The Musai's Anti-Air Missile Launchers

[Gelgoog Jager]

I have wondered about how poor the defenses of some Musai class ships seem to be, for instance, the Musai Final Type from 0080, which supposedly only has its two 2-barrel mega particle weapons as its sole means for attack or defense.

As you may know, the original Musai and 10 medium-sized missile launchers and 2 large ones (in the novels these missiles are actually given a particular name which I don't recall right now). While the large ones seem to anti-ship missiles, the medium-sized ones are seem sometimes working as anti-air defenses. The Musai Kai from Zeta and afterwards retains the same setup, and the Musai Late Type from 0083 seems to retain the medium-sized missile launchers, but the large ones seem to be gone. However, the Zanzibar II (also from 0080) seems to now have some sort of lid over its own large missile launcher (in the originals series, Char's Zanzibar fired some sort of spinning missile from its equivalent openings), which makes me suspect that those two lid-like things on the upper nose of the Musai Late Type might be the large missile launchers relocated to the front and know also covered as in the case of the Zanzibar II.

Regarding the use of these medium-sized missile for AA defense, I would like to consider that in principle it would be similar to the concept of the Alexandria class, which supposedly secondary beam guns for AA defense, weapons that would likely be able to destroy a MS in a single shot if hit, but likewise would have a lower rate of fire and probably also a hard time actually hitting a moving MS in the first place.

On the other hand, the newer version of the Musai from MS Igloo, which also served for the updated version o the Musai Kai used for Unicorn, is usually only credited for having the two large missile launchers, however, upon closer inspection we can appreciate how the 10 missile launchers (5 on each side of the mega particle cannon row) have been replaced by 16 smaller similar openings (8 on each side). My personal guess is that these are still missile launchers and probably retain the same role as the original's: anti-air defense.

Taking a look at artwork of The Origin versions of the Musai, both the standard and Valkyrie, we can appreciate that they also have large and "medium-sized" missile launchers:

http://i.imgur.com/kIXgqZj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vOkJJxw.jpg

While both have 2 large missile launchers, the standard model only has 2 "medium-sized" missile launchers, while the Valkyrie has 6. I'm emphasizing "-medium-sized" since these actually seem larger than those seen on the original Musai or Musai Late Type.

In fact, it caught my attention that besides these, The Origin Musais have some sort of vents on the same area as the missile launchers, next to their Mega Particle Cannon row, which happen to be similar to those seen on the Musai Final Type. So, what if these vent-like openings are actually multi-missile launchers, probably for smaller missile that also fulfill the role of anti-air defense? This would make sense specially in the case of the Musai Final Type, which otherwise seems to be stripped of any other weapon I do suspect that the opening on the front section for he ship could be medium-sized missile launchers).

In the case of The Origin Musai, while these ships have finally addressed the lack of rear defense (or supposedly the the lack of any AA defense at all as per the popular belief), mobile weapons approaching from the front or top of the ship would supposedly still be able to approach while dodging the larger anti-ship weapons. However, if these ships also had multi-missile launchers on these openings, then their defenses would be even more-well rounded.

Anyway, that's what I would like to think, as sort of saving grace to what otherwise would be a truly flawed design, specially in the era of MS warfare (and by the very group that developed it). Besides, when we get "new" ships such as the Jotunheim (MS Igloo) and Gagaul (MSV-R), which do have a more well-rounded weapon loadout, including AA defenses, having ships like the Musai class with little to no AA defenses doesn't make much sense.

[MythSearcher]

I have wondered about how poor the defenses of some Musai class ships seem to be, for instance, the Musai Final Type from 0080, which supposedly only has its two 2-barrel mega particle weapons as its sole means for attack or defense.

As you may know, the original Musai and 10 medium-sized missile launchers and 2 large ones (in the novels these missiles are actually given a particular name which I don't recall right now). While the large ones seem to anti-ship missiles, the medium-sized ones are seem sometimes working as anti-air defenses. The Musai Kai from Zeta and afterwards retains the same setup, and the Musai Late Type from 0083 seems to retain the medium-sized missile launchers, but the large ones seem to be gone. However, the Zanzibar II (also from 0080) seems to now have some sort of lid over its own large missile launcher (in the originals series, Char's Zanzibar fired some sort of spinning missile from its equivalent openings), which makes me suspect that those two lid-like things on the upper nose of the Musai Late Type might be the large missile launchers relocated to the front and know also covered as in the case of the Zanzibar II.

