Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:35 am
Maybe I misunderstand the entire thing because "Earth Mainland" or "Main Planet" are often mentioned in novels (The Ride, 30 and Delta) and UN is portrayed as like a centralized government, or at least a federal one more than a supranational organization, especially in novels, even in NUN era.
Earth is still an important planet in the 2050's and 2060's... it just isn't the center of the galaxy anymore.
Earth is still the
de facto capital of the New Unification Government. Macross City in Alaska is pulling triple duty as the planetary capital, the solar system capital, and the Seat of the New UN Parliament. That lucky municipality is also home to the New Unified Forces Command (the supreme headquarters of the New UN Forces, which you'd recognize as the decommissioned SDF-1
Macross). It's also the wealthiest and most technologically advanced world in the New UN Government, and maintains the largest, best-equipped New UN Forces garrison as well as equipping the federal New UN Forces.
Earth is hands down the "biggest stick", it's just no longer micromanaging the rest of the galaxy because the logistical problems inherent in fold travel and fold communications made it more practical to devolve more and more authority to the individual member "states". (It's rather difficult to keep your finger on the pulse of a growing colony when it takes weeks to get a communique there and months to travel there one-way.)
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:35 am
But why NUNS didn't just continue the development of YF-24 in late 2040s? If the threat of Vajra was that great, NUNS might develop its own 5-Gen VF, in case that Project Triangular was behind schedule or facing great obstacles and its 5-Gen VFs were not avaliable in time. Or they simply put YF-24 in production.
They did... sort of. It's a complicated story.
Shinsei and General Galaxy's joint YF-24 development program was something initiated and bankrolled by the New UN Government and federal New UN Forces. It was suspended for a time when it turned out the all-important Inertia Store Converter technology simply wasn't mature enough to allow the program to go forward. Once stable ISC systems were available, Shinsei Industry relaunched the YF-24 program as their YF-24 "Evolution" and in 2057 they demonstrated the final prototypes to the federal New UN Forces in an ambitious simulated combat scenario at the New Edwards Test Flight Center on Eden with Major Isamu A. Dyson of the New UN Forces reserve serving as test pilot. The YF-24 Evolution demonstrator beat, in the simulated dogfight, a mixed squadron of 12 4th Generation VFs (VF-19s and VF-22s) and 6 QF-4000 Ghost UCAVs, and then demonstrated a simulated pinpoint reaction warhead attack on the bridge of a stealth carrier using a fold booster. The New UN Forces were understandably impressed, and the Shinsei's YF-24 Evolution went into mass production as the VF-24A and became the next main fighter of the Earth forces and Federal New UN Forces. (Remarks in the YF-29's writeups in
Macross Chronicle and in
Great Mechanics suggest the YF-29 is the only 5th Gen VF to rival the VF-24 for performance.)
Once the federal New UN Forces had settled on the VF-24 as their next main fighter, a censored version of the YF-24 specification was shared to the emigrant fleets and planets to become the basis for their locally developed new VFs or export versions of the VF-24. It was already a completed aircraft headed into mass production before development of the YF-25, YF-27, and YF-30 began.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:35 am
The background mentioned in TOMYTEC VF-31A model manual is like NUNS did nothing (still cleaning up the mess of 2nd Space War?), paying no attention to the development of 5-Gen VFs made by member fleets. When VF-25 and VF-27 rolled out, they woke up suddenly and cried for new toys...
The federal New UN Forces have a lot on their plate, and generally don't intervene in inter-colony disputes (as Mirage mentions in the
Macross Delta series).
Safe bet is the TOMYTEC model is referring to the local defense forces the worlds of the Brisingr Alliance operate under the banner of the New UN Forces. They're very much late to the 5th Generation party, as their locally-developed Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos won't be ready for adoption by their New UN Forces garrisons until 2069 or 2070 (per Kawamori's interview in
Great Mechanics G's Spring 2016 issue), a full decade after most of the rest of the galaxy got their 5th Gen VFs into production.
Those poor buggers in the Brisingr Alliance NUNS were still flying Block II VF-171s in 2067, after even their impoverished former member Windermere IV had broomed its 4th Gen Sv-154 Svards in favor of a 5th Gen fighter from Epsilon Foundation's subsidiary Dian Cécht (the Sv-262 Draken III).
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:35 am
It even contradicts Master File VF-25 a lot.
Which is funny in a sad/annoying way, because a fair chunk of it is lazily copied right from the VF-25
Master File... including most of the diagrams.
yazi88 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:52 am
There is no 1 size fit all unless its a cheap mass produced unit that has been in use for many years and even then things differ depending on what their preference is.
Yep... that's your VF-171 Nightmare Plus, a comparatively inexpensive mass production unit that exists in dozens of different regional variations. Supposedly it's only three times as expensive as the non-variable unmanned QF-4000, and it's a masterpiece of operational versatility that can function as everything from space dogfighter down the line to reconnaissance plane, bomber, and spyplane.
yazi88 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:52 am
The Galaxy Fleet was very shady and committing all sorts of acts, but no one kept a check on them. Delta has shown us the same thing again with what is happening in the galaxy with HQ doing nothing to actually help.
