The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:18 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 am
It seems to be the case for all the mainline production Valkyrie units. VF-1, VF-5000, VF-11, VF-171.
Sort of?

Most 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Generation Variable Fighter designs intended for space use do have some type of FAST Pack to supplement their internal fuel tanks and extend their operating time outside of a planetary atmosphere. The need for FAST Packs is for much the same reason described in my previous post. Regardless of their airframe sizes, all of them used that same initial generation of thermonuclear reaction turbine engine technology that had some serious efficiency problems in space because they were using reaction plasma as a propellant. The few models that didn't require a FAST Pack, like the 2nd Generation VF-4 and 3rd Generation VF-14, were mainly larger frames that either incorporated secondary engines to reduce the burden on the main engines or simply were so much larger that their internal fuel storage was adequate for long-duration space operations.

Advancements in Gravity and Inertia Control (GIC) technology and heat exchange theory made in the 2020s and the early 2030s led to a new generation of thermonuclear reaction engine technology that was adopted by the last few 3rd Generation Variable Fighters (the VF-16 and VF-17) and became a standard feature of 4th Generation VFs. The new engine concept, thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, were a massive improvement in efficiency that more or less eliminated the need for traditional FAST Packs when paired with an adequately large airframe. With a vastly more efficient engine, they no longer needed high-capacity external fuel tanks to maintain enough fuel that they could burn it at accelerated rates to produce plasma as propellant. In the process, the whole FAST Pack idea underwent a radical reversal.

The first three generations of Variable Fighters used FAST Packs that were designed around those large conformal fuel tanks and supplemental rocket engines that were necessary to extend the VF's endurance in space. Weapons systems were added almost as an afterthought, to make up for the increase in size and weight. The 4th Gen, and later, VFs went with a new concept where the FAST Packs were focused on adding large amounts of weaponry and just enough additional fuel or boosters to offset the degradation in performance caused by the extra mass of that additional weaponry.

The first few implementations were pretty minimal, just small conformal packs with a small amount of fuel slush and maybe an extra pallet of micro-missiles like the YF-19's FAST Packs. There were some limited-use packs that were used by the 3.5th Gen VF-17 late type and VF-19 2nd production type, but it wasn't until the 5th Generation VFs that the concept really came into its own with HUNDREDS of additional missiles and other weapons.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by yazi88 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 pm

Ah I understand now. For the most part early on, the FAST/SUPER packs were mainly for fuel consumption. While the 5th Generation is more about actual weapon packs rather than the fuel consumption given how much more fuel efficient these units become with each new generation.

Makes sense. I was thinking of the weapons aspect the most earlier on, but fuel is a very big factor too especially being in Space.

Thanks for the info!

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:27 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 pm
Ah I understand now. For the most part early on, the FAST/SUPER packs were mainly for fuel consumption. While the 5th Generation is more about actual weapon packs rather than the fuel consumption given how much more fuel efficient these units become with each new generation.
Yeah, the FAST Packs used by the first three generations of Variable Fighters[1] were primarily about supplementing their internal fuel tanks to extend their operating time in space.

Improvements in fuel efficiency were pretty trivial in the first three generations of Variable Fighter. Apart from a few improvements in heat-resistant materials and synthesizing fold carbon for the Gravity and Inertia Control unit the design of the engines remained largely unchanged from that of the original VF-1 Valkyrie. The solution at the time was simply brute force. They designed VFs to be larger and carry more internal fuel and designed FAST Pack conformal tanks to hold increasingly large amounts of fuel slush, and scaled up the engines to match. This hit its apex with General Galaxy's VF-14 and VF-17, which were engineered to be so large that they could carry the fuel they needed for extended space operations purely internally.