Regarding the use of these medium-sized missile for AA defense, I would like to consider that in principle it would be similar to the concept of the Alexandria class, which supposedly secondary beam guns for AA defense, weapons that would likely be able to destroy a MS in a single shot if hit, but likewise would have a lower rate of fire and probably also a hard time actually hitting a moving MS in the first place.

On the other hand, the newer version of the Musai from MS Igloo, which also served for the updated version o the Musai Kai used for Unicorn, is usually only credited for having the two large missile launchers, however, upon closer inspection we can appreciate how the 10 missile launchers (5 on each side of the mega particle cannon row) have been replaced by 16 smaller similar openings (8 on each side). My personal guess is that these are still missile launchers and probably retain the same role as the original's: anti-air defense.

Taking a look at artwork of The Origin versions of the Musai, both the standard and Valkyrie, we can appreciate that they also have large and "medium-sized" missile launchers:

http://i.imgur.com/kIXgqZj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vOkJJxw.jpg

While both have 2 large missile launchers, the standard model only has 2 "medium-sized" missile launchers, while the Valkyrie has 6. I'm emphasizing "-medium-sized" since these actually seem larger than those seen on the original Musai or Musai Late Type.

In fact, it caught my attention that besides these, The Origin Musais have some sort of vents on the same area as the missile launchers, next to their Mega Particle Cannon row, which happen to be similar to those seen on the Musai Final Type. So, what if these vent-like openings are actually multi-missile launchers, probably for smaller missile that also fulfill the role of anti-air defense? This would make sense specially in the case of the Musai Final Type, which otherwise seems to be stripped of any other weapon I do suspect that the opening on the front section for he ship could be medium-sized missile launchers).

In the case of The Origin Musai, while these ships have finally addressed the lack of rear defense (or supposedly the the lack of any AA defense at all as per the popular belief), mobile weapons approaching from the front or top of the ship would supposedly still be able to approach while dodging the larger anti-ship weapons. However, if these ships also had multi-missile launchers on these openings, then their defenses would be even more-well rounded.

Anyway, that's what I would like to think, as sort of saving grace to what otherwise would be a truly flawed design, specially in the era of MS warfare (and by the very group that developed it). Besides, when we get "new" ships such as the Jotunheim (MS Igloo) and Gagaul (MSV-R), which do have a more well-rounded weapon loadout, including AA defenses, having ships like the Musai class with little to no AA defenses doesn't make much sense.

Hmm, I don't give a lot of credit to AA missiles when under influence of M particles.
Close to the ship that is dispersing M particles(densest area), missiles will be almost equal to unguided rockets.(pre-programmed trajectary at best)
unless you launch hundreds of them, they are not likely to hit. You have better chance with AA guns which will be shooting at something like 100 shots a second to hit anything.(With WWII experience, we know that the hit rate will still be poor or very poor)

Also, the faction developing the idea may not really pay a lot of thought or faith in it either.
Again in WWII era, British actually developed the idea to use tanks, but they deemed it not useful enough and it is the Germans who get it into full use.
Japan noticed how they can utilize Aircraft carriers for sneaky attacks, but they still place too much importance in gun ships(like the cruiser and battleship) for sea combat. And their ships did not really emphasised in AA guns until pretty late in war. (The Yamato class actually had two 127mm secondary gun on both sides which got changed to AA guns and later further adding more AA guns towards the end of war)

We know the before the battle of Loum, Zeon placed less faith in MS, and Dozle actually preferred ship battle over MS. Only Kycillia trained MS pilots to the max. They may not have the resources and time to change the Musai design too much during the war, and the EFF didn't catch up with the MS trend untill October anyway.(so not much use for anti-MS AA guns)

[Gelgoog Jager]

If these missiles are indeed intended to provide AA defense, specially against MS or other approaching craft, couldn't the missile be wire-guided or heat-seeking? I'm thinking they could be similar to the Helldart missiles used by the Archangel from Gundam Seed, which are the smaller missiles fired from the rear section of the bridge and seem to be for AA defense, in contrast to the larger anti-ship missiles loaded into the rear legs of the ship.

I'm sure that in the original TV series and/or movies used several times the same animation showing a Musai hurling missiles to a target approaching to it form an angle (from the top IIRC), which do would indicate that they can be fired at an angle. In fact, in the first chapter of the Johnny Ridden MSV-R manga, a Tivvay class ship seems to be defending itself from the FA-78-1B approaching from the side by also firing many missiles.

