The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Version 12

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
Locked
User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Version 12

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:34 pm

For all your Gundam 00 mecha needs. Please tag spoilers, don't post random crap with no backing or source, and refrain from being jerks.
pd771 wrote:
Duraham wrote:sigh, I'll illustrate my question in a simpler manner for those who don't want to read my post carefully.



linear rifle shot -> rod spins and stops, deflects incoming shot.
beam shots -> rod spins and stops, deflects incoming shot.
machinegun burst -> rod spins non-stop, eventually deflects all shots.
missiles -> rod spins non-stop, absorbs most damage from blast
virtue BIG BEAMU BLASTO!!! -> [question]rod does what?[/question]

I'm guessing jack s%*t. It wasn't designed with large beam weapons in mind. It was designed to take on the solid projectiles of AEU/HRL mobile suits. The reason for it being a rod rather than a shield is most likely for its flight mode, so it would be light and more aerodynamic. The fact is nothing like Virtue's shot existed before then so they didn't plan for them.
Last edited by ShadowCell on Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EinhanderAstraeaMk.I
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:40 pm
Location: Right behind you...

Re: The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Version 12

Post by EinhanderAstraeaMk.I » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:28 pm

Duraham wrote:sigh, I'll illustrate my question in a simpler manner for those who don't want to read my post carefully.

linear rifle shot -> rod spins and stops, deflects incoming shot.
beam shots -> rod spins and stops, deflects incoming shot.
machinegun burst -> rod spins non-stop, eventually deflects all shots.
missiles -> rod spins non-stop, absorbs most damage from blast
virtue BIG BEAMU BLASTO!!! -> [question]rod does what?[/question]
I'll put it this way:
Take a two-bladed fan and spin it at a high speed. Now aim a firehose at it, and let the water loose. No matter how fast that fan was spinning, the water will still make it through (and even bypass the fan's coverage, depending on the width of the water jet).

Now think of the BFG Beam like the water, and the fan as the Flag/Enact Defense Rod. No matter how fast it spins, the beam would still get through. Now, include the heat level of the beam, and that will only wear the fan down faster (melt) as well as dissolve what's beyond the fan's edges (the rest of the MS).
The source of my Gundam 00 information and ideas? Here.
My Innovator names: Eternal Eternity, Stupid Vexation, and Pilot Rival.

User avatar
reeoyuy
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:28 am
Location: HRL southern area, West Java
Contact:

Post by reeoyuy » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Well, if you really want to know "rod does what?", onboard computer that control the rod might ask the same question "what should I do?".
There's no data for huge beam blast, most probably the rod will idling while the computer calculating what should be done, before getting vaporized.
Or, maybe, just my idea, it calculate heat and pressure from incoming attack and react accordingly with the closest thing it can recognize.
Flamethrower, maybe?

User avatar
Recon 5
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Wouldn't you love to know...

Re: The Official Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Version 12

Post by Recon 5 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:15 pm

EinhanderAstraeaMk.I wrote:Now, include the heat level of the beam, and that will only wear the fan down faster (melt) as well as dissolve what's beyond the fan's edges (the rest of the MS).
I think really, really fast would be a better term here as MS caught in the middle of large beams tend to go all at once in Gundam.
Yay for functional signatures!

THE OFFICIAL SAJI FANCLUB. PLEASE POST YOUR SAJI SPECULATIONS HERE

abrahamsen0
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:36 pm

Post by abrahamsen0 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:27 pm

If the rod spins about 2x faster than what the shot is traveling then it will probably block the shot without anything passing through. As for the Virtue shot I'd say it needs a hell of alot bigger rod. Anyway the rod really wasn't made to block beam weapons in the first place & wears down pretty fast.

But the whole idea of the Defense Rod works you just need it spinning at very high rates & spinning faster than what the projectile is traveling.

That whole thing about the water & fan really isn't a good example.

User avatar
SNT1
Posts: 3752
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:29 am

Post by SNT1 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:38 pm

^Doesn't matter, Virtue's beam is a solid stream of fire.

