrel megaparticle cannon turrets concealed, for taking out enemy warships in a single barrage. Despite the space this equipment takes, it still capable carrying at least 16 MS (a few months ago someone brought some tables with information of the Zeon fleet during the battle of Loum, which indicated that a standard Pazock can carry about 60 Zakus).

As for the focus of your thread, MS's of pirates, they mainly used MS-06F, at least a dozen of them, since Zaku spare parts are easy to come around, in fact many of their other MS, which include two MS-09R, one MS-14A and a YMS-18, end up using Zaku arms and shoulders for replacements when they get damaged. Along the course of the story they also get a MS-06F2.

As a side note, I will just add that advanced MS seem to usually suffer from lack of maintanance and parts, as it seems to be implied in the case of the MS-09R-2(has inferior specs compared to the original unit from 0080) and MS-14F(it's beam rifle and zulu shield with ABC, is usually replaced with a 90mm Zaku machinegun and a Zaku shield) on Stardust Memories, therefore making the basic Zaku II, (which IIRC is still considered the most mass produced MS of UC) the best unit for them with plenty of spare parts and ease of maintenance.

Another interesting issue is that the pirate leader tends to scold her subordinates when they waste ammo, and on some battles has her Rick Dom pilots use only Zaku Machineguns instead of their Giant Bazookas, since machinegun ammo is cheaper and easier to come by. Marie herself only uses her Gelgoog's beam rifle when absolutely necessary, and usually takes off carrying only her beam naginata.

But with MS from Zeta showing up more often as the story progresses, they end up capturing at least one RMS-117 and a RMS-106. The Hi-zack is even used by them in combat. And it might be pure speculation, but it is implied that other MS were captured and that their pilots were captured as well, and they were eventually transferred to the AEUG. So it could be possible that some of the RGM-79R that the AEUG has were captured by these pirates.

If you think about it, by this time the AEUG makes the perfect black market they need to get goods and sell their loot behind the Federation's back.

Edit: fixed a typo

[J-Lead]

On the flip side, though, I have to wonder why the Earth Federation didn't take the Crossbone Vanguard more seriously considering that it captured the Thousandth Jupiter.

Well, the Jupiter Empire did have a hand in the Crossbone uprising, or so it is implied, and the captain of the Thousanth Jupiter did pledge his cooperation (and I wouldn't be surprised if "no distress signals" was part of the ground rules.) There's a good chance the Federation didn't even know about it's capture at that point.

[Nowhere Man]

On the flip side, though, I have to wonder why the Earth Federation didn't take the Crossbone Vanguard more seriously considering that it captured the Thousandth Jupiter.

Well, the Jupiter Empire did have a hand in the Crossbone uprising, or so it is implied...

Really? I thought that they were behind the Zanscare Empire, but I don't know about the Crossbone Vanguard.

... and the captain of the Thousanth Jupiter did pledge his cooperation (and I wouldn't be surprised if "no distress signals" was part of the ground rules.) There's a good chance the Federation didn't even know about it's capture at that point.

True. You can't react to what you don't know happened.

Although, when the Thousandth Jupiter didn't reach its destination, they might have put two and two together.