On the other hand, if the MS Igloo version of the Musai has indeed switched to smaller but more numerous missile launchers (increased from 10 to 16 tubes), wouldn't that seemed a step closer to the scenario you propose of firing a larger number of missiles towards a target?

Now, regarding the development of the Musai series, we are told that the 0083 is referred to as a late type (LTP) Musai, which was supposed to be a more expensive, but also all around better model of the Musai meant to replace the original version. Not only did it add AA guns, but also increased the number of mega particle cannons and even forward facing launch catapults for its MS complement.

Then we have the 0080 model, which is referred to as the final type (FTP) Musai, which was supposedly a low cost version of the ship meant to be produced faster and more easily, allowing Zeon to try to reduce the gap between the size of their own fleet and the EF's. This model model is only credited for having 2 mega particle guns as its weapon loadout, which if true would be a significant step back from the original Musai, let alone the ambitious LTP model. On the other hand, the ship added thrusters to the lower main body of the ship, which make me question if it might have also been meant to be faster than other Musai variants. For what it's worth, the Tivvay from 0080 also seems to emphasize speed by adding more and larger thrusters, so maybe the FTP Musai was designed to be able to keep up with it.

Anyway, I want to point out again that the MSV-R manga shows that the Tivvay do has AA missiles, which are not mentioned as part of its weapon loadout, and therefore I would like to think it's possible that the same could be true for the FTP Musai.

As food for thought, the Grey Phantom, the Pegasus class ship from 0080, is also credited for having many missile launchers, even though we don't actually see anything resembling them, leaving for speculation if those vent-like openings on the sides of its legs could be them. For what it's worth, the front openings are located on the same spots as some of the missile launchers of the White Base.

[MythSearcher]

Wire guided might be possible but the range will be really limited and hard to launch a lot of them.

Heat seeking wouldn't work well as well, M particles not only disrupt radars, they also destroy electric components and thus the heat seeking sensors needed heavy protection, which in turn made the missiles less powerful or with shorter operation time.

I'd say if they launch mini-missiles like the FAZZ or Zssa, that will make a bit more sense in AA defence.

Oh well, in MSG they shoot large missiles at that kind of capacity in the beginning of large battles anyway...

In contrast, the 0083 and Igloo scenes are just plain dull when they needed AA fire, missiles or not.
when GP02A propelled itself STRAIGHT forward, without M particles dispersion, the ships only fired their main guns(against a MS? use common sense...) Igloo's Loum, Char chose the one ship without AA fire. Oh, and no missiles in both scenes. Later in 0083 we do see ships using missiles against Nuel Ziel(an successfully), but the GP02A scene is just so unrealistic and boring that I have no idea why so many are so attached to the following scene of Gato's famous I'm back phrase.

About the 0080 final type Musai, I think it started as a drawing error in MSG, where some background Musai only has 2 main gun turrets. The current explanation for this seems to be that there have been Musais that are modified to be more agile and fit the Mobile Cruiser position and another type removed a turret to fit 1 more MS. The 0080 model likely took that idea and elaborated it to have newly built ones specially fitted to be faster but with less fire power, yet more compartment for MS.

[Gelgoog Jager]

About the 0080 final type Musai, I think it started as a drawing error in MSG, where some background Musai only has 2 main gun turrets. The current explanation for this seems to be that there have been Musais that are modified to be more agile and fit the Mobile Cruiser position and another type removed a turret to fit 1 more MS. The 0080 model likely took that idea and elaborated it to have newly built ones specially fitted to be faster but with less fire power, yet more compartment for MS.

I recall Mark's article on the matter:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/musai.html

However, both the animation (one of Kycillia's fleet 3 turret Musais deploys 3 standing Rick Doms) and the more recent MSV-R series suggest that not only MS can stand up inside the hangar of the classic Musai, but also that they can fit at least 3 units the size of a Rick Dom or Gelgoog.

On the other hand, the newer MS Igloo version do uses a similar setup to what Mark proposed, by making the hangar longer and fitting 1 MS lying down on the ceiling of the MS hangar and a row of 2 MS lying on the floor. The spot that would be for the 2nd MS on the ceiling is supposedly a retrieval hatch for MS, and supposedly not intended for keeping a 4th MS stored.