To be fair, it's noted in the
Macross Delta series that the situation with Windermere IV made it very difficult, politically, for the federal New UN Forces to intervene. It was technically an inter-colony tiff, a kind of conflict that they don't intervene in unless it gets WAY out of hand like if someone dusts off WMDs and tries to use 'em. (If they'd been aware of what Windermere IV was up to, they'd probably have sent a decent-sized reinforcement contingent, but Xaos's Lady M tried to keep it all quiet until it was too late.)
Henyo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:09 am
give it some time and Macross' Earth will end up like LOGH's Earth. just a thing of the past at worst and an unusual tourist spot at best. that said, it's no wonder Galaxy Fleet and the Wind Kingdom go to create their own VFs.
Unless someone steps up their game and manages to eclipse the technological might of Earth, that's not likely. They've got TWENTY factory satellites in that system, making them the single biggest industrial power in the galaxy outside of the Zentradi Army's logistical chain.
That said, Windermere IV's Kingdom of the Wind didn't develop its own VFs. Their economy is monstrously underdeveloped and still largely agricultural since New UN Government arms export laws prohibited them from exploiting the planet's other major resource: the metric shit-ton of fold quartz the Protoculture left sitting around on their planet. (This isn't biting just them in the arse though, it's a galaxy-wide restriction meant to prevent the proliferation of dimensional warheads.) Their VFs were purchased from the human-run defense contractors of the galaxy. They were initially buying from a specialist "brand" that was a pet project of one of General Galaxy's cofounders, the General Galaxy SV Works. The SV Works were sold off and became part of an Epsilon Foundation subsidiary named Dian Cécht and became the Dian Cécht SV Works, who developed the Sv-262 Draken III. Their warships are also purchased from Epsilon Foundation subsidiaries, and appear to be derivatives of General Galaxy designs.
Henyo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:09 am
it is a good thing that there's no equivalent of Ace combat infinity's Advanced Automated Aviation Plant.
... there is. The "Automated Weapons Development and Production" stations, AKA Factory Satellites, that the New UN Government has been appropriating from the Zentradi Army for decades. Once retrofitted, a factory satellite can build practically anything. The one they capture in the original
SDF Macross TV series is the Sol system's principal shipyard and responsible for building the vast majority of the emigrant ships in the setting. That's how they've managed to launch 100+ short-range emigrant fleets and over 60 long-range ones in just four decades... and that's just ONE of them. Earth has twenty. 3rd Gen and later emigrant fleets are equipped with what you'd call a crude copy of the factory satellite's technology either in the form of stand-alone factory ships like the Macross-7 fleet's
Three Star-class (a terrible pun on the Mitsubishi group's name) or built into the habitat ships like Macross Frontier had.
It's known that several other New UN Government worlds also possess factory satellites. Eden is known to possess a factory satellite originally designed to produce Queadluun-Rau battle suits, which is where their General Galaxy office developed and built both the YF-21 and the Queadluun-Rhea battle suit first seen in
Macross Frontier. The remote colony world of Uroboros from
Macross 30 also has one, and it's actually used exactly the same way in-game as
Ace Combat Infinity's advanced automated aviation plant, building new VFs once you acquire/unlock the blueprints for them and provide the money/parts to build them.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
After NUNS knew Frontier and Galaxy developed and manufactured their own 5-Gen VFs, NUN government worried that separatist movement may erupt in Colony Fleets. Then they ordered NUNS to adopt an new VF, replacing VF-171. I think the NUNS in the VF-31A model manual is NUN Federal Force said by Kaiba.
You've got that backwards.
The New UN Government and federal New UN Forces were worried about the rise in separatist movements as early as
Macross Plus. The YF-19 and YF-21 were developed, in part, to suppress such movements through pinpoint decapitation strikes on their headquarters to avoid mass bloodshed. (Col. Millard Johnson explains this when he introduces Isamu to the program in the OVA's first episode.) This was also one of the main reasons the New UN Government opted NOT to export full-spec VF-19s and VF-22s to emigrant fleets and mandated that performance limits be imposed on locally-built VF-19s and VF-22s in those fleets. They didn't want fighters that could potentially break through Earth's defenses in a position where they could fall into the hands of anti-government forces. That's why the emigrant fleet VF-19s are mostly what are called "monkey models"... reduced-capability export versions like the VF-19P from
Macross Dynamite 7 or the VF-19EF from
Macross the Ride.
The federal New UN Forces had already selected their 5th Generation main VF (the VF-24) before emigrant fleets ever even received the YF-24 Evolution specs they used as the basis for their own original VFs.