Even then, Dynames' GN pistols manages to warp the rod (even if it was blocked), so Virtue's [basuuto modo] GN Bazooka will tear through defense rods of any size---don't know how this is an issue.
(>-.-)>-} >>---> \(x.x)/

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Post by toysdream » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:09 pm

Maybe this is just my own interpretation, but I think the original questioner may just have been wondering what kind of futile pre-programmed gesture the defense rod would make in response to the incoming beam. Perhaps it would just spin helplessly like a propellor in the final instant before the beam hits. :-)

-- Mark

User avatar
Red XIV
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:02 pm

Post by Red XIV » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:33 pm

The on-board computer would probably interpret the blast as equivalent to a massive stream of bullets, and spin the defense rod as fast as possible.
"I think most of us were lead astray via the Hazel family tree that hinted the TR-6 came from the Hazels...when in fact it's an amalgam of all TTT mecha...and a rabbit." - Deus EpS Machina

User avatar
NIGHTSHADOW99
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:42 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Post by NIGHTSHADOW99 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:42 pm

I forgot to add where does it go in flight mode?
I've told you......to treat them delicately, as if they were a virgin or a feather!

User avatar
Red XIV
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:02 pm

Post by Red XIV » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:48 pm

It doesn't go anywhere. It stays on the left arm. Or the right arm in Graham's case.
"I think most of us were lead astray via the Hazel family tree that hinted the TR-6 came from the Hazels...when in fact it's an amalgam of all TTT mecha...and a rabbit." - Deus EpS Machina

User avatar
Areku
Posts: 1223
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am

Post by Areku » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:53 pm

Red XIV wrote:It doesn't go anywhere. It stays on the left arm. Or the right arm in Graham's case.
That's the obvious answer, but...

And Nev-Er-Mind, in S1 ep 12 Graham's rod can clearly be seen on the right arm in flight mode, and we do know he transforms and uses it normally in his duel with Lockon immediately afterward.

User avatar
NIGHTSHADOW99
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:42 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Post by NIGHTSHADOW99 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:27 pm

Well...in some episode the defense rod isn't there in flight mode, but when the flag or enact transforms it's there, even in the MAHG mecha pages shows it without it even though I know those pages aren't offical 00 sources.
I've told you......to treat them delicately, as if they were a virgin or a feather!

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Post by toysdream » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:39 pm

According to the HG Union Flag kit manual, the defense rod isn't carried on every mission: "Since it is intended for use in humanoid form, it is not installed during strictly aerial missions." But if it suddenly appears as the machine changes into mobile suit form, that would have to be an animation error. :-)

-- Mark

WingZero84
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:26 am
Location: Who Knows?

Post by WingZero84 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:39 pm

toysdream wrote:Maybe this is just my own interpretation, but I think the original questioner may just have been wondering what kind of futile pre-programmed gesture the defense rod would make in response to the incoming beam. Perhaps it would just spin helplessly like a propellor in the final instant before the beam hits. :-)

-- Mark
I think I have an answer for that. What the rods programming would say to virtue's gigantic beam is: "Ah [email protected]".
"Sorry I'm late, I got lost on the road of life"

Zeta = Gundam's Batman Begins?
Victory = Gundam's The Dark Knight?

User avatar
Brave Fencer Kirby
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:22 pm

While we're on the subject, what the hell is the point of the defense rod? Wouldn't it be a lot better, overall, to simply mount a full shield?

Consider that the defense rod has to have a) the rod itself, which has to be at least as tough (usually meaning "dense") as a regular shield would be, and probably moreso due to the fact that any damage it takes is going to be concentrated on a smaller area because of the rod's smaller surface area compared to a standard shield, b) the machinery for spinning the thing around, which has to be done at both high speed and great precision. This increases the weight of the system not-insignificantly and increases the complexity of it exponentially. One of the biggest advantages of a shield is that it's ridiculously easy to produce and maintain; they're just slabs of armor material, they have no electronics or moving parts whatsoever. Not so with the defense rod, which brings us to c) the sensor suite that detects incoming projectiles with enough accuracy and speed to allow the defense rod to rotate and block it. This is presumably some kind of radar or something, because I can't imagine an optical system capable of picking out a projectile with that amount of speed and accuracy in combat conditions. Again, this results in a significant increase in mass and a huge increase in complexity of the system.

So, what do they get in exchange for this? A slightly lower mass? A more aerodynamic profile when in flight mode? I'm seriously asking here, it's not a rhetorical question. The whole thing strikes me as a tremendously terrible idea. What is the supposed benefit of the whole system?
Fighting evil so you don't have to!

User avatar
Red XIV
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:02 pm

Post by Red XIV » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:47 pm

Flying isn't the easiest thing to make a machine the size of an Abrams tank do. A Flag weighs almost twice as much as an F-22 Raptor, for example, yet presumably can fly much faster and sustain more intense manuevers. Or at least, given that such mobile suits have made conventional fighters obsolete in the 24th century, one would assume that's the case. When you've got those very difficult design requirements to meet, every bit of weight savings and/or streamlining you can manage is going to be important.