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/gcl6_p.htm
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_50.jpg
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_51.jpg

As a bonus, Komusai can now hold 3 MS (there's enough room to cram 4 though) and even has a rear hatch to deploy units in the same fashion as the MS Igloo Gaw, which the Jotunheim team used for the YMT-05:

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_41.jpg
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_42.jpg

Back to the Musai FPT, considering it seems to lack a Komusai, I do would be willing to think that it can fit more MS on its hangar in order to compensate.

However, this also made me realize something: if the Musai FPT doesn't have a Komusai, then it doesn't need exhaust vents like those of the original Musai, which are only used when the Komusai takes off. In such case, then openings on the Musai FPT which are located on the equivalent spots must be something else.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, the Gray Phantom doesn't have clearly identifiable missile launchers, but it do has similar openings on the area where the forward facing missile launcher's of the White Base are located. Therefore, if the Gray Phantom do has missile launchers listed an those openings seem to be likely candidates for being the missile launchers, then I would propose that the same kind of opening serves the same role for the Musai FPT.

[MythSearcher]

I recall Mark's article on the matter:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/musai.html

However, both the animation (one of Kycillia's fleet 3 turret Musais deploys 3 standing Rick Doms) and the more recent MSV-R series suggest that not only MS can stand up inside the hangar of the classic Musai, but also that they can fit at least 3 units the size of a Rick Dom or Gelgoog.

On the other hand, the newer MS Igloo version do uses a similar setup to what Mark proposed, by making the hangar longer and fitting 1 MS lying down on the ceiling of the MS hangar and a row of 2 MS lying on the floor. The spot that would be for the 2nd MS on the ceiling is supposedly a retrieval hatch for MS, and supposedly not intended for keeping a 4th MS stored.

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/gcl6_p.htm
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_50.jpg
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_51.jpg

As a bonus, Komusai can now hold 3 MS (there's enough room to cram 4 though) and even has a rear hatch to deploy units in the same fashion as the MS Igloo Gaw, which the Jotunheim team used for the YMT-05:

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_41.jpg
http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_42.jpg

Back to the Musai FPT, considering it seems to lack a Komusai, I do would be willing to think that it can fit more MS on its hangar in order to compensate.

However, this also made me realize something: if the Musai FPT doesn't have a Komusai, then it doesn't need exhaust vents like those of the original Musai, which are only used when the Komusai takes off. In such case, then openings on the Musai FPT which are located on the equivalent spots must be something else.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, the Gray Phantom doesn't have clearly identifiable missile launchers, but it do has similar openings on the area where the forward facing missile launcher's of the White Base are located. Therefore, if the Gray Phantom do has missile launchers listed an those openings seem to be likely candidates for being the missile launchers, then I would propose that the same kind of opening serves the same role for the Musai FPT.

Well, I realised that more space doesn't always mean more MS, but more space to work with the MSs.
This is useful since the maintenance and repairs actuall needed a lot of space, not only you needed space to spread out the parts, but also needed paths to move repaired and malfunction parts as well as space to test out the fixed parts. Cramming tightly simply isn't the way craft carriers work to their fullest potential. So a faster ship(with less mass) and a more spacious working dock for the mechanics to work with should make a more efficient ship.

I don't think the Musai FPT lacks a Komusai, don't get me wrong, I am all for the FPT to lack a Komusai considering the situation towards the end of OYW. (Zeon retreated from Earth and Komusais really don't have much use anymore and likely added more mass and less efficient)
However, I've always thought of the bottom part of the Musai FPT looked like it still has some kind of better hid Komusai, just sharper.(Inline with the Musai FPT looks) At least the game Gihren's Greed's Musai FPT has Komusai equipped.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I guess this is a similar case to the rule of the dumb we have come up with regarding Gryps era warships being able to store 50% more MS than their standard capacity, if they situation requires it. the best example is the Salamis Kai, which is meant to carry 4 MS, yet it can operate with 6 if needed to. In the later case, I certainly imagine that it must be a nightmare for the maintenance crew to work in a hangar meant for 4 machine scrammed with 6.

Still, given that the Musai FPT lacks any official AA weapons, the normal assumption would be that it would need to rely on its MS complement for defense purposes, in which case having a larger MS capacity do would be justified in order to have a few MS dedicated solely on the defense of the ship.

Following that line of thought, and assuming that Mark's theory about the removal of the Musai's 3rd turret is right regarding an increase in the size of the MS hangar, then we could assume that the Musai FPT do can hold more MS than a 3 turret standard Musai, which as per the animation can already store 3 Rick Doms. I don't know if it could I crease the capacity up to 8 MS though, which is the highest number I have seen in some sources for the Musai MS capacity.

