Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

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Freighttrain
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:28 am

@Arsarcana

Actually the fact that most of the people replying to my post here are those that are somehow having difficulty with how my mobile weapon classification systems are projections of how actual militaries would classify and designate such vehicles is a clue to me that there may be some kind of hostile group mentality regarding individual endeavour on the topic of the feasibility of gigantic humanoid military vehicles in real world militaries.

Now I don't know why you and others keep repeating how this terminology isn't actually used in Gundam media, of course it isn't, because I created the terminology and acronyms/initialisms and I find it quite bizarre that I would have to mention this even once!

Also as others here have said, something possibly paradigm changing such as the development of gigantic humanoid military vehicles would probably generate a new set of terminology to describe it, well it simply might not be the kind of terminology you would expect but since my classifications and designations are the only projection I've seen regarding how a real world military would develop terminology for this, there isn't really anything that anyone could complain about regarding this unless someone else creates a differing set of terminology for such things with an equally comprehensive array.

And METL (Metallopolymorphic ExtraTerrestrial Lifeform) is the perfect acronym for those things from the Gundam 00 movie, as the acronym itself actually describes a primary feature of the creatures themselves and the words in that acronym describe what they are just as good as ELS (Extraterrestrial Living-metal Shape-shifter) does, so the acronym of METL is simply a perfect improvement.

Now I just ignore that weird stuff from the movie and the end of season two of Gundam 00 because aside from that, the Anno Domini mobile weapons are actually quite good to use as a basis for my classification.

And again, my classification systems are about realistic classification and designation, not what such things would be called in Gundam media, so in reality 'mobile suit' sounds much more like it is describing a powered exoskeleton instead of a vehicle, this is actually a fact and the reason why I created my own terminology to be more realistic.
Last edited by Freighttrain on Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:23 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:33 am

the topic of the feasibility of gigantic humanoid military vehicles in real world militaries.
if that's what you really want to talk about it, i hate to break it to ya but the feasibility of gigantic humanoid military vehicles in real world militaries is exactly zero.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:35 am

Why would you even say that.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Arsarcana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:38 am

Physics

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:42 am

Oh I see, you must want me to make a post focusing on the tactical advantages and feasibility of shumvees in real world militaries, is that it?
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:42 am

@yazi88

Those aren't Gundam fan fictions, those are my projections of how real militaries would classify such vehicles and I decided to use the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines as a basis since they seem to be the most realistic to me.

And the terminology I use is explained where necessary, though if there is anything in particular that doesn't make sense to you then let me know and I could explain what it means.

And the offical source information regarding mobile weapons from Gundam media is just that, it is not of the same standard of realism that my classification systems are.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 am

also, Santa Claus is not real, the Tooth Fairy is not leaving money under your pillow for your teeth, and the real reason it's called a High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle instead of a truck is that bureaucrats and politicians are more likely to approve no-bid contracts for decades-long procurement and development programs that cost billions of dollars if the thing you're selling them is called a High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle instead of a truck.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 am

Oh don't worry, this next one will even have pictures and ancient Greece too.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:17 am

When you mentioned physics as the reason you believe that shumvees are unfeasible in real world militaries, is that because of the square-cube law?

Because if it is then one would think that as advances in materials science provide lighter and stronger materials and advances in robotics result in more powerful actuators etc., this would eventually reach the point where the square-cube law would become managable regarding the functionality of gigantic humanoid vehicles.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:04 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:39 am
Well despite the fact you didn't actually reply to any of my counterpoints, I'll reply only once more to your messages here.
You haven't made any counterpoints... not to my post, and certainly not to anyone else's. That'd be why there's a moderator in this thread wondering aloud if you're a troll or just an idiot.

:lol: :roll:


Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:39 am
You think the premise of my mobile weapons classification systems is fundamentally wrong, then why don't you explain exactly why it is you believe this.

And why don't you also explain why you believe my mobile weapon classification systems are not realistic.
As I'm going to be spending the next two-and-a-half hours stuck in a fantastically dull meeting... I'll humor you and spoonfeed you the details of why your entire effort here is a complete waste of time.

First and foremost, your blog post demonstrates a fundamental failure to understand how the military classifies its vehicles. The foundation of your misconception appears to be a factually-incorrect belief that terms like "HMMWV" are classes/categories of vehicle rather than the names of specific platforms or development programs as they are in actual fact. The military doesn't actually classify vehicles like this for operational purposes, these terms are for bureaucrats and politicians who want to get a vague idea of what they're approving or voting on without having to actually read the entire RFP. "HMMWV" refers to the generic platform that more than two dozen different models of fighting vehicle are built on, and describes precisely none of them in detail. It's like saying you drive a Chrysler DT... a term that does NOTHING to tell anyone which of the ten different main variants of the DT platform you're talking about: the RAM 1500 Trademan, Lone Star, North, Rebel, Power Wagon, Laramie, Longhorn, Limited, Sport, or Heavy Duty, which have different engines, transmissions, powertrain architectures, cabin sizes, bed sizes, and optional systems. The HMMWV term refers only to vehicles built off that specific platform, and is not used in any actual operational context. Saying "I drive a HMMWV" communicates no useful information. Instead, they referred to by their M-numbers and equipment... details which tell you exactly what you're dealing with.

