Neo Zeon Funnels

[Genocide]

While rewatching CCA, I noticed that all of Neo Zeon's funnel-type weapons (Sazabi, Alpha Azeiru, and Jagd Doga) fire what appears to be a blue laser rather than a mega partical beam. Even in Evolve 5, Quess 'drills away' at the Fin Funnel Barrier using her own funnels. Are these weapons infact equipped with lasers, not mega partical beams? I just find it a bit odd that they deviate so much from standard beam weapons in the animation.

[toysdream]

If I recall correctly, the CCA novels actually do describe these weapons as lasers. But as far as the animation and all the merchandising is concerned, they're all supposed to be mega particle cannons.

-- Mark

[Genocide]

If I recall correctly, the CCA novels actually do describe these weapons as lasers. But as far as the animation and all the merchandising is concerned, they're all supposed to be mega particle cannons.

-- Mark

Would there be any siginificant advantage in having them as laser weapons; stronger, consume less energy, or simply travel faster than standard beams? I know that lasers in general aren't used very often in UC, although again in CCA, near the start we see colonies firing lasers at Fifth Luna.

[Kenji]

Well, one advantage mega particle cannons have that is usually ignored aside from Victory and the novels is a form of splash damage. Even near misses can kill the pilot or render parts of the mobile suit useless. Lasers wouldn't have this, but assuming they're strong enough to be weaponized, they would exert more destructive force at the point they're focused on than a mega particle beam, which just bombards the target with haphazardly-focused high-velocity particles (basically, a radiation gun).

So, if the designers of laser-based funnels prioritized precision over net destruction, then they made a good choice. Perhaps this was a measure to reduce friendly fire, since the Neo Zeon fleet only had eighty-something active mobile suits?

[Seraphic]

I always thought they were lasers, from the looks of them, and from stuff I have read.

Then I saw a Jegan block a shot from a funnel with its shield in CCA.

"Now how the hell....?"

It's nice to see someone not be instantly pwned by a newtype weapon but.... Laser defenses on grunt shields? From the way it splashed off the shield though, it looked more like a beam. It's hard to say, just from appearances. -_-;

[Wingnut]

I always thought they were lasers, from the looks of them, and from stuff I have read.

Then I saw a Jegan block a shot from a funnel with its shield in CCA.

"Now how the hell....?"

It's nice to see someone not be instantly pwned by a newtype weapon but.... Laser defenses on grunt shields? From the way it splashed off the shield though, it looked more like a beam. It's hard to say, just from appearances. -_-;

IIRC that was one of the ones that came out of Luna II when that happened. They could have experimental sorts of anti-beam defenses on the shield that they were testing.

[Toxicity]

I have a question related to the topic: Why is it that you never see any of the Neo Zeon funnels get off more than 2 or 3 shots? And if they do have such short life spans, how come the MS they are operating from never recover and recharge them? It seems like the NZ newtype MS have to be given a full resupply of funnels after every skirmish.

[Sleepneeded127]

I have a question related to the topic: Why is it that you never see any of the Neo Zeon funnels get off more than 2 or 3 shots? And if they do have such short life spans, how come the MS they are operating from never recover and recharge them? It seems like the NZ newtype MS have to be given a full resupply of funnels after every skirmish.

they do return after use its just not shown or all the funnels get destroyed before it can happen.or it is possible they over used them and did not have enough propellant to get them back



Edit: added more info

[iguanaman8989]

Actually, this has come up before.

It's believed that the funnels used in CCA are one-use only.
They're small, rather simple, and the racks on the Jagd Dogas and Sazabi don't seem to be much more than a way to carry them into battle.

Even the Nu Gundam's larger fin funnels seem to fit the same one time use idea. They're pretty much just stuck together and mounted on the backpack, with no real holder at all.


It was probably easier/cheaper overall to make one time use funnels, that are probably universal (for Neo Zeon at least), then to have more complex rechargeable ones, that would also need specialized equipment built into the suit.

[Nowhere Man]

I always thought they were lasers, from the looks of them, and from stuff I have read.

Then I saw a Jegan block a shot from a funnel with its shield in CCA.

"Now how the hell....?"