I do think it's likely that Zeon seeked to have ships with greater MS capacity during the last stages of the war, specially when we look at the Dolos, Zanzibar Kai (MSV-R) or even its more direct competition, the Musai LPT.

As for the Komusai FPT, I actually like the design:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Komus ... skin=oasis

However, I also think that for the context in which it was designed and produced, not having one makes more sense. As you said, at that point not only Zeon has been pushed back to space, but also not having a Komusai should result in a lower cost, which is one of the main reasons this particular variant was pushed ahead of the much better, but also more costly, Musai LPT (I like to think that it would essentially be a similar cost reduction measure as the removal of the core block system for the GM).

[MythSearcher]

I guess this is a similar case to the rule of the dumb we have come up with regarding Gryps era warships being able to store 50% more MS than their standard capacity, if they situation requires it. the best example is the Salamis Kai, which is meant to carry 4 MS, yet it can operate with 6 if needed to. In the later case, I certainly imagine that it must be a nightmare for the maintenance crew to work in a hangar meant for 4 machine scrammed with 6.

Still, given that the Musai FPT lacks any official AA weapons, the normal assumption would be that it would need to rely on its MS complement for defense purposes, in which case having a larger MS capacity do would be justified in order to have a few MS dedicated solely on the defense of the ship.

Following that line of thought, and assuming that Mark's theory about the removal of the Musai's 3rd turret is right regarding an increase in the size of the MS hangar, then we could assume that the Musai FPT do can hold more MS than a 3 turret standard Musai, which as per the animation can already store 3 Rick Doms. I don't know if it could I crease the capacity up to 8 MS though, which is the highest number I have seen in some sources for the Musai MS capacity.

I do think it's likely that Zeon seeked to have ships with greater MS capacity during the last stages of the war, specially when we look at the Dolos, Zanzibar Kai (MSV-R) or even its more direct competition, the Musai LPT.

As for the Komusai FPT, I actually like the design:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Komus ... skin=oasis

However, I also think that for the context in which it was designed and produced, not having one makes more sense. As you said, at that point not only Zeon has been pushed back to space, but also not having a Komusai should result in a lower cost, which is one of the main reasons this particular variant was pushed ahead of the much better, but also more costly, Musai LPT (I like to think that it would essentially be a similar cost reduction measure as the removal of the core block system for the GM).

My guess would be 6 MS for the Musai FPT.
Let me rationalize a bit on the Komusai FPT first. Not canon, just my own speculations.
The Musai FPT may fairly have a design with a Komusai, since the design period would still be in mid to mid-late OYW, say, Sept~Oct 0079. You simply can't build a dozen of 250m ship in 2 months, okay, maybe you can in UC0079, but even the EFSF only build around 80 during the year (Which they launched towards the end of the War) All of these are old designs with little modifications, not radical redesigns like the Musai LPT and FPT.
So when the FPT was designed, the Zeon may still have plenty Earth bases(before Odessa), they are still seemingly winning the War, but they needed ships with larger MS compartments and better support to their troops on Earth. So the Komusai would still be a must. Things turned after Odessa, but for a while they still needed to support ground troops, even just for pulling them out of Earth, so Komusais were still pretty important.
But what about after that? In mid-late Nov 0079, You probably have a lot of Musais lacking Komusais, many being shot down in operation or simply pinned down on Earth without possibillity to survive in a launch.
I'd be really tempted to have some kind of plan to convert these Musais into ships without the Komusai, but a large MS compartment. It will not be efficient since the two compartments are separated and hard to share resources, but you have the ships, and you need more MS in the field, why not?
Musais still on the production line may get direct modifications instead of a Komusai, yes, I'm talking about the LPT and FPTs.
If you can stuff 2-4 MS in the Komusai(with pretty bad logistics if you really do 4), the extra space for the Komusai itself will be pretty nice for 4 MS, all you need are walls and the supporting tools.

[JEFFPIATT]

The running theory on the late war Musai reducing the turrets to two from three was due to the Adoption of the Rick Dom as the Replacement Space use MS because of it's larger frame the Hangers needed to be expanded on later models to fit the new larger ms being used. The Removal of the Komusai shuttles may have been both an cost saving measure and an reaction to the Zanzibar-class being deployed as it was basically an full Space Battleship that could do reentry like an space shuttle. The war situation switching would have also helped kill new komusai builds with most late build musai class ships being deployed with the docking port empty or fitted with an incomplete dummy unit where the ship is built and docked but the systems needed to function as an independent ship are not installed. Basically leaving it as an storage container and the few remaining docked being used as lifeboats or ship to ship transports.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Unlike the Musai FPT, from which we see somewhere along 3 dozen ships in the 0083 OVAS among the Delaz, Cima and Axis fleets, we only see 3 Musai LPTs, including the one seeing being evicted form Side 6 in the news. Same could be said about the Graf Zeppelin being the only official Tivvay class ship.