It wasn't until the mid-2030s that there was any significant improvement in fuel efficiency. That came about as a result of a next-generation engine technology called the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine. That next-generation engine design was developed to be the new standard engine for the 4th Generation of VFs which were on the drawing board at the time (the YF-19 and YF-21), though they were initially tested on the VF-16 (Mylene's VF-11MAXL Custom in Macross 7 uses the initial model of burst turbine from the VF-16) and on the VF-17D/S type that was the standard Special Forces VF at the time. (It's not strictly canon, but the Master File book for the VF-19 explains the improvements as a new type of thermoelectric converter with greatly improved power conversion and cooling efficiency, and a new application of GIC technology that went beyond fuel compression or plasma stream containment to also improve turbine pressures by creating a bubble of high gravity inside the body of the engine to create higher temperatures and pressures than would ordinarily be possible. This created super-high pressure exhaust when the trapped plasma and/or intake air pushes past the edge of the gravity bubble and explosively expands. It's also noted that the improved GIC systems allowed for the reactor itself to run hotter by providing better fuel compression and containment.) It was that improvement that effectively allowed FAST Pack designs to switch from being all about fuel to all about weaponry.

The Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that were developed for, and adopted in, the 5th Generation VFs were another radical leap forward. Describing them is kind of hard because the design is quite odd. In your normal jet engine (and thermonuclear reaction turbine engines) you normally have two distinct airflows: the air going through the body of the engine and the bypass airflow going over the outside of the engine to provide some cooling and noise reduction. Most commercial jets have high bypass turbines where the airflow around the body of the engine is as large or greater than the airflow through the turbine itself. Most military jets have low bypass turbines that have a narrow, higher-pressure bypass channel around the body of a very long engine. The Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine is... well... kind of an engine turducken. The body of the engine between the primary compressor and turbine blades has two separate sets of flow channels. The ones at the core are high temperature high pressure flow that interacts directly with the plasma stream from the reactor and around that is a lower (but still high) temperature flow that picks up the radiant heat from that central channel, with diverter channels joining the two allowing flow to be shunted from one to the other, and a nested turbine with its own transmission to allow the engine to regulate its input pressures while being driven by both the inner and outer turbine stages. There's still also a low-bypass airflow around the engine driven by the compressor fan. That was facilitated by more GIC improvements that led to even hotter reaction temperatures and better confinement of the plasma stream.


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[1] 1st Generation VFs include the VF-0, VF-0+, VF-1, SV-51, and SV-52. The 2nd Generation covers more or less all the numbers between 3 and 10, incl. the VF-X-3, VF-4, VF-5, VF-6, VF-7, VF-9, VF-X-10, as well as the non-sequential VF-3000 and VF-5000. The 3rd Generation starts from Project Nova's VF-11 and VF-14, as well as the VF-15, VF-16, and VF-17.

The 4th Generation starts from Project Super Nova (Macross Plus) with the VF-19 and VF-22, and includes the VF-171 and Sv-154. The 5th Generation starts from the YF-24 and includes the VF-24, VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-28, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, and Sv-262.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by yazi88 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:00 pm

Max confirmed to be using a YF-29 in the new Macross Delta movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt4vjKw2KNk

Although I don't know whose Green VF-31 using the armored pack that is...

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by yazi88 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm

Got a quick question, so which one of these is the better unit overall performance wise?

The YF-29 or the YF-30?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:06 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:00 pm
Although I don't know whose Green VF-31 using the armored pack that is...
It's one of the Aerial Knights... most fans are assuming it's Bogue Con-vaart because of the red personal marking that matches Bogue's red hair, and because he's the only one of the surviving Aerial Knights who has any real development done to his character.

(Herman Kroos and Qasim Eber-hardt are too old to mesh well with Delta Flight and Walkure, Theo and Xao Jussila are collectively a single character and you can't split up the pair, so that just leaves Bogue since Keith and Roid are dead as of the end of the previous movie.)


yazi88 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm
Got a quick question, so which one of these is the better unit overall performance wise?

The YF-29 or the YF-30?
So... in terms of flight performance, the answer would be the YF-30 Chronos.

In terms of combat capability, the YF-29 wins hands down with FAR greater armament.

Basically, the YF-30 was a lightly armed technology demonstrator - actually an X-plane designated as a prototype so its developer could delay disclosure of the Fold Dimensional Resonance System's specifications to the government - while the YF-29 was a Gundam-style Super Prototype that was theoretically intended for production but was too costly in terms of materials to ever actually build in numbers.
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Shinsei Industry, Legodt & Angeloni Industries, and the Macross Frontier Fleet Arsenal had developed the YF-29 Durandal prototype in relative secrecy alongside the more public YF-25 Prophecy that was intended to become the next main fighter of the Frontier Government's New UN Forces. Construction of the prototype was halted when it turned out to be impossible to acquire fold quartz of the necessary size and purity to complete the Fold Wave System. Even Earth lacks the technology to synthesize fold quartz, so the only way to get it was to scavenge Vajra carcasses or pillage any Protoculture ruins they could find. Even then, fold quartz of the requisite size and purity to make a Fold Wave System is almost nonexistent and only commonly found in the bodies of Vajra Queen forms. It wasn't until after the start of their war with the Vajra that the Frontier fleet acquired the fold quartz they needed to complete a single YF-29.