It's nice to see someone not be instantly pwned by a newtype weapon but.... Laser defenses on grunt shields? From the way it splashed off the shield though, it looked more like a beam. It's hard to say, just from appearances. -_-;

If I'm recalling correctly, the original RX-78-2 Gundam was able to block mega particle beams with its shield in episode 17 of Mobile Suit Gundam, so I'm not as surprised. In fact, one of the beams even hits the Gundam's back, knocking it over...

If the Funnels in fact housed lasers rather than Mega Particle Cannons, there's also a chance that it wouldn't pierce the shield: as Kenji previously noted, lasers are more focused, and unlike Mega Particle Cannons, rely purely on heat rather than force. The laser might not have heated the shield up enough to compromise it.

[Ryujin]

There's also the whole deal with beam weapons being more efficient at energy conversion than lasers. More bang for your limited amount of juice.

Anyways, a lot of shields have anti-beam coatings which do help to a degree. Their ablative nature would be even more effective against lasers.

[Nowhere Man]

Anyways, a lot of shields have anti-beam coatings which do help to a degree. Their ablative nature would be even more effective against lasers.

This is true: Anti-Beam Coating is standard on all Mobile Suit shields after the OYW. In fact, the Gundam Official glossary says so... probably should have read back up on it.

[toysdream]

Actually, this has come up before.

It's believed that the funnels used in CCA are one-use only.
They're small, rather simple, and the racks on the Jagd Dogas and Sazabi don't seem to be much more than a way to carry them into battle.

Even the Nu Gundam's larger fin funnels seem to fit the same one time use idea. They're pretty much just stuck together and mounted on the backpack, with no real holder at all.

Yeah, if you ever try keeping a funnel tally during CCA, you'll notice that none of the funnels are ever recovered after launch - once they're deployed, they never come back.

In theory, the Sazabi's backpack containers are supposed to be able to retrieve and resupply funnels, but Char never seems to use them. But it's not surprising that the Jagd Doga and Nu Gundam, whose funnels are just latched onto the outside of the mobile suit, can't recover and recharge them. This is actually one of the improvements planned for the Hi-Nu Gundam.

-- Mark

[Genocide]

It's nice to see someone not be instantly pwned by a newtype weapon but.... Laser defenses on grunt shields? From the way it splashed off the shield though, it looked more like a beam. It's hard to say, just from appearances. -_-;

If you're talking about this scene here, then that was actually the Jagd Doga's beam rifle. I don't think it's anything beyond animators choice to make it last so long though, since generally they don't plan that many little details in a 2 hour movie.

I have a question related to the topic: Why is it that you never see any of the Neo Zeon funnels get off more than 2 or 3 shots?

Actually, they get off quite a few shots, especially when dogfighting each other. In my opinion anyway, they seem to last a lot longer and have a significantly faster rate of fire than earlier remote weapons in Zeta and ZZ.

As for the funnels being retreivable, I think most of the time they get destroyed before needing to recharge. I would imagine that since they are mentally controlled, having them redock shouldn't be too much trouble. In Nu Gundam's case, retreiving the Fin Funnels during battle would probably be more of a hindrance, since the only reason they would need to come back is to refuel propellant. And because they don't seem to actually connect to the machine other than clipping on, they would just be dead weight. The Jagd Doga also doesn't seem like it has any way of supplying its funnels, so retreiving them during battle would be kind of pointless.

[Seraphic]

No, that's not the scene. Someone...I forgot who it was....either Char or Gyunei sent his funnels at a group of Jegans, and one of them quite purposefully blocked a funnel shot. (I was actually impressed. Go Jegans!)I saw the shot coming from the funnel and everything. I've forgotten how the Jegan was shot down later though. Either from a different funnel or another weapon from the attacking MS. Probably a rifle or a rocket killed him.

If I had the DVD, I would try to get a screenshot or something, but I don't. I've been waiting for an American blu-ray for CCA, but none yet, I don't think. Blah, but how would I take a screenshot then?? (Unless my ps3 can do it and I just don't know. )

I know anti-beam coatings on shields are supposed to be the standard. It only surprised me that (if funnels used lasers) the shield blocked a laser shot from a funnel.

I was thinking a reflective coating would be better for laser defense, and what are the odds of a grunt shield having something like that?? But from reading some of the info here, I guess an ablative coating might be enough to absorb the energy from a laser. Still not as good as reflecting it though.... >_>

[toysdream]

No, that's not the scene. Someone...I forgot who it was....either Char or Gyunei sent his funnels at a group of Jegans, and one of them quite purposefully blocked a funnel shot. (I was actually impressed. Go Jegans!)I saw the shot coming from the funnel and everything. I've forgotten how the Jegan was shot down later though. Either from a different funnel or another weapon from the attacking MS. Probably a rifle or a rocket killed him.