Given that we know that even late during he war Zeon was still working on developing and producing new ships, ranging from the Dolos class to the Gwanban class, the later which was said to have been completed just before the end of the war, but was not ready to participate in the final battle at A Baoa Qu, I would not be surprised if the Musai LPT and Tivvay are also late designs.

Also, let's not forget that these ships were supposedly built in order to shore up Zeon's fleet numbers so they could fight on more even grounds against the larger EF fleet. This would imply that these ships were built in response to the EF launching their rebuilt fleet from Jaburo into space. At such point Zeon would come to realize that they were again at a numerical disadvantage in space, after months of having retained superiority ever since they crippled the EFSF during the Battle Loum and forcing the remnants of the EFSF fleet to hole up at Luna II. Essentially this would be the shift from the overall better Musai LPT.

Still, I do agree that the Musai FPT would likely make up for its reduced armament with a larger MS capacity. I would also like to think that that the unused space for the Komusai could be used somehow. For instance, IIRC The Origin version of the Musai uses a rear hatch below the MPC turrets for launching some of its MS. The MS Igloo version of the Musai doesn't seem to have such hatch, however, the Komusai's rear hatch seems to be aligned with a hatch a hard to seen hatch on the spot it connects with the Musai:

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/p/400ms_43.jpg

So perhaps the lower main body of the Musai do has some storage/hangar space for additional MS units. By the way, The Origin Komusai doesn't have an equivalent rear hatch:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fUt0zGDazAY/V ... 6%2529.jpg

Now, I think MS Igloo might have actually provided us a good justification for discontinuing the Komusai for later Musai models in the form of the Hotol:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

As you can observe from the image, the Hotol seems to be heavily based on the Komusai II, specially the booster section. What makes the Hotol different from a Komusai is that the booster is integrated into the ship, therefore allowing it to leave Earth's atmosphere unassisted. It also has storage space for transporting MS:

http://www.universalcentury.it/images/m ... otol_7.jpg

Therefore the Hotol actually fits nicely in the overall picture if we assume that it was designed after the Komusai II, which would have served as its base model, thus explaining why a Musai model designed after the Musai LPT would no longer need a Komusai. Instead that area could be used for storing additional MS.

I do would like to think that if the Tivvay and Musai FPT ever reappear in an animated works, that they could also be given launch catapults, which Zeon only began to implement very late into the conflict (ex: Dolos and Zanzibar Kai from MSV-R). Such catapults could be like those on the Musai LPT, with the Tivvay having two at the front, while the Musai FPT could have a single one in the area where the Komusai would have been located at.

One last thing: couldn't Zeon have applied the same measure as the EF in the 0081 OVA and somehow made use of the long flat section below the ships for having some additional external MS beds? That area could even be used to store fighter/bombers, Mobile Pods and/or MAs as needed, instead of remaining unused (and unprotected) and limiting the storage of such other craft to transport ships, and/or potentially sacrificing dedicated MS hangar space to accommodate other vehicles/weapons. The Big Gun, Skiure or even Skute SFS are other examples of support equipment that a Musai could strap below its main body, or even in the area below the rear MS hangar where HLVs can be carried around.

[Nebfer]

Well my brief thoughts on the various types of the Musai is that the Late production type (0083) is that to me it seems that it was either developed just before the war, a rationalization of the need for better defenses, when a war seemed likely (and or perhaps with some experience in MS ops with current units (i.e. the better MS arrangement?)). Or just after it started (perhaps after Lum but before they started landing), with some lessens learned in the brief but sharp space combat. Basically I see it Zeon went as such; It looks like war will be coming with the Feds, they do have a lot of ships, we might not have the numbers so better make ours better, they also have a lot of fighters and where not to sure how well our new MS will deal with them so some better defenses is called for. Speaking of MS we have been using them a bit now and the guys would like some improvements to their handling and maintenance facility. or something like that...


The Final production type (0080), I would agree is one developed and produced at some point during the war, likely sometime before the Gundam showed up but after Zeon has landed troops when it seemed that the Feds where not giving up so easily. I would also agree that the removal of a turret to improve MS operations is likely also a given.