The sheer scarcity of the fold quartz necessary to manufacture the fold wave system made the YF-29 the single most expensive aircraft to ever fly and effectively impossible to mass produce.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:08 am

I hope the next movie better give a good explanation where did Xaos get all the expensive components to make their YF-29.

Anyway, I've discussed about sci-fi stuffs in the West that lifted designs from Kawamori and other Japanese mechanical designers, but never talk about Transformer. Is it true that there is a version of Starscream (in animation) having lifted some details from the VF-1? I've heard just rumor just recently and have been trying to find any confirmation to no avail. I doubt it anyway, since most of the time Starscream transforms into an F-16 or F-22.

That said, I do kind of respect the ability of Transformers fans to remember every incarnation of their favorite characters. I just can't deal with just so many redesigns.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:47 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:08 am
I hope the next movie better give a good explanation where did Xaos get all the expensive components to make their YF-29.
Odds are they probably won't even acknowledge it... though you could assume from the series that they're just bad at budgeting despite being a megacorp since they were basically out of money within a few days of having to flee their defeat on Ragna and couldn't afford fuel, ammunition, or supplies.

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:08 am
Anyway, I've discussed about sci-fi stuffs in the West that lifted designs from Kawamori and other Japanese mechanical designers, but never talk about Transformer. Is it true that there is a version of Starscream (in animation) having lifted some details from the VF-1? I've heard just rumor just recently and have been trying to find any confirmation to no avail. I doubt it anyway, since most of the time Starscream transforms into an F-16 or F-22.
When Hasbro was first making the original Transformers toy line using various Takara toy lines and filling it out with whatever other robot designs they could license, they did a licensed redeco of the Takatoku Toys VF-1S toy that was made for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross. The character they assigned to it was Jetfire. It became something of a sticky wicket for the cartoon, where they changed the character's name and appearance for copyright reasons (they didn't have permission to use the VF-1 in animation). The replacement character which was made for the TV series was Skyfire, who was a friend of Starscream's from before the war who was stranded on Earth and spend millions of years frozen in ice before being recovered and eventually joining the Autobots.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:34 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:47 pm
where they changed the character's name and appearance for copyright reasons (they didn't have permission to use the VF-1 in animation).
The story bible for the original Transformers cartoon had a Skyfire design that was closer to the toy, which was used for a commercial before his canon appearance in the series.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:11 am

What are the differences in armament between the Kairos and Siegfried?

What are the roles of the VF-31 C, E, F, and J types?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:52 am

hitokirigarou wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:11 am
What are the differences in armament between the Kairos and Siegfried?
Relatively minimal.

The Siegfried type replaced the 27mm railgun pods in the VF-31A's forearms with a lower caliber, less powerful 25mm railgun model and the weapons bay in the back of the leg that would ordinarily hold a missile pallet instead holds the storage rack for the MDP-001W Cygnus multidrones that support Walkure.

The rest of its armament is basically unchanged. There are some hints that the military spec's ordnance container is equipped with a sensor module or missile container where the multidrone charger unit is on the Siegfried, but all of the other weapons are stock and the only difference beyond that is the number of coaxial beam machine guns on its monitor turret (head).

hitokirigarou wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:11 am
What are the roles of the VF-31 C, E, F, and J types?
Because the Siegfried type is an unofficial (private) spec, the variant letters are similarly not recognized by the New UN Forces.

On paper, Xaos considers Messer's VF-31F to be an Air Superiority variant, Chuck's VF-31E to be a reconnaissance, early early warning, and electronic warfare variant, Mirage's VF-31C to be a "Tactical Support" variant, and Hayate's VF-31J to be an Air Superiority support variant.
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