I dunno, I recall the same scene that Genocide describes pretty vividly; a Jegan blocks several of Gyunei's beam rifle shots with its shield, and then he hits it from a different angle with one of his funnels. You might want to double-check that this isn't the same scene you're thinking of.

-- Mark

[Wingnut]

It's not, I know what Seraphic is thinking of as well. It only happens for a split second/blink-and-you'll-miss-it and said Jegan is blasted by a beam rifle blast a short fraction of a second later. As if the funnel was a decoy to draw the attention of the Jegan pilot in another direction while Gyunei just offed him from another angle with his beam rifle.

IIRC it happens just after Quess's Jagd Doga gets its arm blasted off as Gyunei dispatches 5 Jegans in rapid succession.

[Genocide]

If you mean this scene here, the Jegan's shield breaks into pieces a second later, at which point it's off'd by another funnel from behind. It was kind of hard to catch though, even with the HD version in slow motion.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I do recall that scene as well; where 2(?) Jegans are dodging around Gyunei's funnels. 1 of them faces upwards to block a beam shot and succeeds, but is then taken out by a shot from Gyunei's beam assault rifle from the side right after. (And the shield did survive as well.)

Anyways, the number of funnels/bits required to keep a MS fully supplied is another reason why such MS are expensive to produce, much less upkeep. And it's not like ONLY Newtypes can shoot down funnels/bits, but rather they're just the type to do it best given they can sense the control behind them, allowing them to more easily predict where they'd be moved next, so it would be expected that several funnels/bits would end up shot down in crossfire and such.



As for high rates of fire and such, that was most likely attributed to the fact that, in ZZ, most of those Newtype MS (Quin Mantha, MP Qubeley, and Geymalk) had just a sheer high number of funnels at their disposal firing off at various times at the same time at one another, then moving quickly and firing again, which would give them the appearance of having rapid fire rates.

After a few shots (usually 2-5 shots on average given their use of e-caps), they get returned and replaced with another one of the bunch being kept back and recharged to keep up their barrages. Then they simply keep "recycling" their funnels over and over. This is probably why, even though those named MS have such a high number of funnels (30 for the Quin Mantha and MP Qubeley and 28 for the Geymalk; 2 of them being the Mother Funnels which are "bits" in principal), you never see that number being used by 1 single MS. Because if they're ALL deployed at once and use up their energy, then they'd have to all return and recharge at once, which would leave the MS more "vulnerable" (pfft, lol). Of course, this also makes them easier to shoot down since they'd be more grouped together depending on distance.

[Genocide]

As for high rates of fire and such, that was most likely attributed to the fact that, in ZZ, most of those Newtype MS (Quin Mantha, MP Qubeley, and Geymalk) had just a sheer high number of funnels at their disposal firing off at various times at the same time at one another, then moving quickly and firing again, which would give them the appearance of having rapid fire rates.

This is a bit of a late response on my part, but I meant that the CCA funnels appear to have a significantly faster rate of fire than ones in Zeta and ZZ.

After a few shots (usually 2-5 shots on average given their use of e-caps), they get returned and replaced with another one of the bunch being kept back and recharged to keep up their barrages. Then they simply keep "recycling" their funnels over and over. This is probably why, even though those named MS have such a high number of funnels (30 for the Quin Mantha and MP Qubeley and 28 for the Geymalk; 2 of them being the Mother Funnels which are "bits" in principal), you never see that number being used by 1 single MS. Because if they're ALL deployed at once and use up their energy, then they'd have to all return and recharge at once, which would leave the MS more "vulnerable" (pfft, lol). Of course, this also makes them easier to shoot down since they'd be more grouped together depending on distance.

Actually, almost all of Puru's scenes with her Qubeley Mark II shows her launching all of her funnels at once. There's a bit of a discrepency however. In this funnel-deployment-scene, I counted at least 30 (!) funnels being deployed. When the machine recalls the funnels, a similar number is also seen. Officially however, the Qubeley Mark II only has 12 funnels. I remember a similar discrepency with the original Qubeley in Zeta Gundam, but 12 to 30 is a huge difference.