Second, what you've done here is attempt to classify Mobile Suits like they were light trucks. That's nonsensical to say the least. The military keeps its terms for different categories of vehicles separate to avoid confusion. Mobile Suit designations throughout virtually all of Gundam are based on the tri-service aircraft designation system rather than the systems used by ground forces fighting vehicles. You're barking up the wrong tree by trying to fit these into ground forces terminology designed for addressing something little different from a family's sport utility vehicle. Being so different from anything available previously, a real world military would do as they have done for things like aircraft and create a separate set of terms specific to this radical new platform.

Third, from the outset your categorizations of Mobile Suits are largely arbitrary. Mobile Suits are not superheavy fighting vehicles by any stretch of the imagination. For almost all of the Gundam franchise, except for the early Universal Century timeline, Mobile Suits are not considered Armored Fighting Vehicles... they're treated as the new infantry. Mobile Armors occupy the heavy support role formerly occupied by tanks. Conventional tanks and ground troops are essentially obsolete on the actual battlefield. This is particularly evident in After Colony stories, where the development of space colonies and mobile suits began in the wake of the second world war's conclusion, with mobile suits acting as paratroopers attacking fortresses instead of engaging in our modern high mobility warfare. The OZ-06MS Leo is the default infantry platform of this new era of war, the equivalent of a light infantry trooper on foot, with various optional support weaponry.

Fourth, your attempts to categorize them by battlefield role is also generally kind of a waste of time since most mobile suits are fundamentally intended to be multirole designs. Very VERY few are specialized for a particular role like close combat, bombardment, etc. Consequently, most of your classifications are completely arbitrary since those distinctions do not exist in the Mobile Suit's actual operating profile.

Fifth, for a lot of what you're trying to write about, there are already existing acronyms or terms which you're ignoring... and which communicate the same information with significantly better clarity and brevity, both of which the military prefers in real life.

Sixth and lastly, you've peppered your nonsense acronyms with a lot of five dollar words that nobody in the armed forces would remotely consider using with a straight face. If you said "Xerocolous" to a group of GIs or Marines, all you'd get in return (apart from maybe a blank look) would be a sarcastic "Gesundheit". Military designations are meant to emphasize CLARITY. Even the college-educated flag officers are going to be reaching for a dictionary if words like "Xerocolous", "Tetrabrachio-chelate", or "Cephalothoracic" start showing up. A lot of this wasted verbiage is devoted to communicating the shape of a particular mobile suit... which is well outside the realm of what a soldier needs to know and would not be included in any military designation. The designations of these mobile suits already tell you everything you need to know about their operating profile:
  • OZ-06MS Leo - Organization of the Zodiac Type-06 general duty Mobile Suit
  • OZ-08MMS Cancer - Organization of the Zodiac Type-08 Marine-use Mobile Suit
  • OZ-12SMS Taurus - Organization of the Zodiac Type-12 Space-use Mobile Suit
  • OZ-13MSX1 Vayeate - Organization of the Zodiac Type-13 general duty Mobile Suit (Experimental)
  • OZ-02MD Virgo - Organization of the Zodiac Type-02 general duty Mobile Doll

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:39 am
Unless you can explain why you believe this is true without using misleading sophistry, then I have no reason to continue replying to your messages here.
This, from someone whose entire line of reasoning is essentially a pretentious attempt to disguise a lack of actual knowledge by decorating a display of monumental ignorance with five dollar words and an excess of clumsy acronyms. :lol:


Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:42 am
Oh I see, you must want me to make a post focusing on the tactical advantages and feasibility of shumvees in real world militaries, is that it?
Please don't... it'd be a shame if the concentration of ignorance in your writing collapsed into a neutron star.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:09 pm

To begin with, your hostile attitude toward me is completely unwarranted as we have never communicated before and I have not given you any reason to word your mesages to me like that. And because of this, everything you have written simply looks like an attempt to discredit the realism of my mobile weapon classification systems, especially when you ignore blatantly obvious facts that I have pointed out in my counterpoints, repeatedly, and even go so far as to say that I never made any counterpoints to you or anyone else who has replied on this thread which is obviously a blatant lie.

I'm not listening to anymore from you regarding my classification systems when neither you nor anyone else has presented an alternative set of realistic terminology for those mobile weapons with an equally comprehensive array.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:23 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:09 pm
To begin with, your hostile attitude toward me is completely unwarranted as we have never communicated before and I have not given you any reason to word your mesages to me like that.
You've given EVERYONE a reason to treat you like this, because you refuse to hear anyone pointing out the obvious problems with your reasoning. :roll:

Like I said, there is a REASON the mods are in here wondering aloud if you're a troll. I suppose we have our answer now, don't we?


Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:09 pm
And because of this, everything you have written simply looks like an attempt to discredit the realism of my mobile weapon classification systems, especially when you ignore blatantly obvious facts that I have pointed out in my counterpoints, repeatedly, and even go so far as to say that I never made any counterpoints to you or anyone else who has replied on this thread [...]
:roll:

If you had paid attention to the replies you've received, you would know that what you've written is NOT realistic by any stretch of the imagination for reasons that myself and others have outlined. Consequently, what you've written isn't being "discredited" because it was never credible to begin with. You've made no counterpoints, only attempted to insist that what you've written is realistic (it's not).

Haven't you noticed that literally NOBODY except you thinks what you've come up with is sound? Even the comments on your own blog are calling your work into question. :roll:

My advice to you would be to stop digging, you've already hit rock bottom.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Arsarcana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:18 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:48 am
Oh don't worry, this next one will even have pictures and ancient Greece too.
This, and you have to ask why there's some question as to whether you're trolling the board?
Those aren't fan-fictions, those are my projections of how real militaries would classify such vehicles and I decided to use the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines as a basis since they seem to be the most realistic to me.
Clearly, the key words in this sentence are 'to me'. I'm still waiting for you to so much as acknowledge that GN Particles or humanoid machines that are sixteen meters tall and weight seven tons are nothing even close to 'realistic'. Do you know how to calculate density? Try doing it some time for the OZ-06MS Leo (since we know what it's armored with) and just to make things better for yourself assume that half the volume is empty space, or fudge it even further if you like. Look at the mass per cubic meter figure that you get, then go look up the equivalent figure for pure titanium and compare the two numbers. The result might surprise you... and no, you can't handwave that one away with 'magic space metal' because the Leo doesn't incorporate it.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Chris » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:01 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:09 pm
To begin with, your hostile attitude toward me is completely unwarranted as we have never communicated before and I have not given you any reason to word your mesages to me like that. And because of this, everything you have written simply looks like an attempt to discredit the realism of my mobile weapon classification systems, especially when you ignore blatantly obvious facts that I have pointed out in my counterpoints, repeatedly, and even go so far as to say that I never made any counterpoints to you or anyone else who has replied on this thread which is obviously a blatant lie.

I'm not listening to anymore from you regarding my classification systems when neither you nor anyone else has presented an alternative set of realistic terminology for those mobile weapons with an equally comprehensive array.
Consider this an official warning - stop with this sea lioning nonsense immediately. You're acting like a fool and refuse to accept any criticism about a nonsensical thing you invented that no one asked for and that has nothing to do with Gundam or anything that anyone wants to discuss about Gundam. You are clearly so in love with your own idea that you think it's perfect and above criticism. The only person being hostile here is you. Any more stuff like this and the thread will be locked.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:21 am

Just looking for a reply from ShadowCell about whether or not he was referring to the square-cube law when he mentioned physics.


@Arsarcana

I wasn't trying to be rude, annoying or misleading when I said that, my next mecha post will actually feature pictures as well as references to ancient Greece.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Kuruni » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:47 am

...as references to ancient Greece.
...how is that suppose to improve anything?
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Arsarcana » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:21 am
Just looking for a reply from ShadowCell about whether or not he was referring to the square-cube law when he mentioned physics.
I think you meant me, since I'm the one that said that. Yes, I was referring to square-cube. You haven't answered my question about whether or not you understand how densisity works, which relates directly to that physical law and why nothing in Wing is even remotely 'realistic'.
I wasn't trying to be rude, annoying or misleading when I said that, my next mecha post will actually feature pictures as well as references to ancient Greece.
I have utterly no idea what ancient Greece is supposed to do with anything mecha, unless we're talking Mazinger. Which we aren't.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:12 pm

Arsarcana wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 am
I think you meant me, since I'm the one that said that. Yes, I was referring to square-cube. You haven't answered my question about whether or not you understand how densisity works, which relates directly to that physical law and why nothing in Wing is even remotely 'realistic'.
For "realism" my favorite is still the impossible amounts of power behind the Wing Gundam's beam rifle... it has one tenth the output of a municipal nuclear reactor, and somehow outputs more energy than a city uses in a year every time it fires.

Either there's some overunity shenanigans involved (which is flat impossible), or it's a lot less powerful than it claims to be and the Leo's made of something a lot weaker than titanium... like a mild cheese.


Arsarcana wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 am
I have utterly no idea what ancient Greece is supposed to do with anything mecha, unless we're talking Mazinger. Which we aren't.
... the only thing I can think of is he's going to attempt to classify G Gundam next, since Neo Greece's Gundam was the Zeus Gundam.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:25 pm

@Kuruni

You will just have to wait and see.


@Arsarcana

It was ShadowCell who mentioned physics, so I'll wait for him to reply before I continue with that conversation.

And regarding references to ancient Greece, like Kuruni you will also just have to wait and see, though no, I don't know what 'Mazinger' is.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:34 pm

i mean physics is one reason why giant humanoid mecha are unfeasible as military weapons but there are other reasons, like the thing where modern precision weapons make mecha just huge unwieldy targets, which is why Gundam usually has some sort of Macguffin (e.g. Minovsky particles) to eliminate those precision weapons.

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