"Zeon admiral" You know this war might last a bit longer than we thought, and the EF can out produce us, so wee need to make more ships, but the current Musais (0083 type) are to expensive to build in the numbers we need (not to mention are taking a bit longer to build as well), but even the "standard" could use an update, better speed, improved MS handling, cut a turret to cut costs as well as freeing up a bit of room to upgrade the MS facility's (perhaps we can upgrade the guns a bit to compensate for the loss of weapons -perhaps not implemented but intended), modify hull shapes to simplify production, drop the Komusai as redundant (we have other systems that can be used in it's place) further simplifying production... and so on...

[Jameedaark]

Wire guided might be possible but the range will be really limited and hard to launch a lot of them.

Heat seeking wouldn't work well as well, M particles not only disrupt radars, they also destroy electric components and thus the heat seeking sensors needed heavy protection, which in turn made the missiles less powerful or with shorter operation time.

I'd say if they launch mini-missiles like the FAZZ or Zssa, that will make a bit more sense in AA defence.

Oh well, in MSG they shoot large missiles at that kind of capacity in the beginning of large battles anyway...

In contrast, the 0083 and Igloo scenes are just plain dull when they needed AA fire, missiles or not.
when GP02A propelled itself STRAIGHT forward, without M particles dispersion, the ships only fired their main guns(against a MS? use common sense...) Igloo's Loum, Char chose the one ship without AA fire. Oh, and no missiles in both scenes. Later in 0083 we do see ships using missiles against Nuel Ziel(an successfully), but the GP02A scene is just so unrealistic and boring that I have no idea why so many are so attached to the following scene of Gato's famous I'm back phrase.

About the 0080 final type Musai, I think it started as a drawing error in MSG, where some background Musai only has 2 main gun turrets. The current explanation for this seems to be that there have been Musais that are modified to be more agile and fit the Mobile Cruiser position and another type removed a turret to fit 1 more MS. The 0080 model likely took that idea and elaborated it to have newly built ones specially fitted to be faster but with less fire power, yet more compartment for MS.

I agree with Geelgog Jager. I think that IR missiles are used in Gundam too as antiship and AA support. Because of the Minowsky particles, they are unaccurate and not so powerful because of the protection of electronics from Minowsky interference (but all the electronics we see in gundam are protected), but they are used along with conventional rocket, conventional ammo and mega cannons. We see them in MSG used by naval units, we see them used in 0083 used by defense satellites in the Sea of Solomon, etc, etc.

[MythSearcher]

I agree with Geelgog Jager. I think that IR missiles are used in Gundam too as antiship and AA support. Because of the Minowsky particles, they are unaccurate and not so powerful because of the protection of electronics from Minowsky interference (but all the electronics we see in gundam are protected), but they are used along with conventional rocket, conventional ammo and mega cannons. We see them in MSG used by naval units, we see them used in 0083 used by defense satellites in the Sea of Solomon, etc, etc.

I wonder if IR missiles are any better than rockets (with a pre-programmed path), we see IR missiles used by ground troops, but in MSG most missiles fired by ships are pretty much just going in a straight line, while missiles fired in quantity like the GP03 88/108 micromissiles or ZZ, FAZZ, Zssa, etc. are more random, they don't seem to collide with each other thus they should be more like pre-programmed to fly in a set path towards a certain point before self-exploding.

IR missiles have a rather short range IRL in the atmosphere because of rayleigh scattering but not so in space, however, IR will likely be similarly short ranged under the influence of Minovsky particles since the I-Field scatters IR and the signal will not be as strong. In some case, it might even be shorter because the influence of the M particle seems to be more than air when in high density, and the uneven distribution of M particles might make it even harder to locate the source of IR signals.

[Jameedaark]

Indeed, the IR missiles in gundam are for sure very unaccurate. Probably they have a camera that is an IR with a discrimination of the image, with a better camera and a.i. tecnology of today missiles.
Probably the anti ship missile have final IR discrimination but also a programmed path when launched by the personnel and some kind of laser guidance when is possible.
AA missiles probably are the same but with a very short range.
The density of M particles anf I-field hinder the precision of missile, so in Gundam they are very little used on MS but remain in use on ships and MA.
The 108 micromissile probably have some programmed and IR sensor, otherwise, if they are only rockets, they are useless. Infact we see the zakus try to escape but they are reached by the micromissiles.