The VF-31 is about the last fighter you'd want to adopt if you were looking to be tops in the 5th Generation. Its performance is worse than any other 5th Generation VF to date. The Brisingr Alliance developed it as a way of stimulating their own economy, and it's correspondingly cheap because their member works cannot afford to have an expensive super-high performance VF. Even the customized VF-31s that Xaos uses as the "Siegfried" type are only BARELY better than the VF-25, and the customization is so expensive that Xaos is only able to field a few of them.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
Other than real world reasons, why did they choose to redesign YF-30 into VF-31, instead of putting YF-24 into mass production? NUNS Federal Force already knew that they had no time to develop a totally new VF, yet redesigning YF-30 could take more time than producing YF-24 as VF-24.
Was YF-24 unable to fulfill NUNS Federal Force requirements? Or simply the release of Delta in real world changed everything, and the writer who wrote the background of VF-31A forgot the development history of YF-24 family?
The decision to develop the YF-30 Chronos into the VF-31 Kairos had nothing to do with the federal New UN Forces... it was a local decision made by the Brisingr Alliance member worlds. The obvious reason is it's an economic stimulus to develop their own fighter instead of purchasing one from an ally. Japan has done the same thing in the real world: the Japan Air Self-Defense Force's Mitsubishi F-2 is a derivative of the General Dynamics F-16 Falcon used by the USAF.
In the YF-30's case, I would assume that the Brisingr Alliance found building locally more attractive and the YF-30 design was probably too expensive to mass produce even in a build-under-license environment.
The YF-24 had already been approved for production as the VF-24 by the federal New UN Forces ten years before the events of
Macross Delta (see above).
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
It is because Alto said VF-25 were fielded by both SMS and NUNS (NUNS Special Forces in novel) in Macross 30, that means Kawamori might intended to use VF-25 as next-gen main VF before Delta released.
Yet, It is impossible to tell the NUNS mentioned above is Frontier Forces or NUNS outside Frontier.
That's actually explained quite clearly in many different sources.
The Shinsei/LAI VF-25 Messiah was developed in partnership with the Macross Frontier fleet arsenal as the next main fighter of the Macross Frontier New UN Forces, with the possibility of export sales to the fleet's closest strategic, political, and economic partners. It was not developed as a candidate to be the federal New UN Forces' next main fighter, as they had already chosen their next main fighter in 2057.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
UN on screens and novels are quite different.
Not really. They're actually pretty much identical, just the novelizations and spinoff light novels do a lot more continuity-related stuff, trying to tie all the different stories together more tightly whereas the TV anime tries to minimize references to other stories to stay accessible to new viewers.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
Their counterpart on novels? In 2040s, they were out-of-touch and bossy Earth supremacists and UN sounded like a federal state with a stagnate government plagued by fold faults, rather than EU.
Yeah, that's about right... that's why the decentralization accelerated in the 2040's and early 2050's, and it led directly to Latence's attempted coup d'etat in 2051.
Phonix_1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am
Below are what they did as described in F TV version Novel.
Most of what you listed is also true in the shows... it's just not harped on as much in there, since it'd distract from the story they're trying to tell.
The first point on your list is literally the reason Windermere IV went to war with the New UN Government in 2060 and ultimately seceded from it. The New UN Government was monopolizing the harvesting of fold quartz on their world under the arms export restrictions, and their isolation made it difficult to grow their economy otherwise. This is elaborated on more in
Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight.
The second point is tangentially touched-on in
Macross Frontier, though it underpins most of the plot there. Both fleets featured in the series are sponsored by corporations, though Macross Galaxy is officially an independent wholly-owned subsidiary of General Galaxy and governed as a corporation (the colonists in the fleet are employees), while Macross Frontier has a democratic parliamentary government that is under the nominal control of the fleet's financial backer Bilra Transport Co., which financed the fleet to go find fold quartz for improving its business position and even provided part of the fleet's defense forces through its subsidiary Strategic Military Services (SMS). Even the 117th Research Fleet was operated using funding from a megacorporation... the Critical Path Corporation, whose CEO was a bad guy in
Macross VF-X2.
Your third point is not only a major plot point in several
Macross 7 episodes, it's also referenced quite explicitly in
Macross Frontier AND
Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight. Windermere IV wasn't happy about having to send its defense forces (the Aerial Knights) to aid one of its neighbors in a battle with a rogue Zentradi fleet because a "request" came down from New UN Forces staff HQ. It's not usually depicted as a problem, though... most emigrant fleets have sufficient firepower to deal with most threats on their own, though they do sometimes grumble when they have to commit their forces to help their neighbors out. City-7's problem was kind of a unique situation, since they had a hard time selling the idea of large-scale reinforcement to the military brass when they were already a large (for the time) fleet with higher-than-average firepower.
(Leon Mishima was appointed to oversee the Frontier fleet's NUNS by NUNS Staff HQ. It technically made him a member of President Glass's cabinet. It was President Glass, however, who was stupid enough that he'd made Mishima part of the actual governmental chain of command and opened the way for Mishima to assassinate him and take over.)
EDIT: BBcode screwups!