Realistically, though, it was so they could do something more unique that the conventional shields that every other Gundam series has used. After all, my idea doesn't explain why the Hellion and Realdo (which I think I remember needing external assistance to transform, meaning they'd probably never have the rods mounted in flight mode) wouldn't use conventional shields.
"I think most of us were lead astray via the Hazel family tree that hinted the TR-6 came from the Hazels...when in fact it's an amalgam of all TTT mecha...and a rabbit." - Deus EpS Machina

User avatar
pd771
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:40 am
Location: Perpetually in a GM Trainer
Contact:

Post by pd771 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:51 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:While we're on the subject, what the hell is the point of the defense rod? Wouldn't it be a lot better, overall, to simply mount a full shield?

Consider that the defense rod has to have a) the rod itself, which has to be at least as tough (usually meaning "dense") as a regular shield would be, and probably moreso due to the fact that any damage it takes is going to be concentrated on a smaller area because of the rod's smaller surface area compared to a standard shield, b) the machinery for spinning the thing around, which has to be done at both high speed and great precision. This increases the weight of the system not-insignificantly and increases the complexity of it exponentially. One of the biggest advantages of a shield is that it's ridiculously easy to produce and maintain; they're just slabs of armor material, they have no electronics or moving parts whatsoever. Not so with the defense rod, which brings us to c) the sensor suite that detects incoming projectiles with enough accuracy and speed to allow the defense rod to rotate and block it. This is presumably some kind of radar or something, because I can't imagine an optical system capable of picking out a projectile with that amount of speed and accuracy in combat conditions. Again, this results in a significant increase in mass and a huge increase in complexity of the system.

So, what do they get in exchange for this? A slightly lower mass? A more aerodynamic profile when in flight mode? I'm seriously asking here, it's not a rhetorical question. The whole thing strikes me as a tremendously terrible idea. What is the supposed benefit of the whole system?

With a full shield, it would seem to ruin the aerodynamic form. Balance is much more important than anything. And I'm guessing the weight difference is a little more than you think it would be, like a good 5-10 tons if it's solid material.

Edit:
Red XIV wrote: After all, my idea doesn't explain why the Hellion and Realdo (which I think I remember needing external assistance to transform, meaning they'd probably never have the rods mounted in flight mode) wouldn't use conventional shields.
Well, if they are designed to be fast suits meant more for hit and run attacks rather than up close range mobile suit combat, protection may be sacrificed for speed. It's the combat philosophy of a fighter jet to a tank (Tieren obviously)
Last edited by pd771 on Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Amuro: Sorry, Lalah, I... I still have a place I can come home to. And I could never be happier. I'm sure you understand. We can be together anytime we want, Lalah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeY9RgWhmXs

Gelmax
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:51 pm

Post by Gelmax » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:08 am

Even ignoring the obvious major issues a sizable shield would cause in flight mode, the Flag is not particularly strong or sturdy to begin with - it's a machine that is quite clearly intended to dodge hits, not take them, but because of that it only really has to worry about occasional machinegun fire (which the defense rod is more than sufficient to block) because it's too agile to be hit by bigger guns. Without major changes to the Flag's design, a full shield would be larger than (and almost as thick as!) the torso, with a corresponding major impact on all aspects of the machine's mobility, which contradicts the point.

I'd imagine the defense rod helps with balance, too - the rifle and defense rod are around the same size, probably similar weights, and mounted/held on opposite arms.

User avatar
Recon 5
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Wouldn't you love to know...

Post by Recon 5 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:24 am

Have a look at the way the early aerial MS are folded in flight mode. A shield anything close to the width we see on other series' MS would obstruct transformation and the landing gears would have to be extended as well to accommodate the extra width of the object on the arm. Make the shield narrow enough to fit on the flight mode and you sacrifice at least half the coverage of a more conventional design when the MS fights normally.

Remember that with the rudimentary transformation technology it may be exceedingly difficult to coordinate the removal of the shield from a different hardpoint during the transformation, so it must stay attached to the same part of the MS all the time.

The solution? Compensate for the lack of coverage by moving the "shield" to block the closest threat. The fact that early MS probably faced relatively low velocity solid and high explosive shells helps.
Yay for functional signatures!

THE OFFICIAL SAJI FANCLUB. PLEASE POST YOUR SAJI SPECULATIONS HERE


Locked