Here some examples:
0083
https://ibb.co/rGPKy7h
https://ibb.co/hfytxhH
https://ibb.co/LPvfx93
https://ibb.co/7n3Mbzz
108 missiles
https://ibb.co/3MqNbmY
MSG
https://ibb.co/4ThVwpB
https://ibb.co/xJVCQgH
https://ibb.co/16q7dMV
https://ibb.co/wBdXTq2
https://ibb.co/qyLVqyG
https://ibb.co/RDzsTy5
https://ibb.co/7n3Mbzz
https://ibb.co/18507GZ

[Jameedaark]

I agree with Geelgog Jager. I think that IR missiles are used in Gundam too as antiship and AA support. Because of the Minowsky particles, they are unaccurate and not so powerful because of the protection of electronics from Minowsky interference (but all the electronics we see in gundam are protected), but they are used along with conventional rocket, conventional ammo and mega cannons. We see them in MSG used by naval units, we see them used in 0083 used by defense satellites in the Sea of Solomon, etc, etc.

I wonder if IR missiles are any better than rockets (with a pre-programmed path), we see IR missiles used by ground troops, but in MSG most missiles fired by ships are pretty much just going in a straight line, while missiles fired in quantity like the GP03 88/108 micromissiles or ZZ, FAZZ, Zssa, etc. are more random, they don't seem to collide with each other thus they should be more like pre-programmed to fly in a set path towards a certain point before self-exploding.

IR missiles have a rather short range IRL in the atmosphere because of rayleigh scattering but not so in space, however, IR will likely be similarly short ranged under the influence of Minovsky particles since the I-Field scatters IR and the signal will not be as strong. In some case, it might even be shorter because the influence of the M particle seems to be more than air when in high density, and the uneven distribution of M particles might make it even harder to locate the source of IR signals.

About "M particle seems to be more than air when in high density"?
Where do you have find this evidence?
Regards

[Seto Kaiba]

About "M particle seems to be more than air when in high density"?
Where do you have find this evidence?

Well, in sufficient density they act as heat shielding inside of Minovsky reactors, for one...

[Jameedaark]

About "M particle seems to be more than air when in high density"?
Where do you have find this evidence?

Well, in sufficient density they act as heat shielding inside of Minovsky reactors, for one...

Yes, in the reactor. The reactor is enclosed by i-field and magnetic fields.
But into the vacuum of space they disperse at high velocity.
I don't think that in space, m particles have density like air, otherwise we would witness phenomena of aerodynamic resistance on bullets and vehicles…

[MythSearcher]

Yes, in the reactor. The reactor is enclosed by i-field and magnetic fields.
But into the vacuum of space they disperse at high velocity.
I don't think that in space, m particles have density like air, otherwise we would witness phenomena of aerodynamic resistance on bullets and vehicles…

I am just talking about its density equivalent against light.
M Particles dispersed at battle density will affect even visible light and creates kinda a fogged vision, in reactor density it does not just diffracts IR but almost completely blocks it.
M Particles are much less massive than air particles, but their ability to affect EM waves are much greater.

Also, their dispersion is slowed by its own EM charge, hence forming the I-Field lattice.
During battle, you likely see pockets of fogs where M missiles and particle scattering units released M particles, and while not really having a lot of effect on bullets and vehicles because of their functionally zero mass when stationary, they do affect IR and the uneven density will make it hard to analysis where the actual target is.
Within 40km of the dispersal, radio waves are completely blocked, and within 100km, it gets really jammed and signals can only be sent in sound(requires more data to transmit visual information and likely more loss) This 100km radius sphere will stay that way for a while(at least in terms of combat effectiveness, so a reasonable estimate will be more than a few dozens of minutes?) So there is a density difference and at least towards the centre, the density is likely still high enough to affect IR.

[Jameedaark]

Yes, I agree.
About the topic of the post and usage of AA missiles, I think that they are used as we see in the animation.
If they had no type of guidance system they would have called them rockets or grenades, as they rightly do with other weapons.
In the scenes we see that the missile launchers have some driving system, since in some cases they are launched and make engagement maneuvers towards the targets. This is certainly not an active or semi-active guided missile. Maybe ir or laser. However, mine are all speculations of an enthusiast and I ask you what you think.
Best regards

[Seto Kaiba]

They likely use inertial guidance for the majority of their range and switch to something else for terminal guidance like infrared or active radar once they're close enough for Minovsky particle interference to not by a significant issue.